[reggie_woic]

>1) Because there is no god
>
>2) Because god created evil
>
>3) Because god is evil

therefore there is no evil? lol

[ATLian]

Reggie,

those were multiple choice answers, not a 3-part deduction...

I know evil exists. I know that in the Bible god clearly, unequivocally, unambiguously, explicitly and categorically states that he created evil:

Isaiah 45 vs 7: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things."

I therefore don't understand why a Christian would bother asking why evil exists or where it came from when it's right there in black and white!

[TeamManager]

3 yrs and 7 months later ......still asking the same questions.
:-)
:-)
:-)

[ATLian]

TM,

I think you're overly obsessed with me. You never address any of the issues I raise, you just attack or try to discredit me. You never ever debate issues - it's all about ATLian-this ATLian-that. If you notice, of all the 32 responses on this thread, you're the only one talking about other people. Everyone else is discussing religion, their beliefs, their stand, etc.

Come on man, you can do better than that. Tafadhali please respond to issues and leave your issues with me out of this. Please. If you have something to address to me personally, shoot me a private e-mail - the.atlian@gmail.com - or start a thread about me. For real, your immature crap of always going after me and completely ignoring the issue or topic at hand does get tired are really irritating after a while. When you attack me coz you can't defend your position, it says a lot about you. I'm sure you don't even read the entire list of replies, you just look for my replies so as to critique me. We aren't a bunch of primo school kids with petty issues here, we're discussing what arguably is the most important thing to mankind - religion! Let's keep this mature and topic-related!

For the rest - pole for that diatribe, but I'm sure some of you can identify with me based on TM's history of always attacking me and not discussing the issue at hand!

[ToothB]

To you Satjas,

You raised very valid questions after my piece and so allow me to handle one at a time in that order.

But first let me concern myself with who really is in control of the world.
Many people would answer the above question with a single word—God. But significantly, nowhere does the Bible say that either Jesus Christ or his Father are the real rulers of this world. On the contrary, Jesus said: "The ruler of this world will be cast out." And he added: "The ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me."—John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11.

So the ruler of this world is in opposition to Jesus. Who could this be?

A Clue From World Conditions
Despite the efforts of well-meaning humans, the world has suffered terribly throughout history. This causes thinking persons to wonder, as did the late editorial writer David Lawrence: "'Peace on earth'—nearly everybody wants it. 'Good will toward men'—almost all the peoples of the world feel it toward one another. Then what's wrong? Why is war threatened despite the innate desires of peoples?"

It seems a paradox, doesn't it? When the natural desire of people is to live at peace, they commonly hate and kill one another—and with such viciousness. Consider the cold-blooded excesses in monstrous cruelty. Humans have used gas chambers, concentration camps, flamethrowers, napalm bombs, and other heinous methods to torture and slaughter one another mercilessly.

Do you believe that humans, who long for peace and happiness, are capable, in themselves, of such gross wickedness against others? What forces drive men to such loathsome deeds or maneuver them into situations where they feel compelled to commit atrocities? Have you ever wondered whether some wicked, invisible power is influencing people to commit such acts of violence?

The Rulers of the World Identified
There is no need to guess at the matter, for the Bible clearly shows that an intelligent, unseen person has been controlling both men and nations. It says: "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." And the Bible identifies him, saying: "The one called Devil and Satan . . . is misleading the entire inhabited earth."—1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9.

On an occasion when Jesus was "tempted by the Devil," Jesus did not question Satan's role as the ruler of this world. The Bible explains what happened: "The Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: 'All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.' Then Jesus said to him: 'Go away, Satan!'"—Matthew 4:1, 8-10.

Think about this. Satan tempted Jesus by offering him "all the kingdoms of the world." Yet, would Satan's offer have been a real temptation if Satan was not actually the ruler of these kingdoms? No, it would not. And note, Jesus did not deny that all these worldly governments were Satan's, which he would have done if Satan did not have power over them. So, then, Satan the Devil really is the unseen ruler of the world! The Bible, in fact, calls him "the god of this system of things." (2 Corinthians 4:4) Yet, how did such a wicked person ever come into this powerful position?
The one who became Satan had been an angel created by God, but he became envious of God's position. He challenged God's rightful rulership. To this end he used a serpent as a mouthpiece to deceive the first woman, Eve,(I am aware that you question the existence of Adam and Eve and the answer to that will come later) and was thus able to get her and her husband, Adam, to do his bidding rather than obey God. (Genesis 3:1-6; 2 Corinthians 11:3) He also claimed he could turn all of Adam and Eve's yet unborn offspring away from God. So God allowed time for Satan to try to prove his claim, but Satan has not succeeded.—Job 1:6-12; 2:1-10.
Significantly, Satan is not alone in his rulership of the world. He was successful in persuading some of the other angels to join him in rebellion against God. These became demons, his spirit accomplices. The Bible speaks of them when it urges Christians: "Stand firm against the machinations of the Devil; because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but . . . against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places."—Ephesians 6:11, 12.
These unseen, wicked world rulers are determined to mislead all mankind, turning them away from the worship of God. One way wicked spirits do this is by promoting the idea of survival after death, even though God's Word clearly shows that the dead are not conscious. (This may be new to you but thats another story)(Genesis 2:17; 3:19; Ezekiel 18:4; Psalm 146:3, 4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) Thus, a wicked spirit, imitating the voice of one who has died, may talk with that one's living relatives or friends, either through a spirit medium or by a "voice" from the invisible realm. The "voice" pretends to be the departed one, yet it is actually a demon!
In addition, wicked spirits capitalize on the sinful bent of humans by promoting literature, movies, and television programs that feature immoral and unnatural sexual behavior. The demons know that wrong thoughts if not expelled from the mind will cause indelible impressions and lead humans to behave immorally—like the demons themselves.—Genesis 6:1, 2; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8; Jude 6.
True, many may scoff at the idea that this world is ruled by wicked spirits. But their disbelief is not surprising, since the Bible says: "Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light." (2 Corinthians 11:14) His most clever deception has been in blinding many to the fact that he and his demons really exist. But do not be deceived! The Devil and his demons are real, and you need to resist them continually.—1 Peter 5:8, 9.

