[Wantai]

There has been a big row in Britain after a cabinet minister - Jack Straw urged muslim women to remove their veils in order to ease community relations. God knows how!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5411954.stm

I am left to wonder if Jack Straw know why they wear it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5411320.stm

The veil seems to be an ongoing debate all over Europe

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5411320.stm

A muslim woman was attacked in Liverpool by some guy and her veil removed from her head. Muslim leaders are blaming Jack Straw for this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...de/5415478.stm

This discussion has stirred a lot of debate. what's your take?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5412182.stm

[satjas]

If god or allah in this case wanted women not to be seen ie their bodies not seen, allah would have created them with a veil. But It didn't. allah made them perfectly 'nutt baked'!!!! And that goes for men too.

For a long time in our society people have respected and lived along other communities without much interference on a personal level. However when one community wants to stand out and expect favours not applicable to the rest then the masses will respond.

Jack Straw is only reiterating what many people in England feel. Even in public demonstrations muslims declare their want of a muslim nation. Where else in the world have you heard of a 'muslim parliament'. Do we have a Christian parliament? a Hindu one? a jewish parliament? No! because none of these communities want to segregate themselves, they rather want to integrate with the rest. Muslims on the other hand, claim to want to integrate but still demand to wear the full veil which is not even stipulated in the kooran by their own admission. They want to have time out in special rooms allocated to them for prayer.......c'mon why not something for the christians too, the hindus? the sikhs? Do these people pray less or have less of a need of God?

In this day and age people want to know reasons as to why things are done, they need detail. They need plausible answers. Islam cannot give them that hence they (islamists) resort to the banner 'you're being islamophobic'. That in itself is an oxymoron. How can one be phobic to an ideology??? I can understand homophobic or claustrophobic or even 'muslimophobic' to coin a new term....but islamophobic?????

That is why people are questioning....asking, getting answers......until this baseless faith comes crushing down. Within 30 years the next generation will not tolerate such religious nonsense. In this age of information they willl gain knowledge beyond the grasp of their elders. The elders will not be able to answer young kids how it feels to a girl at the age of nine to be penetrated by a man of 52. They have no answers and will have none. That is why the world is waking up to a menace........an ideology that promotes violence, hatred , segragation and filth.

my two cents,

-the paradigm shifter

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[Coach]

>Jack Straw is only reiterating what many people in England
>feel.

Yes, even Muslims feel that the veil these women wear is an extreme form and is NOT something recommended in Islam.


Even in public demonstrations muslims declare their want
>of a muslim nation. Where else in the world have you heard of
>a 'muslim parliament'. Do we have a Christian parliament? a
>Hindu one? a jewish parliament? No! because none of these
>communities want to segregate themselves, they rather want to
>integrate with the rest. Muslims on the other hand, claim to
>want to integrate but still demand to wear the full veil which
>is not even stipulated in the kooran by their own admission.
>They want to have time out in special rooms allocated to them
>for prayer.......c'mon why not something for the christians
>too, the hindus? the sikhs? Do these people pray less or have
>less of a need of God?


- In the UK, Jews and Hindus are protected by law, any remarks against them and you will find yourself in court answering some serious charges before you can say the word "lawyer". This protection is offered to Muslims.

- In the UK, Catholic and Jewish schools are encouraged but Muslims schools are being blocked, questionned and even shut down

- About prayers, you don't need to have time allocated to you. Islam is pretty flexible and if you are unable to pray prayers at its time then youcan combine them. For example, during your lunch break you can combine your midday prayers and your evening prayers and this combination is half the length of the normal prayers (this takes a maximum of five minutes).

- In the UK, most places have a multi-faith prayer room even airports so there is no problem praying since you can do them during your breaks (Hindus, Jews and other faiths use these facilities, but since they do not have regular prayers like Muslims, these rooms are used mostly by Muslims, but they are open to all and prayer is hardly an issue in the UK). The average prayer doesn't take more than a few minutes and this is not an issue at a workplace where most people have time for coffee and smoking breaks.




>In this day and age people want to know reasons as to why
>things are done, they need detail. They need plausible
>answers. Islam cannot give them that hence they (islamists)
>resort to the banner 'you're being islamophobic'. That in
>itself is an oxymoron. How can one be phobic to an ideology???
>I can understand homophobic or claustrophobic or even
>'muslimophobic' to coin a new term....but islamophobic?????


Anti-semitic means someone who is an anti-semite. This is hardly a rational term but is still used to describe those who discriminate Jews. Ironically, Arabs who are also semites are sometimes foolishly called anti-semites when they say something against Jews or the state of Israel.

