[teejay]

ATLian, neither God nor Christ asks us to perform such stunts. Maybe these guys who do this literaly interprete the words of Christ that everyone who wants to follow him must pick up his cross and come along.

Further to this i want you to know that the war that took place at the last hour of Christ time before his death was and is still unfathomable to many people. It requires much spiritual insight for one to undertand why Christ died and what actually caused his death on the cross. It is true that being nailed on the cross cannot instantly kill a person and that is why we find that the deaths of those who were crucfied under the Roman rule had their legs broken so as to hasten their deaths.

Christ's death however is strange just like you put it. Behind the scenes battles were being fought and it reached a time that Christ saw himself being aliented from his father due to the weightier sins of the world he was carrying.The forces of evil were determined to see him fail in his mission of redeminng the world. At this hour of great trial only two things, he must do; either save himself from the terrible pain as urged by the evil men below his cross of suffering , thus giving glory to satan and dooming the whole humanity or take up the pain while steadfastly keeping his faith in the father and bring forth salvation to humanity. ( see the book of John- his prayer at the Garden before his arrest) That prayer was repeated until bloodlike sweat oozed out of christ's brow.

Again we hear him cry out loud on the cross seeking to know why his father has foresaken him. It is still due to the nature of sin that he was carrying on our behalf, that he almost thought that he'd never please God. You see we joke about sin as if it is something simple and can be wished away just like dust into the bin. Well, before God, sin is loathed and hated greatly. Of all the pains therefore that Christ went through, none was more painful than the thought of being alienated from his father and thus his heart broke under such pain causing his death. It is scientifically true that a person can succumb to such terrible heart break. It is possible for one to die out of depression. Remeber prior to his death, Christ had also suffered massive beating under the guards which resulted into subsequent bleedings, add that to the amount of bleading on the Cross assorted with the depression and you have a perfect recipe for the cause of his death.

Also refer to Deut 16. ( in oder to help you understand some instances in the crucifiction of christ)

We see that even after Christ has arisen from death, he is yet to meet the father and does not allow mary to touch him, lest he be tainted again, before he has got the father's approval. The Sacrificial process must be okayed. This shows that the implications and consequences of sin is actually more serious than we humans can ever know.

On the Issue of Miracles and whether that alone gave Christ his position. I can only say that Maybe Reggie fell short in his elaboration. Pharoah's magicians deed the same and Satan himself can do that(it is unfortunate though). It is therefore not enough to say that performance of Miracles makes one God although it is part of God.That also does not diminish that fact that is still one with the father.

[ATLian]

>It is quiet clear to me that Satan will never rest until he
>has devoured the works of God. He Satan is now urging us
>subtly through Death to disregard the bible.

OK, that is funny. Death working in cahoots with Satan (a being he doesn't believe in) in order to make Christians disbelief the word of god, another being Death doesn't believe in. That's like saying Death is working with Spiderman so as to mess up Batman's marriage!



>The bible will always be our point of referrence until God
>says otherwise. Of course to an atheist this will not make
>sense.

TeeJay,

has god ever said that the Bible is his word or his point of reference? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I highly doubt it. It's MAN who said that the Bible was god's word, not god who said that the Bible was his word.

Don't forget that god didn't set up the Bible. A group of men met, went through many many books, and chose 66 of them to make up the Bible. If those men had so wanted, they'd have made the Bible with 96 books. Does that mean that the 33 books they dropped aren't god's word because the men decided that?

Let's be real - the Bible is what those founding fathers wanted it to be. That's why they dropped controversial books, like the ones that prove Jesus was married...

[milanya]

This reminds me of when I was watching a Lee Strobel show where a Jew and a Christian were arguing about the trinity. The Jew kept saying he didn't believe that the New Testament was a valid part of the bible, and the Christian kept trying to prove the attributes of Jesus using the New Testament.

In short = nobody wins

You cannot use the bible alone to argue with someone who doesn't believe in the bible.

[dadyamaru]

@ Teejay
Wacha kujifanya watutishia na kiswahili chako pesa nane

Kwanza...kitu gani unaweza thibitisha kuwa huyo mtu mliyekuwa naye ndani ya gari alikuwa muislamu?

Pili..tuseme pengine labda wamjua kwa jina.
Uislamu hauambatani na majina, Uislamu ni tabia nzuri zilizo nakiliwa ndani ya Quran.
Majina huambatana na kabila, km unakumbuka yule waziri wa zamani wa mambo ya nchi ya kigeni wa Iraq alikuwa anaitwa Tariq Aziz na hakuwa muislamu.


Pia wewe kabla hujakaa kitako kutuandikia hapa, fikiria kwanza.


