[key-pusa]

@flexxx, spoken like a true scientist. When it comes to God, I must admit I'm very confused. Some days I feel like there's a God, and some days I just wonder. I've taken your position many times, and lately, it's the most predominant position I've taken when it comes to God. We all need to believe in SOMETHING as humans, or else we probably couldn't handle all the stress and pain we experience everyday. Science does explain a lot of phenomena that were considered supernatural back in the day, although it doesn't explain everything...yet. Sometimes, I don't even wanna think about stuff like this. I'll never have an answer, so what's the point?

[ATLian]

>I think the notion of fair does not exist with God but He is a
>just GOd..

PeterMauMau,

did you think before you wrote this? Your statement is a glaring contradiction! If the notion of fairness doesn't exist with something, then that something cannot be just!



>I.e Do you think the father who raped the child shall be
>blameless in God\s Eyes..

Peter, let me quote you what god directed the Israelites to do to the Midianites after they conquered them:

Numbers 31:17 - 18: "Now therefore KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But ALL THE WOMEN CHILDREN, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

To rephrase in kawaida Engligh, god told them to kill every little boy, and every little girl apart from the virgins. They were allowed and encouraged to keep the virgins for themselves. I guarantee you that every sexual act that took part between the Israelite soldiers and the captured Midianite girls was RAPE, no matter how you want to look at it. I'm sure none of those 5, 6 and 10 year old girls wanted to leave their families and homes in Midian and spend the rest of their lives having sex with some 40 year old Israeli soldier. No way! But the raping was all done under god's blessings. In fact those men who refused to kill the boys and rape the virgins angered god so much that he sent a plague that destroyed them.

So to asnwer your question: As absurd and retarded as this comment may seem, some fathers who rape children are seen as blameless in god's eyes!

[flexxxx]

thats exactly what i was saying key pusa , not knowing something can drive you mad. trying to know it can drive you mad. but trust me one day we will explain a lot of things we consider supernatural today.
To be honest i prefer to be one of the ones seeking the answers.
one thing that does annoy me is that when i do good deeds to people, they keep telling me that god inspired me to do them.
i live by a motto of do to somone what you would like them to do to you. please do not get me wrong, as to mean i only do something good expecting something good in return. to me this is my sacrifice
this is my guide to life.
No diety inspires me to do anything good.

ill tell you an intresting story about how i stopped going to church.

My pastor (in uk ) uned to like me a lot id hate to gloat but i possess a calm caracter. he always used to send people in trouble to me to pray for them. and it pained me that i had pretended to belive in god for so long that people actually started to see " Him " through me. something ill never understand coz offcourse "being good " is subjective to whoever annalizes the deed. anyway this was getting to me as i naturally hate lying and prolonged lying, no matter what your religion race or culture does get to you. anyway one day i just went and told him im praying for people to belive in something i dont belive in. im lying to them. and i choose to do the honest thing and tell him to stop getting people to come for prayers. if its councelling they want, id be happy to listen and get practical ways of solving their problems.
anywya this did not go down too well. apparently i had demons which needed casting out.
im sure you wount be surprised to learn i dont belive in them either. so i had to go.

my point is, if we took more responsibility for our actions and tried to learn from them, the world would be a better place. ive heard people go oh i raped her because the devil took controll of me. no all you need is to tackle the issues that lead you to rape somone in the first place. not get prayed for or redeemed.

anywaya i hope this points answer your questions. and please dont be afraid to ask or question god, i think living your life lying to people and to yourself that you belive in something that was only implanted in you by popular culture or what i call birth place lottery ( this means if you were born in saudi arabia, you would be muslim. if you were born in rome you would be catholic. nothing to do with what you belive, rather what you were made to belive since you were born ) qualifys as a sin.

i just hope we can learn to give positive input into social problems rather than confine them in a 'sin' recycle bin

[ToothB]

