[teejay]

For ages now Muslims have been up in arms against Followers of Christ and the bible. They have made claims and counter claims with sole purpose knocking out the Fellowship of Christ so that only Islam remains the so called True religion of Allah.

They have shot arrows at the very foundations of Christian faith. Among them

1. Disputing the sonship of Christ to God (the Father)
2. Christ never died on the cross.
3. The English bible is flawed.
4. Christ and his followers were Muslims
5. That Mohammed is the Holy Spirit etc

They want to knock out the above knowing fully well that without them the fellowship of Christ is non-existant. That mean we will all be left with Islam. To solve a problem one has to seek its roots. The agenda that they will not achieve until the end of times. These roots are firmly hooked into the earth of our hearts and will exalt Christ for n him there is resurrection and life. Through him we see the father.

Looking at Islam closely one gets a feeling that they have one problem, which cause the great pain. It is written the bible “He who is not born again cannot set foot in heaven.” Mohammed did not teach this, neither did he tell them about Christ mission on earth. In fact Mohammed intentionally left out the most vital truths about Christ in his Koran, which if revealed to Moslems in their fullness will release them from the yoke of Islam, a yoke that has created a grand canyon between them and God (Not Allah). He Mohammed if indeed was a prophet is to me of a questionable conduct- a false one. It is not possible that all the preceding prophets (messengers of God) talked about Jesus’ coming and his mission (redemption of mankind) only for Mohammed to come and pour water on established divine Authority. By reading the bible one can tell that false prophets are mentioned from as early as the days of Moses and numerous times in Christ’s teachings. Of them He says, “ a tree is known by its fruits.” Mohammed was not a fruit that originated from God, he obviously acquired his beliefs elsewhere. Had he been of Godly descent he would emphasize on Christ’s teachings. Their, Muslims, claim that their faith is Abrahamic is a leaking container. Abraham was shown the symbol of the coming messiah and he was happy about it. To be able to relate your faith’s origin to Abraham does not mean express passage to God’s house. In fact the true children of Abraham are those that have faith like. Moreover Abraham was not a Muslim. (Please note the time Muhammad is born and the time Abraham lived)

Muslims without batting their eyes impose on us the divinity of their prophet and his Koran without considering that this Book is flawed. They say that the Hadith is not the word of God, but Muhammad’s, yet they expound the Koran using the Hadith and vice versa, hence they are actually practicing what I call circular reasoning (what the Koran cannot clearly expound is sought in the hadiths, what is not clear in the hadiths is sought in the Koran). Can one use what is not God’s word to understand God?

I once asked a Muslim fella here about salvation. The answer I got was rude. My question was regarded as rhetorical. I, of course assumed that salvation is a strange thing to these people. Through this I also made another conclusion. That the Jesus they talk about in their Koran is another being, (one of Moha’s creation) that who is unknown to the Followers of Christ. If they knew him they’d be talking the same language as we. I also drew another conclusion. That which Christ told Nicodemus, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” Where does that leave our dear Muslim brothers?

I read an article that a colleague at this web posted. It talked of Christian’s prayers touching on Muslims. In their prayers they asked God to show his light unto these Islamic masses. My view was they were doing the right thing. I also pray that they will be brought back home to peace and freedom. Christ came so that the blind may see, the lame may walk and dumb may talk, the bound may be set free. It is time for us true followers to Christ fast and pray for these souls. Tell them the good message, baptising them in the name of the father, the son and Holy Spirit. Tell them about the water that quenches thirst forever, tell them about the bread that will never let them got hungry, tell them about the prince of peace.

May his will be known unto to the lost.

[Coach]

teejay,
What does "born again" mean? Is it literal? Is it the "kuokoka" Kenyans speak of (I knew a dude who was 'saved' one week and wasout drinking and sleeping around teh next, I never understood what it really meant).


If you look at what Christians and Muslims have in common, especially as mentionned in the Qur'an you will be a bit surprised.

>They have shot arrows at the very foundations of Christian
>faith. Among them
>
>1. Disputing the sonship of Christ to God (the Father)

We are all God's children. Muslim have no problem with teh metaphorical aspects of this belief but when it is taken literally, the Messenger is turned into the God. At this point you are no longer a monotheist.


>2. Christ never died on the cross.

Muslims believe that a Messenger of God is protected by Him. If the enemies of God kill the Messenger then there isn't much power in the sender don't you think? Muslims believe that the people wanted to crucify Jesus PBUH but at the moment of crucufixion Christ arose to heaven and the enemies crucified some phantom. Messengers of God do endure hardship, not because God is evil and likes them to suffer but it is because there is a lot to learn for mankind in the suffering of Prophets and Messengers. Moses went through a lot to liberate the children of Israel from Pharaoh and if God willed he would have airlifted them with a spaceship to the promised land but their journey (their calf-worship, manna and quails and their plight) is a lesson for us to learn from.


>3. The English bible is flawed.

This is not true. Muslims do acknowledge Muslims and Jews as People of the Book (they received the Torah and Gospel). The NT was written some 200 years after the death of Jesus. It also contains a lot of contradictions and erroneous messages which trickled in into the Message. Some of the verses would not withstand a test of logic! It has nothing to do with English, but translating a Holy Book comes with risks as some meanings are changed and others lost in translation. I can show you a good example which also adresses the first premise of Jesus begotten nature.

John 3:16 AV says..."For God so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

This was a fabrication that was not present in the older versions of the Bible.

The Bible uses the phrase "SOn of God" on many ocassions which contradicts the "only begotten" that added to later versions. Here are some examples...