Kweli hakuna kitu kijinga duniani km Elimu ya bure ya Narc

[ToothB]

Dadyamaru,


Are you really serious when you make such wild alegations?Let me give you a free history class on Jesus. nyani haoni nini?......however join my history lesson on Jesus.

JESUS CHRIST was a Great Teacher who lived in Palestine almost 2,000 years ago. Very little is known about his childhood. It is well attested, however, that when he was about 30 years of age, he started his ministry to "bear witness to the truth." (John 18:37; Luke 3:21-23) The four disciples who wrote accounts of his life focus on the three and a half years that followed.

During his ministry, Jesus Christ gave his disciples a command that could be an antidote to many of the world's ills. What was that? Jesus said: "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another." (John 13:34) Yes, the solution to many of mankind's problems is love. When, on another occasion, Jesus was asked which commandment is the greatest, he answered: "'You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.' This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this, 'You must love your neighbor as yourself.'"—Matthew 22:37-40.

Jesus showed us by words and deeds how to love God and fellow humans. Let us consider a few examples and see what we can learn from him.

His Teachings

In one of the best-known sermons in history, Jesus Christ told his followers: "No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other. You cannot slave for God and for Riches." (Matthew 6:24) Is Jesus' teaching about putting God first in our lives still practical today, when so many people believe that money solves all problems? True, we need money to get by. (Ecclesiastes 7:12) Yet, if we let "Riches" be our master, "the love of money" will control us, dominating our whole life. (1 Timothy 6:9, 10) Many who have fallen into this trap have ended up losing their family, their health, and even their lives.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus also taught his disciples how to show love for fellow humans. He said: "All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must likewise do to them." (Matthew 7:12) The word "men" that Jesus used here includes even one's enemies. In the same sermon, he said: "Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you." (Matthew 5:43, 44) Would not such love solve many of the problems that we face today? Hindu leader Mohandas Gandhi thought so. He is quoted as saying: "When [we] shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems . . . of the whole world." Jesus' teachings about love, if applied, can solve many of mankind's ills.

His Deeds
Not only did Jesus teach profound truths about how to show love but he also practiced what he taught. For example, he put the interests of others ahead of his own. One day Jesus and his disciples were so busy helping people that they had no time even to eat a meal. Jesus saw the need for his disciples to rest up a bit, and he took them to a lonely place. But when they got there, they found a crowd waiting for them. How would you have responded upon seeing a crowd who expected you to work when you felt that you needed a little break? Well, Jesus "was moved with pity for them" and "started to teach them many things." (Mark 6:34) This concern for others always moved Jesus to assist them.

Jesus did more for people than teach them. He also extended practical help. For example, on one occasion he fed more than 5,000 people who had been listening to him until late in the day. Soon after that, he fed another large crowd—this time more than 4,000—who had been listening to him for three days and had nothing left to eat. On the first occasion, he used five loaves of bread and two fishes, and on the latter, seven loaves and a few little fishes. (Matthew 14:14-22; 15:32-38) Miracles? Yes, he was a miracle worker.

Jesus also healed many ailing ones. He cured the blind, the lame, the lepers, and the deaf. Why, he even raised the dead! (Luke 7:22; John 11:30-45) Once a leper entreated him: "If you just want to, you can make me clean." How did Jesus respond? "At that he was moved with pity, and he stretched out his hand and touched him, and said to him: 'I want to. Be made clean.'" (Mark 1:40, 41) Through such miracles, Jesus demonstrated his love for the afflicted.

Do you find it hard to believe in Jesus' miracles? Some do. Remember, though, that Jesus performed his miracles in public. Even his opposers, who tried to find fault with him on every occasion, could not deny that he was a miracle worker. (John 9:1-34) Further, his miracles had a purpose. They helped people to identify him as the One sent by God.—John 6:14.

In performing miracles Jesus was not seeking attention for himself. Rather, he glorified God, the Source of his power. In Capernaum he was once in a home filled with people. A paralyzed man wanted to be healed but could not get in. So his friends lowered him on a cot through the roof. Upon seeing their faith, Jesus healed the paralytic. As a result, the people "glorified God" and said: "We never saw the like of it." (Mark 2:1-4, 11, 12) Jesus' miracles brought praise to Jehovah, his God, and helped those in need.

Miraculous healing of the sick, however, was not the main thrust of Jesus' ministry. One who wrote an account of Jesus' life explained: "These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." (John 20:31) Yes, Jesus came to earth so that believing humans might have life.