According to the merriam-webster dictionary, homophobic means: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals. In this manner, one can be Islamophobic in many ways, somefear the faith because they don't know much about it (it's simply foreign and humans generally fear anything foreign) but there are those who discriminate against Muslims based on their faith either through treatment like your constant comments or discrimination at work and other places. I hope now you have a better understanding of the word.




>That is why people are questioning....asking, getting
>answers......until this baseless faith comes crushing down.

There have been atheists, pantheists and polytheists since the beginning of time. There have also been anthropomophists like the Pharaohs etc. Believing in a Being who you cannot see can be deemed irational by someone using scientific methods to prove His being. You believe in God but your claims are baseless to an atheist, so here you see that you are someone living in glass-house throwing stones.


>Within 30 years the next generation will not tolerate such
>religious nonsense. In this age of information they willl gain
>knowledge beyond the grasp of their elders. The elders will
>not be able to answer young kids how it feels to a girl at the
>age of nine to be penetrated by a man of 52. They have no
>answers and will have none. That is why the world is waking up
>to a menace........an ideology that promotes violence, hatred
>, segragation and filth.


Aaah, your main arsenal is seen again. I thought we settled this matter at length? Did you forget? Let me help you remember, back in the days, it was customary for girls to be married at a very young age. Especially among Semites like the Jews, this was a common practise. To help you view this in the correct light, look at the circumstances of the Prophet's marriage, can you find anyone who raised their voices during that time or even hundreds of years after that? There wasn't, until the Christian Orientalists with their "modern views" decided to judge history with the tools of today. I hope that helped you remember/

[Death]

>Aaah, your main arsenal is seen again. I thought we settled
>this matter at length? Did you forget? Let me help you
>remember, back in the days, it was customary for girls to be
>married at a very young age. Especially among Semites like the
>Jews, this was a common practise. To help you view this in the
>correct light, look at the circumstances of the Prophet's
>marriage, can you find anyone who raised their voices during
>that time or even hundreds of years after that? There wasn't,
>until the Christian Orientalists with their "modern views"
>decided to judge history with the tools of today. I hope that
>helped you remember/


Coach, this is a fallacious argument. The practice of an act without condemnation in the past or present, is not proof of the righteousness of the said act. In the past, Killing people because they were suspected of witchcraft was an acceptable common practice, that does not make the act right!

Now, while we can forgive most, due to the fact that it was ignorance that led them to commit the act in question, a problem comes when you tell me that the individual responsible, was a man who was supposedly in direct communication with the supposed source of all morality

[Coach]

>Coach, this is a fallacious argument. The practice of an act
>without condemnation in the past or present, is not proof of
>the righteousness of the said act. In the past, Killing people
>because they were suspected of witchcraft was an acceptable
>common practice, that does not make the act right!
>
>Now, while we can forgive most, due to the fact that it was
>ignorance that led them to commit the act in question, a
>problem comes when you tell me that the individual
>responsible, was a man who was supposedly in direct
>communication with the supposed source of all morality

What is "acceptable" and what is "not acceptable" in your books and what criteria do you use? Do we judge the people of the past according to the criteria of today? Jesus and other great men were shepherds, ware they ignorant because of that since young men today try to attain a 'white collar' job? Very few people could read or write 2000 years ago, were they part of the norm or deviating from it? In USA (the richest nation on earth), people are still facing the death penalty and in Europe that is seen as barbaric and backward. Is it a matter of opinion or is there a written law that makes a certain practise "wrong"?







"The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr" Prophet Muhammad PBUH

[Death]

>What is "acceptable" and what is "not acceptable" in your
>books and what criteria do you use? Do we judge the people of
>the past according to the criteria of today? Jesus and other
>great men were shepherds, ware they ignorant because of that
>since young men today try to attain a 'white collar' job? Very
>few people could read or write 2000 years ago, were they part
>of the norm or deviating from it? In USA (the richest nation
>on earth), people are still facing the death penalty and in
>Europe that is seen as barbaric and backward. Is it a matter
>of opinion or is there a written law that makes a certain
>practise "wrong"?

I suppose coach, let's start here: Do you think a grown man having sex with a nine year old is 'right'?

[Zelda]

>If god or allah in this case wanted women not to be seen ie
>their bodies not seen, allah would have created them with a
>veil. But It didn't. allah made them perfectly 'nutt
>baked'!!!! And that goes for men too.

:D going by this logic, @satjas, then we should all be walking around butt-naked in celebration of our freedom. are you?

[dadyamaru]

>If god or allah in this case wanted women not to be seen ie
>their bodies not seen, allah would have created them with a
>veil. But It didn't. allah made them perfectly 'nutt
>baked'!!!! And that goes for men too.