Genesis 6:2-4
Job 1:6
Psalms 89:6

Here you see that the phrase is used and does not have a literal meaning that you attribute to Jesus as being a "begotten" son. If you give me a reference of the TRINITY that will support teh divinity Christians attribute Jesus then we can start the discussions. Otherwise you areleft with Constantine and Nicean Creed as your evidence. And we all know that won't wash.


>4. Christ and his followers were Muslims

A Muslim is someone who submitts to God. Islam means submission and it also come from the root word "Salaam" which means peace. When someone tells you that true Christians who lived aftert he Prophethood of Mohamed PBUH (and Christ himself) are Muslims that doesn't mean that they pray to Mecca and read the Qur'an. It simply means that they submit to God, ONE GOD. The Qur'an also says...

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (Qur'an 2:62 )


>5. That Mohammed is the Holy Spirit etc


I don't know where you got that mate! One thing Christians of all times have claimed is that Mohamed unlike Christ is more of a human being who isn't attibuted with spiritualism. Muslims don't use the words "Holy Spirit" to describe any other being than God himself. So whoever told you that lied.



>
>They want to knock out the above knowing fully well that
>without them the fellowship of Christ is non-existant. That
>mean we will all be left with Islam. To solve a problem one
>has to seek its roots. The agenda that they will not achieve
>until the end of times. These roots are firmly hooked into the
>earth of our hearts and will exalt Christ for n him there is
>resurrection and life. Through him we see the father.


Any Muslim who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ is not a Muslim (or Moses, David and Solomon for that matter). Believing in God's Messengers is one the fundamentals of Islamic Faith. Muslims believe that all these Prophets had the same Message. Remember, in the Bible, Jesus was crying out to His Lord saying Eloi Eloi, Lama Sabachtani? (Lord Lord who have thou forsaken me?)



>Looking at Islam closely one gets a feeling that they have one
>problem, which cause the great pain. It is written the bible
>“He who is not born again cannot set foot in heaven.” Mohammed
>did not teach this, neither did he tell them about Christ
>mission on earth. In fact Mohammed intentionally left out the
>most vital truths about Christ in his Koran, which if revealed
>to Moslems in their fullness will release them from the yoke
>of Islam, a yoke that has created a grand canyon between them
>and God (Not Allah).

You are very quick to attack Islam but you show very little knowledge of this great faith you like to attack. Jesus and Mohamed had the same Message, they both called to the worship of the ONE TRUE GOD. There are many examples to be drawn forth.




He Mohammed if indeed was a prophet is to
>me of a questionable conduct- a false one.It is not possible
>that all the preceding prophets (messengers of God) talked
>about Jesus’ coming and his mission (redemption of mankind)
>only for Mohammed to come and pour water on established divine
>Authority.

Mohamed confirmed that Jesus was sent by God to guide the Jews and there is remarkable detail in the Qur'an of what happenned. From his divine birth to his apparent crucifixion. As I said, any Muslim who doesn't beeliev in Christ (and his return in the end of times) is not a Muslim.




By reading the bible one can tell that false
>prophets are mentioned from as early as the days of Moses and
>numerous times in Christ’s teachings. Of them He says, “ a
>tree is known by its fruits.” Mohammed was not a fruit that
>originated from God, he obviously acquired his beliefs
>elsewhere.

Whenever a Prophet of God came, some believed in him and some didn't. From the time of Noah, Abraham and also Jesus PBUT and even to the time of Prophet Mohamed PBUH. Many didn't believe in Jesus, they called him an imposter, a sorcerer etc and said that they had their own Prophet (i.e. Moses) and didn't listen to what Jesus said. You are basically saying the same thing, claiming that Mohamed is a false Prophet. You have every right to believe and say what you want, but thrusting your beliefs as "facts" is a whole different matter.






Had he been of Godly descent he would emphasize on
>Christ’s teachings. Their, Muslims, claim that their faith is
>Abrahamic is a leaking container. Abraham was shown the symbol
>of the coming messiah and he was happy about it. To be able to
>relate your faith’s origin to Abraham does not mean express
>passage to God’s house. In fact the true children of Abraham
>are those that have faith like. Moreover Abraham was not a
>Muslim. (Please note the time Muhammad is born and the time
>Abraham lived)

Refer to above, Muslims believe that he who believed in The One True God was a Muslim. Thos who are born after the Prophecy of Mohamed are his Ummah (i.e. generation/followers). Some are atheists just like in early times, some reject his Message and claim to follow a previous Prophet and some embraced his Message and the Prophecy of the previous Prophetsof God.




>Muslims without batting their eyes impose on us the divinity
>of their prophet and his Koran without considering that this
>Book is flawed.

Please offer us examples of what you claim. You have claimed a lot of things of late and have been aunable to back your words. You claimed that Islam was spread by the sword but you couldn;t give any examples in history where a population was forced to convert. here you are making more baseless empty accusations without proof.




They say that the Hadith is not the word of
>God, but Muhammad’s, yet they expound the Koran using the
>Hadith and vice versa, hence they are actually practicing what
>I call circular reasoning (what the Koran cannot clearly
>expound is sought in the hadiths, what is not clear in the
>hadiths is sought in the Koran). Can one use what is not God’s
>word to understand God?

This is an example of your gross misunderstanding of Islam. There are different sources of law and Qur'an is the first and Hadith the second. Obviously, logically, one book cannot contain every single law regarding everything there is and what is to come. So the people of jurisprudence have Hadiths at their disposal where they can see if tehre is a similar case that was tackled during the time of the Prophet. If there wasn't, there are other sources of law. Here is the list so that you can stop believing the rubbish you claimed above...