I hope I have given you something to think about and your second question was to do with free will.Watch this space for a detailed and bible based answer.

[ToothB]

To you Satjas again,

I looked up free will and predestination in relation to God and I feel that you are missing something here.Let me first bring to mind the two concerns you raised.
First,"Is it very hard for you to understand that something 'free' cannot have a 'limit'???? This is where you now claim that God is imperfect and you will use reasons from the bible to justify this misguided concept" and second,"If i have freewill given to me by God, then can I express my freewill and say that I reject this very God who gave me the freewill in the first place????"

Consider how Jehovah God made us. “In God’s image he created [man]; male and female he created them,” states the Bible. (Genesis 1:27) Made in God’s likeness, we have the ability to reflect his qualities, such as love, justice, wisdom, and power. God has also given us the gift of free will, or freedom of choice. This makes us unique among his earthly creation. We can choose whether we will follow God’s moral guidance or not. That is why the prophet Moses could say: “I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him.”—Deuteronomy 30:19, 20.

The gift of freedom of choice, though, does not mean absolute freedom. It does not free us from the physical and moral laws (I will have them for you very soon)that God made for the stability and peace of the universe. These laws were set up for our good, and any violation of them could lead to serious consequences. Just think of what would happen if we chose to ignore the law of gravity and jumped off the roof of a tall building!—Galatians 6:7.

Freedom of choice also binds us with a restraint that creatures lacking such freedom do not have. The writer Corliss Lamont asks: “How can we attribute ethical responsibility to men, and punish them for wrongdoing, if we accept . . . that their choices and actions are predetermined?” Of course, we cannot. Instinct-driven animals are not held morally responsible for what they do, nor are computers deemed accountable for the functions they are programmed to perform. Freedom of choice, then, places upon us a heavy responsibility and makes us accountable for our actions.

How unloving and unjust Jehovah God would be if before we were born, he predetermined the course we would take and then held us responsible for our actions! He does not do this, for “God is love,” and “all his ways are justice.” (1 John 4:8; Deuteronomy 32:4) Having given us freedom of choice, he did not at the same time ‘determine from eternity whom he would save and whom he would damn,’ as believers in predestination assert. Freedom of choice precludes predestination.

The Bible clearly shows that the choices we make will alter our destiny. For example, God appeals to wrongdoers, saying: “Turn back, please, every one from his bad way and from the badness of your dealings . . . that I may not cause calamity to you.” (Jeremiah 25:5, 6) This appeal would be pointless if God had already fixed each individual’s destiny. Moreover, God’s Word states: “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah.” (Acts 3:19) Why would Jehovah ask people to repent and turn around if he knew beforehand that they could do absolutely nothing to change their destiny?

Consider also the apostle Paul’s words to his fellow believers. He wrote: “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left.” (Hebrews 10:26) Such a warning would be valueless if God had foreordained their destiny.

“[God] has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,” wrote the apostle Paul, “just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world . . . For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself.” (Ephesians 1:3-5) What has God foreordained, and what is the meaning of being selected “before the founding of the world”?

Humans usually need a plan of action in order to accomplish what they want to do. Predestination is linked with the idea that God must have a detailed plan for the universe wherein everything is predetermined. “It has seemed to many philosophers,” writes Roy Weatherford, “that anything less than a complete specification of every event would be incompatible with God’s Majesty.” Does God really need to specify every event in advance?

Being infinite in power and matchless in wisdom, Jehovah can meet any emergency or contingency that might result as his creatures exercise their free will. (Isaiah 40:25, 26; Romans 11:33) He can do this instantly and without forethought. Unlike fallible men with their limited abilities, Almighty God does not need a detailed, cut-and-dried plan that sets out beforehand the destiny of every individual on the earth. (Proverbs 19:21)

The ransom sacrifice of God’s Son, Jesus Christ, makes it possible for anyone who exercises faith in him to receive everlasting life. (John 3:16, 17; Acts 10:34, 35) “He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life,” says the Bible. “He that disobeys the Son will not see life.” (John 3:36) You can choose life by learning about God, his Son, and His will from the pages of the Bible and by applying what you learn. The person acting in accord with true wisdom recorded in God’s Word is assured that “he will reside in security and be undisturbed from dread of calamity.”—Proverbs 1:20, 33.

[satjas]

hey toothb,

you've just opened a pandoras box.......i am kinda busy at the moment but believe you me we shall pick up one point at a time from what you have written......

the paradigm shifter...