His Sacrifice
'Jesus came to earth?' you may ask. 'Where did he come from?' Jesus himself said: "I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 6:38) He had a prehuman existence as the only-begotten Son of God. What then was the will of the One who sent him to earth? "God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son," says John, one of the Gospel writers, "in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) How was this possible?

The Bible reveals how death became the unavoidable lot for mankind. The first human couple received from God life with the prospect of living forever. However, they chose to rebel against their Maker. (Genesis 3:1-19) As a result of this action, the first human sin, the offspring of Adam and Eve inherited the unwelcome legacy of death. (Romans 5:12) In order to give mankind real life, sin and death must be done away with.

No scientist can get rid of death by some kind of genetic engineering. Yet, the Creator of mankind has the means to bring obedient humans to perfection so that they can live forever. In the Bible this provision is called the ransom. The first human couple sold themselves and their offspring into slavery to sin and death. They traded life as perfect humans obedient to God for life independent of God, making their own decisions as to what is right and what is wrong. To buy back perfect human life, a price had to be paid that was equivalent to the perfect human life that our first parents forfeited. Having inherited imperfection, humans were not qualified to provide that price.—Psalm 49:7.

So Jehovah God stepped in to help. He transferred the perfect life of his only-begotten Son to the womb of a virgin, who gave birth to Jesus. Decades ago, you might have rejected the idea of a virgin birth. Today, however, scientists have cloned mammals and introduced genes from one animal into another. Who, then, can rightly question the Creator's ability to bypass the ordinary process of procreation?

With the existence of a perfect human life, the price to redeem mankind from sin and death became available. Yet, the baby born on earth as Jesus had to grow up to be the "physician" able to furnish the "medication" to cure mankind's ills. He did this by living a perfect, sinless life. Jesus not only saw the anguish of mankind under sin but experienced the physical limitations of being a man. This made him an even more compassionate physician. (Hebrews 4:15) The miraculous healings that he performed during his life on earth proved that he has both the will and the power to cure the sick.—Matthew 4:23.

After a ministry of three and a half years here on earth, Jesus was killed by his opposers. He showed that a perfect man can be obedient to the Creator despite even the greatest trials. (1 Peter 2:22) His sacrificed perfect human life became the ransom price, able to redeem mankind from sin and death. Jesus Christ said: "No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends." (John 15:13) On the third day after his death, Jesus was resurrected to spirit life, and some weeks later he ascended to heaven to present the ransom price to Jehovah God. (1 Corinthians 15:3, 4; Hebrews 9:11-14) By doing so, Jesus was able to apply the merit of his ransom sacrifice to those who follow him.
So you better believe that Jesus was certainly one of the most influential people who ever lived." (The World Book Encyclopedia) Jesus Christ, was the founder of Christianity.
Could the Gospel writers have forged the life story of Jesus? Not at all! The well-known historian Will Durant, after analyzing those Gospel accounts, wrote: "That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels. After two centuries of Higher Criticism the outlines of the life, character, and teaching of Christ, remain reasonably clear, and constitute the most fascinating feature in the history of Western man."

Kweli Nyani haoni k..............

[teejay]

@ Dady

>Wacha kujifanya watutishia na kiswahili chako pesa nane

Hili jibu linadhibitisha tu vile mafundisho Kule Madrass ni duni. Haya basi yako ya pesa nyingi au pungufu ni yapi?

Sipo hapa kumtisha yeyote yule, bali kushiriki katika mijadala inayo nia ya kutuweka mwangazani. Kama mwangaza ni tisho kwako, heri basi utokomee gizani. Kwa kuongezea, nitasema hivi, Kiswahili ni lugha ya taifa langu na ninajivunia kuwa, nina mila na asili ya kenya, na wewe katika fikira zako zilizofungiwa pangoni, hutaweza kamwe kunikomesha kusema yale ninayo moyoni, mradi tu mkondo ninaoutumia unaeleweka. Na kwa vile umenijibu, sina shaka kuwa ulinipata barabara. Vile vile, nitasema kuwa, hapa mashada hakuna ilani ambayo inadhulumu utumiaji wa lugha yoyote, kwa hiyo kiswahili nitaitumia ipaswavyo.

>Kwanza...kitu gani unaweza thibitisha kuwa huyo mtu mliyekuwa
>naye ndani ya gari alikuwa muislamu?

Ni kipofu tu,ndiye ambaye anahitaju usaidizi, kumtambwa mfwasi wa Muhammad.

>Pili..tuseme pengine labda wamjua kwa jina.
>Uislamu hauambatani na majina, Uislamu ni tabia nzuri zilizo
>nakiliwa ndani ya Quran.