1. Qur'an
2. Hadith
3. Ijma' (consensus of scholars)
4. Qiyas (analogy)
5. Ijtihad (progressive reasoning by analogy)


So let's say I want to take a loan and there is a large amount of interest involved (which is forbidden by law) I would go to the first source. The issue of interest is tackled in teh Qur'an so this would suffice. The same goes to murder, rape, treachery, adultery, alcohol and other major prohibitions. If it comes to things that aren't tackled by the first option you go to the second and so on. The last option is the reasonning by scholars after they have failed to reach a consensus and all reasonning by scholars would be opennly debated and eventually accepted. As you can see, it is not as simple and "circular" as you thought it to be. I hope I have been of some help.


>I once asked a Muslim fella here about salvation. The answer I
>got was rude. My question was regarded as rhetorical. I, of
>course assumed that salvation is a strange thing to these
>people.

Aquestion you ask a Muslim cannot be used as evidence. I can not approach one person, or even a thousand and use their responses as evidence to prove the beliefs of a people. Have you been to university? If you have then you would be at the least dishonest to present such ludicrous baseless assumptions as evidence.



>I read an article that a colleague at this web posted. It
>talked of Christian’s prayers touching on Muslims. In their
>prayers they asked God to show his light unto these Islamic
>masses. My view was they were doing the right thing. I also
>pray that they will be brought back home to peace and freedom.
>Christ came so that the blind may see, the lame may walk and
>dumb may talk, the bound may be set free. It is time for us
>true followers to Christ fast and pray for these souls. Tell
>them the good message, baptising them in the name of the
>father, the son and Holy Spirit. Tell them about the water
>that quenches thirst forever, tell them about the bread that
>will never let them got hungry, tell them about the prince of
>peace.


Every believer of a faith follows it because he/she believes it to be true. We can pray for each other but that doesn't solve the problem. A good civil discussion might help and let's hope taht we create a dialogue so that we can break down the misconceptions we have of each other's faiths. AFter we've done that, we can adress all othe issues, step by step and att he end you have a right to conclude what you want.

"There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing." (Qur'an 2:256 )

[satjas]

The kooran was written some 60 years after the death of MooHamMad. It
also contains a lot of contradictions and erroneous messages
which trickled in into the Message. Some of the verses would
not withstand a test of logic! It has nothing to do with
arabic, but translating a Holy Book comes with risks as some
meanings are changed and others lost in translation.

do you agree, coach?

>A Muslim is someone who submitts to God.

I submit to God coach, am i now a muslim, going by what you say?


>Mohamed confirmed that Jesus was sent by God to guide the Jews
>and there is remarkable detail in the Qur'an of what
>happenned.

nothing remarkable, just copied from the old testament almost verbatim dude!!

>Please offer us examples of what you claim. You have claimed a
>lot of things of late and have been aunable to back your
>words.

try www.faithfreedom.org.

>You claimed that Islam was spread by the sword but you
>couldn;t give any examples in history where a population was
>forced to convert. here you are making more baseless empty
>accusations without proof.

http://www.domini.org/openbook/ind20010119.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus
http://www.historyofjihad.com/

Obviously, logically, one book cannot
>contain every single law regarding everything there is and
>what is to come.

does this mean the kooran is incomplete as per your words??



As you can see, it is not as simple and
>"circular" as you thought it to be. I hope I have been of some
>help.

yep, that's why you guys are a muddled lot...cannot keep things simple.

> We can pray for each other but that doesn't
>solve the problem.

yep again, this guy does it again, he prays yet says the prayer doesn't solve the problem. Then why the fff do it in the first place????

-the paradigm shifter.

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[TeamManager]

>"There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is
>clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the
>forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a
>support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is
>All Hearing and Knowing." (Qur'an 2:256 )

Mine is a simple request ....... ask those 'religiously locked countries' in the mideast and surrounding areas to open their violently closed borders to the Christian Gospel message ......and let Allah personally protect his own.

[dadyamaru]

Mine is a simple request ....... ask those 'religiously locked countries' in the mideast and surrounding areas to open their violently closed borders to the Christian Gospel message ......and let Allah personally protect his own.


EVERYONE must face GOD, either as SAVIOUR or as JUDGE.

"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord Jesus will be saved." Rom 10:13


@Team Manager
U need to have info b4 start talking against something.
Who said the middle east is religiously locked?
We ave Xtistians in Iraq, Kuwait, Iran,Lebanon,Israel etc.

a. The largest Christian community of the Middle East is found in Egypt, which has ten to twelve million Copts

b. The Southern Sudanese are about six million. Christians are the largest monotheist group.

c. The Christians of Lebanon: about 1.5 million still reside there and more than 6 million live in the diaspora, including about a quarter of that number in the United States.
Among the Lebanese Christians, the largest group is the Maronites, which are Catholics which follow Rome.
Other smaller religious entities include the Melkites and Orthodox Christians

d. The Assyro-Chaldeans: Around one million in Iraq with large concentrations in the Kurdish zone.

e. The Christians of Syria: About 1.2 million including Aramaics, Armenians, Melkites and Orthodox.

f. There are small but significant Christian communities in other countries such as Iran, Jordan, Israel, and less significant in Turkey, Algeria. By law there are no Christians in Saudi Arabia.

less u argument is based on something else.
In some of those countries they r governed by sharia law.
In those countries where sharia law is practised its applied to every1.
So if ur argument is on this am sorry, i cant help u.

[teejay]

>teejay,
>What does "born again" mean? Is it literal? Is it the
>"kuokoka" Kenyans speak of (I knew a dude who was 'saved' one
>week and wasout drinking and sleeping around teh next, I never
>understood what it really meant).

Kindly refer to the conversation between Nicodemus and Jesus John 3:1-19

In John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So, What does it mean to be born of Spirit and Water?