Again this shows how little your IQ is.
Please dont write bcoz u want to say something ,write bcoz u have something to say

>For a long time in our society people have respected and lived
>along other communities without much interference on a
>personal level. However when one community wants to stand out
>and expect favours not applicable to the rest then the masses
>will respond.

Correct, i dont understand why someone should get affected in faith which they dont proffess.
Cant u mind your own business.
>
>Jack Straw is only reiterating what many people in England
>feel. Even in public demonstrations muslims declare their want
>of a muslim nation. Where else in the world have you heard of
>a 'muslim parliament'. Do we have a Christian parliament? a
>Hindu one? a jewish parliament?

Simple because there's no religion like christianity, just show me in the bible where christianity is mentioned as a religion.
2nd point...Quran is the only book which has everything for mankind.
Jews & the so called christians they use man made law to make their judgement, while we use Allah guidance, cant u c the difference.


No! because none of these
>communities want to segregate themselves, they rather want to
>integrate with the rest. Muslims on the other hand, claim to
>want to integrate but still demand to wear the full veil which
>is not even stipulated in the kooran by their own admission.
>They want to have time out in special rooms allocated to them
>for prayer.......c'mon why not something for the christians
>too, the hindus? the sikhs? Do these people pray less or have
>less of a need of God?

Its a rhetorical question...doesnt need an answer

>
>In this day and age people want to know reasons as to why
>things are done, they need detail. They need plausible
>answers. Islam cannot give them that hence they (islamists)
>resort to the banner 'you're being islamophobic'. That in
>itself is an oxymoron. How can one be phobic to an ideology???
>I can understand homophobic or claustrophobic or even
>'muslimophobic' to coin a new term....but islamophobic?????

Excuse me? Why the hell do u need answers for something which doesnt concern you? its like demanding to know personal things about your neighbour.
Gosh this is pure hate against Islam


>That is why people are questioning....asking, getting
>answers......until this baseless faith comes crushing down.
>Within 30 years the next generation will not tolerate such
>religious nonsense. In this age of information they willl gain
>knowledge beyond the grasp of their elders. The elders will
>not be able to answer young kids how it feels to a girl at the
>age of nine to be penetrated by a man of 52. They have no
>answers and will have none. That is why the world is waking up
>to a menace........an ideology that promotes violence, hatred
>, segragation and filth.

Wotever u r talkin in chemistry we call it vapour.
It cannot happen....and if it does only in your sleep.
Havent you asked yourself with all this hate against Islam, Y is it p/ple r converting to Islam, churches changed to mosques?
ofcourse u will deny it but do i care?

>my two cents,
>
>-the paradigm shifter
>
>The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind
>denies it.

[dadyamaru]

>There has been a big row in Britain after a cabinet minister
>- Jack Straw urged muslim women to remove their veils in order
>to ease community relations. God knows how!
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5411954.stm
>
>I am left to wonder if Jack Straw know why they wear it.
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5411320.stm
>
>The veil seems to be an ongoing debate all over Europe
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5411320.stm
>
>A muslim woman was attacked in Liverpool by some guy and her
>veil removed from her head. Muslim leaders are blaming Jack
>Straw for this.
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...de/5415478.stm
>
>This discussion has stirred a lot of debate. what's your
>take?
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5412182.stm
>
>



Traditional Muslim populations will be more receptive to change that is based on Islamic principles of justice, as expressed in the Quran, than they will be to change that abandons religion altogether or confines it to private life
Dress should not bar Muslim women from exercising their Islam-guaranteed rights, like the right to be educated, to earn a living and to move about safely in society

Like the differences in our clothing from one region to another, Muslim women are diverse. Stereotypical assumptions about Muslim women are as inaccurate as the assumption that all American women are personified by the bikini-clad cast of "Baywatch." Anyone who has spent time interacting with Muslims knows that, despite numerous obstacles, Muslim women are active, assertive and engaged in society


It should be obvious that the critical element Muslim women need is freedom, especially the freedom to make choices that enable them to be independent agents of positive change. Choosing to dress modestly, including wearing a head scarf, should be as respected as choosing not to cover.
most Muslim women who cover by choice do so out of subservience to God, not to any human being.

[Coach]

Death,
>I suppose coach, let's start here: Do you think a grown man
>having sex with a nine year old is 'right'?

I asked numerous questions but you answer my questions with a question. Anyway, what you ask can not be asnwered in a YES/NO manner because you are using the values of the 21st century to judge something that hapenned in the 7th century. If you want to understand whether the Prophet was right or wrong, read further about the norms (regarding marriage) of the 7th century Arabia and the Semitic people. Also look further at how the life span has increased hence changing the way people view the different stages of life.