Sasa basi kama ni hivyo, mbona hukukoma wewe,hata kwa wakati mmoja kwenye jibu lako ukatafuta kujua Ukristo ni nini. Au tuseme kuwa,kigumba ni kwa ngurwe, lakini kwa mwandamu kichungu. Nyani wewe, tako lako latumulika, kisha bado huna fedheha kukejeli langu? Funika lako kwanza au vipi kaka?

Tabia ya mtu binafsi sio tabia ya jamii nzima, kwa hiyo kujumuisha wakristo wote kwenye gunia moja, sio jambo la busara. Na mtu mwenye elimu isiyo ya bure, kwa kweli, anaweza kufanya vyema zaidi ya hayo, au sivyo?

>Majina huambatana na kabila, km unakumbuka yule waziri wa
>zamani wa mambo ya nchi ya kigeni wa Iraq alikuwa anaitwa
>Tariq Aziz na hakuwa muislamu.

Achana na mambo ya majina. Jina ni chombo tu, cha kutofautisha vitu. Kwa mfano tunajua kuwa Meza ni kifaa cha kutusaidia kuweka maankuli na vingevyo wakati wa kula, lakini hatuwezi kamwe kuhakikisha kuwa kifaa hicho chaitwa meza. Kinaweza vile vile kuitwa kiti,au omari, au hata dady, ni kiwe hivo.

Nikisema kuwa yule bwana alikuwa ni muislamu nina maana kuwa ninaweza kubainisha wazi uislamu wake. Na wala siyo tu kupitia kitambulisho yake ambalo ni jina. Ni mtu ninayemfuhamu na kumjua vyema. Na si yeye pekee wa asili ya dini ya kiislamu nayemjua ambaye anaburidika na mvinyo (tembo), uvutaji wa sigara, dawa za kulevya. Wako wengi wenzako. Yangu hapa ilikuwa nikufanye wewe katika fikira yako iliyoegemea upende mmoja, ufunguke macho.

Kuwa wewe ni muislamu haimaanishi kuwa wewe ni mtakatifu sambamba na Mungu. Bado kuna ubinadamu ndani yako; na kama ungali bado dunia hii, waweza, kwa wakati mmoja au nyingine, kuanguka kwenye shimo la dhambi.

>Pia wewe kabla hujakaa kitako kutuandikia hapa, fikiria
>kwanza.

Nimejieleza hapo juu. Tafadhali soma kwa makini, halafu kisha tuelewane.

>Kweli hakuna kitu kijinga duniani km Elimu ya bure ya Narc

Sijui una maana gani hapa. Pengine ungetueleza kwa mapana na marefu sababu zako za kuikashifu hii elimu ya bure.

La pili kwa kuwa wewe ni Muislamu amabye anapaswa kuwa na tabia kamilifu, mbona hii sentensi yako ya mwisho haina madhumuni ya kuteleza hayo? Badala yake tunamuona Muislamu mwenye Kiburi, ambaye anafikiri kwamba elimu yake alogharamia kifedha, ni ya juu na muhimu zaidi kushinda ya wenzie. Ni mara ya pili sasa hii nakumbana na muislamu mwingine tena, mwenye kufikiri kuwa, elimu ya dunia hii ni mahitaji ya kiroho.

Kama,uislamu ni tabia nzuri zilizo nakiliwa ndani ya Quran; Je,hilo sentensi lako umelinukuu kutoka kwenye Quran?

[teejay]

>OK, that is funny. Death working in cahoots with Satan (a
>being he doesn't believe in) in order to make Christians
>disbelief the word of god, another being Death doesn't believe
>in. That's like saying Death is working with Spiderman so as
>to mess up Batman's marriage!

ATlian, with God you are either with him or not.If not then we can only say that you are with Satan. Death, even in his disbelief is much on Satan's side just as you. It does not matter whether he does not believe in satan. He is what we call "under the Snare of Satan". Remember in the Garden of Eden, Satan had Adam and Eve disbelief in God's instructions and that is what he is doing to man this very moment am addressing this to you.

While God's existance is to you some form of comical series, it is to me a very serious spiritual matter and you are not about to shake that faith off me with your foolish diabolic insinuations. You have perfected the art of disbelief; so be it, I leave you with your disbelief, but know that where I am going after this world you cannot come with your attitude and nobody will be there to advocate for you not even the emisseries from your agency who now urge you to dispute the authority of your maker. You will be there alone accounting for every word that you uttered.

>has god ever said that the Bible is his word or his point of
>reference? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I highly doubt it.
>It's MAN who said that the Bible was god's word, not god who
>said that the Bible was his word.