Born again

1. Birth in Water (baptism)

Acts 22:16 To be born of water means to have your sins washed.
Acts 8:12: The prerequisite for baptism itself is belief. Total Belief in Jesus Christ. Note that this is different from your (Islamic) piecemeal belief in Jesus, where in one hand you say that anyone who does not believe in Jesus is not a Muslim and on the other hand you water down that belief by asserting that He, Christ, never died on the cross. Thus making your belief in him void and vague. The very essence of believing in Christ is accepting His death (the Ultimate sacrifice) as a factor that guarantees mankind, reconciliation with his maker. You take away that then we are on our own. This is the same as saying God’s efforts to show us his mercy and grace, are not worthwhile.

Moreover Muslims don’t baptise. You can see that there isn’t much substance in your claim that you believe in Christ. To believe in Christ is to Carry that cross and walk with it (I don’t mean wearing a crucifix).

2. Spiritual rebirth (born of Spirit)

Romans 7:4- Dying to your old self/life
I John 3:9- This birth bring about Changes in our lives and goals.

So the guy that you say declared himself born again but went on to practice what he did before his proclamation did no receive Christ. When there is spiritual manifestation in a person he obliges to Spiritual Convictions and thus he will be able to tone himself down to the required spiritual standards. The only person on should look up to is Christ no another brethren. We can fall at any time in our spiritual journey but if we earnestly cry to God our strength is restored. Many a brethren in the church are lead astray because they have stopped investing their faith Christ and instead channel it to their pastors.

It is said that the road of Salvation is never easy. Thus a very narrow road. It really needs one to deny himself a lot things-self sacrifice. Which needs the help of Christ.

Because you say that you believe in Christ, I have a few questions for you Coach.

1.Are you Baptised Coach?
2.Do you walk in Spirit of truth?
3.Do you acknowledge Christ as the saviour of this world and not as a messenger sent to the jews only?
4. Do you believe that he died on our behalf?

If your answers to the above questions is YES, (welcome home) then you and me are standing on common grounds but if not am sorry but that’s how it is. You either believe of disbelief.

>If you look at what Christians and Muslims have in common,
>especially as mentionned in the Qur'an you will be a bit
>surprised.

Coach Muslims and Christians certainly do have afew things in common, like we are all humans, we all live, breath the same air and all of us exercise some form of faith, albeit worship different Gods, to name but a few. Before I forget, let me also say that the surfeit mentioning of Mary and Jesus in the Quran is of no meaning. It is one that is meant to treacherously lead Christians to believe that “there are, after all, some common instances between the two sides.” Thus nothing brings us closer to each other with regards to Worship of God.

“Christ never died and that God rescued him at the cross and replaced him with another person.”- ISLAM

If that was the case then God would have offered replacement long time ago during the days of Adam, why would He wait that long, until after Christ had been Crucified? Do you think that Christ was the only Messenger of God to have passed through persecution? I think not. Christ himself clearly tells the Pharisees that they have over the years been responsible for the death of God’s messengers. Why is it that God only choose to replace Christ with another person and did not do the same for his other messengers. John the Baptised Himself (Christ’s cousin) was guillotined to death yet he was Christ’s precursor, one of very lofty importance. He came to prepare the way for Christ. Why is that God never saved him from Death so that His power could be manifest as you claim? Does it mean that other messengers are more special that others according to Islam.

Another thing that would be laughable is the fact that you Moslems actually believe in a lair! Christ mentioned his impending death more than once. Yet you people insist that he did not die on the cross. This can only mean that He lied and God lied too. Therefore there was no redemption of mankind! This is another reason I say that you Moslems and we Christians don’t worship the same deity.

I think you Moslems are missing something here. It was necessary for Christ to die so that we be saved. Without that then Salvation and our everything else is in vain.

>We are all God's children. Muslim have no problem with teh
>metaphorical aspects of this belief but when it is taken
>literally, the Messenger is turned into the God. At this point
>you are no longer a monotheist.

Just like we are all God Children we can also on our free will decide to be Some else’s Children, by simply refusing to obey God. John 8:29-47


Coach, is God all powerful or not?
Can He have a son without the occurrence of a union between Him and a Woman or not? Adam and Eve are the most common examples of God’s ability to beget children without sexual indulgence.

>Muslims believe that a Messenger of God is protected by Him.
>If the enemies of God kill the Messenger then there isn't much
>power in the sender don't you think?

This is where you and Christians don’t agree. All symbols and that were given in the old Testament pointed to Christ coming and his death. All the prophets who spoke of him saw him dead on that cross. Isaiah 53 explicitly calls him the suffering Servant, with verse 7 equating him to a “lamb to the slaughter”. Verse nine actually mentions his death. Daniel 9:25-27 Prophesies about the Messiah’s advent and his death.
If ye Muslims say that ye believe in the prophets of old why not believe what the two examples I have given said about Christ. They were messengers of God, weren’t they? To say what contradicts them is to label God a lair! Why is it so had for you Moslems to believe that Christ was actually killed on the cross. Also refer to Deuteronomy 16 (for sacrificial procedures)

You people believe that Moses was a messenger of God yet you cannot fathom the meaning of the symbolic snake that he hanged on the tree, so that when everyone who was bitten by snake looked upon the symbol was healed.

You still have no idea why the prophets of God called Christ the Lamb of God, why Isaac was spared Abraham's blade so that instead a lamb was offered in place of his son. That lamb symbolised the coming of the Messiah who would die for our sins. Abraham was happy when it was revealed to him in that manner. Of all the prophets it seems only Mohammed does no recognise the Lamb nature of Christ, hence his follower’s take that Christ never died on the Cross.