Chotadipo,

Pole it kinda took me time to come up with answers to your question and as you must have noted by now, I use the bible a lot.Anyway I will start by taking you back to the garden then progressively take up your second concern.
God did not create humans to suffer. On the contrary, he endowed the first human couple, Adam and Eve, with perfect minds and bodies, prepared a delightful garden to serve as their home, and assigned them meaningful, satisfying work. (Genesis 1:27, 28, 31; 2:8) However, their continued happiness depended on their recognizing God's rulership and his right to decide what was good and what was bad. That divine prerogative was represented by a tree called "the tree of the knowledge of good and bad." (Genesis 2:17) Adam and Eve would demonstrate their subjection to God if they obeyed his command not to eat from that tree.
Tragically, Adam and Eve failed to obey God. A rebellious spirit creature, later identified as Satan the Devil, convinced Eve that it was not in her best interests to obey God. In fact, God was supposedly depriving her of something highly desirable: independence, the right to choose for herself what was good and what was bad. Satan claimed that if she ate of the tree, 'her eyes were bound to be opened and she was bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.' (Genesis 3:1-6; Revelation 12:9) Seduced by the prospect of independence, Eve partook of the forbidden fruit, and Adam soon did the same.
That same day, Adam and Eve began to experience the results of their rebellion. By rejecting divine rulership, they lost out on the protection and blessings that subjection to God had afforded them. God evicted them from Paradise and told Adam: "Cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground." (Genesis 3:17, 19) Adam and Eve became subject to sickness, pain, aging, and death. Suffering had become a part of human experience.—Genesis 5:29.
Its reasonable to ask,'Could God not have simply overlooked Adam and Eve's sin?' No, because that would have further undermined respect for his authority, perhaps encouraging future rebellions and resulting in even greater suffering. (Ecclesiastes 8:11)(Remember that unknown number of angels were watching) In addition, condoning such disobedience would have made God a party to wrongdoing. The Bible writer Moses reminds us: "God's works are perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he." (Deuteronomy 32:4) To be true to himself, God had to allow Adam and Eve to suffer the consequences of their disobedience.

Why did God not immediately destroy the first human couple along with Satan, the invisible instigator of their rebellion? He had the power to do so. Adam and Eve would not have produced offspring subject to a legacy of suffering and death. However, such a demonstration of divine power would not have proved the rightfulness of God's authority over his intelligent creatures.(Jesus and other angels) Furthermore, had Adam and Eve died childless, that would have signaled the failure of God's purpose to fill the earth with their perfect descendants. (Genesis 1:28) And "God is not like men . . . Whatever he promises, he does; he speaks, and it is done.—Numbers 23:19.
In his perfect wisdom, Jehovah God decided to allow the rebellion to proceed for a limited time. The rebels would have ample opportunity to experience the effects of independence from God. History would demonstrate beyond doubt mankind's need for divine guidance and the superiority of God's rule over man's or Satan's. At the same time, God took steps to ensure that his original purpose for the earth would be fulfilled. He promised that a "seed," or "offspring," would come who would 'bruise Satan in the head,' eliminating once and for all his rebellion and its damaging effects.—Genesis 3:15.
Jesus Christ was that promised Seed. At 1 John 3:8, we read that "the Son of God was made manifest . . . to break up the works of the Devil." This he did by laying down his perfect human life and paying the ransom price to redeem Adam's children from inherited sin and death. (John 1:29; 1 Timothy 2:5, 6) Those who truly exercise faith in Jesus' sacrifice are promised permanent relief from suffering. (John 3:16; Revelation 7:17.

To answer your second concern of why God needed time to proove? Remember that Adam and Eve rebelled against God, they challenged his sovereignty, that is, his right to rule. Jehovah could have destroyed them and started over with another couple, but that would not have settled the issue of whose rulership is right and best for people. Granted time to develop their societies according to their own ideas, humans would demonstrate beyond any doubt whether rulership independent from God could ever be successful.

What do thousands of years of human history tell us? For all those centuries, people have tried many kinds of social, economic, political, and religious systems. However, wickedness and suffering have continued. In fact, 'wicked men have advanced from bad to worse,' especially in our time.—2 Timothy 3:13.

The 20th century saw a peak of scientific and industrial achievements. But it also saw the worst suffering in the entire history of the human race. And no matter what medical advances are made, the law of God still holds true: Humans separated from God—the source of life—get sick, grow old, and die. How clearly it has been proved that humans cannot 'direct their own steps'!