Well you are wrong and am correcting you brother. You are so covered in the mess of disbelief that your reading of the bible is hardly helpful to you. Even If I was to hit your face with the truth, you'd still not comprehend, but will in perpetuity, champion the course of your side. Your heart is waxed gross and you have no intention of hearing the word of God. Like kibaki, you hold your position that scaling down your mugumo tree disbelief will need more than a razor. Well,Grow on!

>Don't forget that god didn't set up the Bible. A group of men
>met, went through many many books, and chose 66 of them to
>make up the Bible. If those men had so wanted, they'd have
>made the Bible with 96 books. Does that mean that the 33 books
>they dropped aren't god's word because the men decided that?

No, on the contrary, they were good. Go ahead form another group of men and add them on to the bible. That you can do, right?

>Let's be real - the Bible is what those founding fathers
>wanted it to be. That's why they dropped controversial books,
>like the ones that prove Jesus was married...

Well, What can I say. I can see that you are not that much of an atheist after all. You also subscribe to some gnostic believes.

[sassiegal]

@u aint a hustler
if Jesus did not approve of alcohol, why did he change water into wine? who says alcohol is bad? because it's a drug? then open ur med cabinets and throw away tylenols and ibuprofen. alcohol has a medicinal effect, used in that days of jesus at wedding for celebration and at the same time the bible warns against excessive consumption. if u dont agree with the teachings of christianity, well DONT CONVERT TO CHRISTIANISM!!!!!!!!!!! DUH!!!!

i dont blive in holy war,a sorry excuse to make pples lives miserable. if islam is the thing, then why force pple into it? the old testament very much resembles the koran and yes over the yrs, things have been changed to suit the pple, u think the koran wasnt? do what is right by heart and stop digging into other pples religions. christians are not at all botheres by muslims. we welcome u into our countries andu do not. is that brotherhood?
if u cant say anythign nice, don't say nothing at all

[sassiegal]

ok so if islam is about the good behaviors as listed in the koran, does it say pick on ur christian brothers?

if u cant say anythign nice, don't say nothing at all

[ATLian]

>ATlian, with God you are either with him or not.If not then we
>can only say that you are with Satan.

Well, that then contradicts your theory that we have free will. You can't tell me that god gave me free will, then tell me that I can only use that free will do do only those things that god deems good, or else I'll go to hell. That is NOT free will!



>While God's existance is to you some form of comical series,
>it is to me a very serious spiritual matter and you are not
>about to shake that faith off me with your foolish diabolic
>insinuations.

How can I have diabolic (characteristic of the devil) beliefs if I don't even believe in the devil? Do you have any mermaid-ian or unicorn-ian beliefs?



>You have perfected the art of disbelief; so be
>it, I leave you with your disbelief, but know that where I am
>going after this world you cannot come with your attitude and
>nobody will be there to advocate for you not even the
>emisseries from your agency who now urge you to dispute the
>authority of your maker.

To summarise your long statement above, after we die, TeeJay will be in heaven and ATLian will be in hell. Now I always thought that hell was for sinners. Sinners like those who murder little babies, people like Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. I am none of those. I deeply believe that I am a good person. I treat other people well, I don't trespass on the rights of anybody, etc. I'd not join you in hacking and boiling innocent babies to death. Despite that, since I don't believe in this all-powerful god, I'll end up in hell. And, Hitler and Idi Amin, if they confessed before they died, will be in heaven.

TeeJay, please explain to me how that can be rational! Please explain to me why the all-wise god cannot understand that I am a good person while Amin isn't, and I only question his existence because of the intelligence he gave me. Tell me who you'd rather be your neighbor in heaven, that evil serial killer who confessed seconds before he was fried on the electric chair, or me. How would you feel if seconds before I died, I confessed, then I ended up in heaven with you forever, despite the years I spent pointing out that I don't believe in god? I'm sure you'd be quite vexxed and you'd take issue at it, since you spent your whole life being good and denying yourself of life's pleasures!

It amazes me how to you, the most evil person there is is a nonbeliever, while you have no issues with the truely evil people who believe!



>Well you are wrong and am correcting you brother. You are so
>covered in the mess of disbelief that your reading of the
>bible is hardly helpful to you. Even If I was to hit your face
>with the truth, you'd still not comprehend, but will in
>perpetuity, champion the course of your side. Your heart is
>waxed gross and you have no intention of hearing the word of
>God.

OK, I've listened to what you said. You said my statement was wrong, and you said you'd correct me, but you did not. Let me ask again - "has god ever said that the Bible is his word or his point of
reference"?



>No, on the contrary, they were good. Go ahead form another
>group of men and add them on to the bible. That you can do,
>right?

OK, now you're being immature!