Because of this I have always said that the “Jesus” that you people (Moslems) believe in is not known to us in the fellowship of Christ. Your Jesus never saved the world, while ours did the exact opposite-brought a fallen race closer to the father. The “God” you people (Muslims) worship is neither our Jehovah. He did not wish to have Jesus save the world, while our God did sent Christ to save this world from eternal damnation (John 3:16). On this account therefore we can never be spiritually at par.

You claim that had Christ died then the power of the sender would be inconsequential. I would say that once again you are spiritually lacking on this one. Christ’s death was meant to also expose Satan’s full Character. It may be well of you to note that before his death Christ had referred to Satan as “a murderer from the beginning.”(John 8:44) But who did he want to murder from the beginning?

Ans: The Son of God.

He Satan, urging man with his raging evil, eventually had his fun-Killed Christ, but in so doing the Glory and the Power of God was elevated, because Satan was now exposed for who he truly was/is- Murderer indeed. Anything that sheds light to us has Power. The power to drive darkness away. So you see, Even in Christ’s death God’s power was still reigning and never at one time was God powerless. After that exposition, it now upon us to declared solemnly, which side we belong- murderer’s camp or God camp.

Christ says that if “ye have seen me, ye have seen the father” and that “ no one goes to the father but through me (Christ).” All authority, the father has vested in the son. So if you don’t want to believe what his death did for you; sorry, mate but you just have to contend with the beliefs of the opposing side. Simply put- he who is not with us, is against us.

>NT was written some 200 years after the death of Jesus.

Not in its entirety. We for instance know that John wrote his Gospel 30 years after Christ. The other four Gospels were equally written in short period of time.

About John 3:16 “the Begotten”, and
“Son of God”, Son of Man”

You are the one fabricating this verse coach. The word BEGOTTEN in greek bible is MONOGENES. The word is a compound word, MONO, meaning only, and GENNESIS, meaning birth. "Only begotten" (MONOGENES) is used five times by John, three by Luke, and once by the writer of Hebrews.

This topic is lengthy and requires a lot of time to talk about. I will leave it that way in the meantime maybe, when time allows, we will plunge ourselves into further discussion about this alleged fabrication.

>A Muslim is someone who submitts to God. Islam means
>submission and it also come from the root word "Salaam" which
>means peace. When someone tells you that true Christians who
>lived aftert he Prophethood of Mohamed PBUH (and Christ
>himself) are Muslims that doesn't mean that they pray to Mecca
>and read the Qur'an. It simply means that they submit to God,
>ONE GOD. The Qur'an also says...

I have not problem with anyone submitting themselves to one God. The question is which one God? You realise that in this multi-religious world, the One God is a relative phrase. As I have already shown above, there are clear differences between your God and my God.

>"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the
>Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the
>Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from
>their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they
>grieve" (Qur'an 2:62 )

I agree with you that whoever believes in God shall have their reward. But then again I must ask you what Kind of belief do you have in which God?

>>5. That Mohammed is the Holy Spirit etc
>I don't know where you got that mate!.
>Muslims don't use the words "Holy Spirit" to describe any
>other being than God himself. So whoever told you that lied.

Thank you Coach for that very satisfying answer. I can now tell Dadyamaru that his PARAKLETOS reasoning was false and far from truth as heaven and earth can be far apart.

>Any Muslim who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ is not a Muslim
>(or Moses, David and Solomon for that matter).

If this is the case then coach you are far from being a Muslim yourself for obvious reasons.

>Believing in
>God's Messengers is one the fundamentals of Islamic Faith.
>Muslims believe that all these Prophets had the same Message.
>Remember, in the Bible, Jesus was crying out to His Lord
>saying Eloi Eloi, Lama Sabachtani? (Lord Lord who have thou
>forsaken me?)

This is the now the second time I see you typing this phrase. What I keep asking myself however is whether you really know the meaning of that phrase and why Christ loudly uttered them.

>You are very quick to attack Islam but you show very little
>knowledge of this great faith you like to attack. Jesus and
>Mohamed had the same Message,

Apart from talking about one God, Jesus preached Salvation, Mohammed did not. In fact Mohammed does not shed floodlight truth on Christ’s full mission on earth in his Quran, he beats around the bush and then is quick to dismiss His death on the Cross. Here is one confused man who simultaneously wants to profess monotheism and at the very same time cannot resist the urge to Exalt Christ amidst denials that the same one God actually sent Christ to save humankind. I don’t think Mohammed even knew who sent Christ. If he did then he must have swept it under the carpet and replaced that with the quranic Islamic Jesus. There was a purpose to be achieved by this deliberate act of belittling Christ. This one that I will some day expound at the risk of being branded a myriad of names.

BTW why is that all Muslims think defensively all the time? Something is said about the prophet and his religion and they rush to label the person and attacker.

>Mohamed confirmed that Jesus was sent by God to guide the Jews
>and there is remarkable detail in the Qur'an of what
>happenned.

As far as am concerned, the last time checked the word Jews was not synonymous to the word “world”. Jesus clearly directed his followers to go to the world and preach his message. And just prior to that John tells that “God love the world so much the he sent his only begotten son” so that he could save the world. We also know that until the word is gone to all corners of the world Christ will not come.

>From his divine birth to his apparent crucifixion.
>As I said, any Muslim who doesn't beeliev in Christ (and his
>return in the end of times) is not a Muslim.

What is the Islamic reason of why Christ is returning to this world in the end? And why Christ , and not Mohammed or any other messenger of God. I mean we have Enoch who never tasted death, There is Elijah whose righteousness pleased God so much He had to send him a heavenly chariot that he may not be fanged by the poisons of death.

>Whenever a Prophet of God came, some believed in him and some
>didn't. From the time of Noah, Abraham and also Jesus PBUT and
>even to the time of Prophet Mohamed PBUH.

This is not applicable to Mohammed man. I agree that men of God suffered humiliation in the hands men, but Mohammed was not a man of God. Even those you claim to have gone through rough moments were always shown the coming of the Messiah. They were always symbolically reminded of his impeding suffering through the Sacrificial Lambs.

And Mohammed does not even fathom that. Why should I believe him? I know one thing, that in the world are many wolves in sheepskin. All say, lord! Lord! Yet only a few are true people of God. Mohammed’s lengthy literatures on his idea of a god cannot guarantee him heavenly passport, least of all, when he thinks that there are virgins awaiting his arrival there. The dude will be shocked.

>You have every right
>to believe and say what you want, but thrusting your beliefs
>as "facts" is a whole different matter.

While I cannot and it is not my obligation to impose upon you my belief, it is my duty to make sure that this word is heard, and the choice left to the hearer.

>Please offer us examples of what you claim. You have claimed a
>lot of things of late and have been aunable to back your
>words. You claimed that Islam was spread by the sword but you
>couldn;t give any examples in history where a population was
>forced to convert. here you are making more baseless empty
>accusations without proof.

Coach, I think you may be going blind. Let me say first of that we are not in a court of law. Where even common knowledge requires some evidence before a panel of Judges can make decisions. Secondly I gave you Historical excerpts a while ago on how Muslims set to conquer the world for Allah yet you ignored that and has since continued to defame me as a baseless person. Tell me if you require that evidence and I will give it to you once again.

>Here is the list so
>that you can stop believing the rubbish you claimed above...

Are you so desperate you are trying to defuse the circular reasoning fact? The books may be one hundred but then the process is the same- Circular.

>Aquestion you ask a Muslim cannot be used as evidence.

Does this mean that these things you are telling us here are heap rubbish since you are one Muslim responding to my question. Do you mind telling me whether it will count positively when that same one muslims responds with Islamic friendly remedies?

>I can
>not approach one person, or even a thousand and use their
>responses as evidence to prove the beliefs of a people. Have
>you been to university?

1. What exactly is the objective of your question regarding my academic excellence or failure?
2. Do you mean to tell me that even when a Muslim fella is a respected clergy his response is vague?

FYI I have never been to a University, and I don’t think that is a prerequisite as far as worship of God is concerned. You recently initiated correctional thread that was meant to address discipline problems here, obviously I see that you drink more wine than the water you preach, Sheikh! I wonder why you are ramadhaning my friend, yet as you ay below it vague. Please come home son. The Lord is waiting for you with open arms.

>Every believer of a faith follows it because he/she believes
>it to be true. We can pray for each other but that doesn't
>solve the problem.

This is where you and me differ. For me prayers break any barriers. That is why I believe that steadfast prayers will eventually open the eyes of those masses who are blinded by the veils of this Arabic religion.

To add on to that I have just learn today that prayers in the Moslem world are only ceremonial and help nothing. Actually it is just some sought of ritual. You Moslems (admit it coach) are spiritually poor.

>A good civil discussion might help and
>let's hope taht we create a dialogue so that we can break down
>the misconceptions we have of each other's faiths.

I am afraid I incompetent to hold any further discussion with you. It is obvious that you and me are not on the same spiritual level. While yours is University oriented mine is simply emanating from steadfast adherence of the word of God (Not Allah). Simply put, mine is the fear of the Lord, which produces true wisdom and not that useless worldly book-worming you pride in.

>"There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is
>clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the
>forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a
>support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is
>All Hearing and Knowing." (Qur'an 2:256 )

Coach my friend, do not quote Mohammed aimlessly, and moreless when you think it fits your argument. We all know that Mohammed had two personalities-meek and Militant. I may not have a university education but am not stupid!

The quote you have above there was used by Mohammed when he was (meek) struggling to set up his religion. People did not embrace him as he expected because that region was largely pagan and Idolatry was thriving. To calm their anger down and counter the rejection subtly, he appropriately employed the use of that phrase. When he however had the total support he needed, compulsion became the acceptable. In deed he charges that he is directed by “God” to fight those who him. Spairo have innumerable times quoted those verses, and you correctly affirmed them albeit lessening them as fit only for that time the of the prophet, and therefore are inapplicable today.

[Coach]

satjas,
I will only answer one of your claims, as I said before, my job is not to counter the claims of the claims made by faithfreedom.com. If you want a debate about it, start the topic and you can use them as reference and I will use whatever I have at my disposal. You and I will run that show and break it down into pieces to make it digestable to anyone interested.

On the issue of the Qur'an being written 60 years after the death of the Prophet, I don't know where you saw that rubbish (this is why I always tell you not to use an internet site as the basis of your research as you may fall flat with your face). The Qur'an was first memorised and written on stone, leather and other materials by many companions of the Prophet, all during the life of the Prophet and also during the reign of Abu Bakr and Umar. But it was COMPILED in its current from during the reign of Uthman.

here is the info and you do the math...

Muhamad's reign 610-632
Abu Bakr's reign 632 – 634
Umar's reign 634-644
Uthman's reign 644–656

So, the death of Uthamn was 24 years after the death of the Prophet, the question is where did you get the 60 years??


teejay,

>Because you say that you believe in Christ, I have a few
>questions for you Coach.
>
>1.Are you Baptised Coach?
>2.Do you walk in Spirit of truth?
>3.Do you acknowledge Christ as the saviour of this world and
>not as a messenger sent to the jews only?
>4. Do you believe that he died on our behalf?
>
>If your answers to the above questions is YES, (welcome home)
>then you and me are standing on common grounds but if not am
>sorry but that’s how it is. You either believe of disbelief.


Baptism comes from the Greek ‘baptein’ which means ‘to plunge, to immerse, or to wash. Muslims believe in John the Baptist (they call him Yahya) and believe he was a man sent by God. John the Baptist invited people to wash their sins in River Jordan, Muslims believe in this too. This ancient tradition of washing or making ablution is preserved in Islam and Muslims wash themselves everytime they are aboutto pray. The menaing of baptism took a very different meaning during Paul's era and this is very different to what Jesus or john the Baptist did. Muslims don't believe in the Pauline version because they don't believe in the notion of original sin.

For your questions...

1. I do "baptise" myself everyday before I pray. I clean most of my body and ask for repentance as I do it.

2. What does "walking in the Spirit of Truth" mean? I'm a human being who is trying to do the best he can. We are fallible and find ourselves sinning so what we should try to achieve is the TRUTH. I try to achieve this but I don't know whether I have the confidence to claim that I have achieved it.

3. I acknowlegde that Christ is a Messenger of God and that anyone who doesn't believe in him is on the wrong. I don't believe that he was sent to the whole of humanity even though his message has reached most of humanity. I hope that I can become a 100th of the man he was, that would be progress (na hiyo, ni maendeleo).

4. I believe that the Jews and the Romans conspired to kill him, but Jesus being sent by God, He wouldn't let criminals humiliate His Messenger and spared him the persecution. They thought they succeeded but we know otherwise (I know this challenges the basis of Chirstianity as we have known it in the last centuries but this is my view and that of Muslims).



>Coach Muslims and Christians certainly do have afew things in
>common, like we are all humans, we all live, breath the same
>air and all of us exercise some form of faith, albeit worship
>different Gods, to name but a few. Before I forget, let me
>also say that the surfeit mentioning of Mary and Jesus in the
>Quran is of no meaning. It is one that is meant to
>treacherously lead Christians to believe that “there are,
>after all, some common instances between the two sides.” Thus
>nothing brings us closer to each other with regards to Worship
>of God.

That is your opinion. Where I work, there is a chapel and next to it is a small prayer room. Evrytime I go to pray there, I come across some Christians praying and sometimes meet the padre. When I see him, he is closer to me than someone who doesn't believe in God. He is also closer to me than someone who worships idols or anything other than God the Supremem Being that has created all we see and much more we can't percieve with our eyes. I can't force you to agree with me, but the relationship the Prophet and early Muslims had with Christians show that they were very close. Ever heard of the story of the Negus of Abysinnia and his correspondence with the Prophet? You have a right to believ what you want but Muslims, Christians and Jews have similar origins and a lot in common.



> If that was the case then God would have offered replacement
>long time ago during the days of Adam, why would He wait that
>long, until after Christ had been Crucified? Do you think that
>Christ was the only Messenger of God to have passed through
>persecution? I think not.

The difficulty the Messengers of God endure is a lesson for the whole of humanity. Almost all of God's Messengers endured much hardship, the Prophet Muhamad himself went through a lot of hardship and his journey is a lesson to all Muslims, so is the life of Jesus.



Christ himself clearly tells the
>Pharisees that they have over the years been responsible for
>the death of God’s messengers. Why is it that God only choose
>to replace Christ with another person and did not do the same
>for his other messengers. John the Baptised Himself (Christ’s
>cousin) was guillotined to death yet he was Christ’s
>precursor, one of very lofty importance. He came to prepare
>the way for Christ. Why is that God never saved him from Death
>so that His power could be manifest as you claim? Does it mean
>that other messengers are more special that others according
>to Islam.


Messengers do have different ranks in Islam and the death of John the Baptist, however unfortunate, it did happen in a very brutal manner. But because one prophet was killed, that does not necessarily mean that all can be killed or none was killed. The circumstances were very different and Jesus was indeed held very high by even John the Baptist himself. Read the Gospel of John to see how (in the Bible - i.e. the parable of the good shepherd) where John holds Jesus in a much higher esteem.



>Another thing that would be laughable is the fact that you
>Moslems actually believe in a lair! Christ mentioned his
>impending death more than once. Yet you people insist that he
>did not die on the cross. This can only mean that He lied and
>God lied too. Therefore there was no redemption of mankind!
>This is another reason I say that you Moslems and we
>Christians don’t worship the same deity.


This is where we will probably discuss whether Paul was present at the crucifixion and who the Romans allowed to be there. Let as leave this for another moment since it will be verytime-consuming.




>I think you Moslems are missing something here. It was
>necessary for Christ to die so that we be saved. Without that
>then Salvation and our everything else is in vain.


It is illogical that God (since you believe that Jesus is God) would commit suicide (sincehe could avert his death, being the all-knowing) in order to save humanity. Don't you think this is a bit too stretched? The Christian faith is really declinging in the world, churches are empty while places like football stadiums, horse-racing venues, movies and discitheques are filled in traditionally Chrsitian nations. Would this mean that God's suicide didn't save humanity? How can we reflect on your intepretation of events and not find it difficult to digest?




>Just like we are all God Children we can also on our free will
>decide to be Some else’s Children, by simply refusing to obey
>God. John 8:29-47


True! Some deny His existence and some arrogant people even claim to be God.




>Coach, is God all powerful or not?
>Can He have a son without the occurrence of a union between
>Him and a Woman or not? Adam and Eve are the most common
>examples of God’s ability to beget children without sexual
>indulgence.

This is one of the many cases of anthropomorphism in Christianity. There is also an instance in teh Bible where Adam hears "god's footspteps". God did not beget Adam and Eve, He created them. God has the ability to say BE and it BECOMES! God can create the earth and the heavens in six dys, or six nano-seconds and not be tired, but some of us would foolishly claim AND ON THE SEVENTH DAY, HE RESTED. This is just anthropomorphism that the writers of the Bible imprinted on the hearts of Christians. God does not have any need of humans, we are the ones that need Him. If we were all to deny Him, nothing would be reduced from his Might and Grace. And even if we are all to obey and worship Him, we would not add anythingto His Grace and Might. So saying that God begot a human being and needed rest after creating life is making a mockery of Him. He is beyond that!




>This is where you and Christians don’t agree. All symbols and
>that were given in the old Testament pointed to Christ coming
>and his death. All the prophets who spoke of him saw him dead
>on that cross. Isaiah 53 explicitly calls him the suffering
>Servant, with verse 7 equating him to a “lamb to the
>slaughter”. Verse nine actually mentions his death. Daniel
>9:25-27 Prophesies about the Messiah’s advent and his death.
>If ye Muslims say that ye believe in the prophets of old why
>not believe what the two examples I have given said about
>Christ. They were messengers of God, weren’t they? To say what
>contradicts them is to label God a lair! Why is it so had for
>you Moslems to believe that Christ was actually killed on the
>cross. Also refer to Deuteronomy 16 (for sacrificial
>procedures)


All this was recorded hundreds of years after the death of the Prophet. Show me one genuine document that predates Jesus and talks about his death literally on the cross. Show me that and you will have addded something to my tiny knowledge.




>You people believe that Moses was a messenger of God yet you
>cannot fathom the meaning of the symbolic snake that he hanged
>on the tree, so that when everyone who was bitten by snake
>looked upon the symbol was healed.


Who here is questionning the miracles God enabled Moses to perform?? They are even recorded in the Qur'an, how he performed miracles and the Pharaoh's wizards were baffled and confused. Who here (a Muslim) rejects that Moses even parted a large body of water as he was being chased by the Pharaoh's men? Which Muslim denies that God sent manna and qualis to the Jews as they wondered in the desert?



>You still have no idea why the prophets of God called Christ
>the Lamb of God, why Isaac was spared Abraham's blade so that
>instead a lamb was offered in place of his son. That lamb
>symbolised the coming of the Messiah who would die for our
>sins. Abraham was happy when it was revealed to him in that
>manner. Of all the prophets it seems only Mohammed does no
>recognise the Lamb nature of Christ, hence his follower’s take
>that Christ never died on the Cross.

Abraham's child was going to be sacrificed in Mecca and they built the Ka'ba, so believe me when I tell you we know that story. Jesus was called (and was) a SHEPHERD, not a lamb! he can't be a lamb and a shepherd at the same time. He was the guide, the shepherd, not a lamb that is being led to the slaughterhouse.




>Because of this I have always said that the “Jesus” that you
>people (Moslems) believe in is not known to us in the
>fellowship of Christ. Your Jesus never saved the world, while
>ours did the exact opposite-brought a fallen race closer to
>the father. The “God” you people (Muslims) worship is neither
>our Jehovah. He did not wish to have Jesus save the world,
>while our God did sent Christ to save this world from eternal
>damnation (John 3:16). On this account therefore we can never
>be spiritually at par.

I agree with John 3:15, you know why? Because it says the same thing I keep telling you..."That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." Anyone who doesn't believe in God's Messengers shall perish.



>You claim that had Christ died then the power of the sender
>would be inconsequential. I would say that once again you are
>spiritually lacking on this one. Christ’s death was meant to
>also expose Satan’s full Character. It may be well of you to
>note that before his death Christ had referred to Satan as “a
>murderer from the beginning.”(John 8:44) But who did he want
>to murder from the beginning?
>
>Ans: The Son of God.

He wanted to, but didn't get the satisfaction.



>Christ says that if “ye have seen me, ye have seen the father”
>and that “ no one goes to the father but through me (Christ).”
>All authority, the father has vested in the son. So if you
>don’t want to believe what his death did for you; sorry, mate
>but you just have to contend with the beliefs of the opposing
>side. Simply put- he who is not with us, is against us.

I'm not against you, I just don't agree with your view of a historic event.


>About John 3:16 “the Begotten”, and
>“Son of God”, Son of Man”
>
>You are the one fabricating this verse coach. The word
>BEGOTTEN in greek bible is MONOGENES. The word is a compound
>word, MONO, meaning only, and GENNESIS, meaning birth. "Only
>begotten" (MONOGENES) is used five times by John, three by
>Luke, and once by the writer of Hebrews.


Monogenes is also translated as "unique", "one of a kind", which is what clearly describes Jesus because he was UNIQUE. If laso you insist on the Jesus was begotten, that would mean that he did not exist before his birth and can therefore not be God. Think about it mate.




>This topic is lengthy and requires a lot of time to talk
>about. I will leave it that way in the meantime maybe, when
>time allows, we will plunge ourselves into further discussion
>about this alleged fabrication.

I agree, this is also the last ten days of Ramadan and I don't have a lot of time. I hopewe can go deeper and understand this issue from the root.



>I have not problem with anyone submitting themselves to one
>God. The question is which one God? You realise that in this
>multi-religious world, the One God is a relative phrase. As I
>have already shown above, there are clear differences between
>your God and my God.

There are certain common denominators. I would be believing in the smae God as Christians, Jews, Sikhs etcas long as this God is above all of creation. He should not be needing any of His creation and should not be "human-like" because he is NOT His creation. We beleive in the same God but believe in different paths to Him. As long as you believe in Him, that is a start. If you are genuine in your quest and not blinded by hatred or warped dogma, your heart will lead you to HIM.


>I agree with you that whoever believes in God shall have their
>reward. But then again I must ask you what Kind of belief do
>you have in which God?

God, Mungu, Gud, Jehovah, YHWH, Ilah, Elohim, Eloi, whatever you want to call him.


>>>5. That Mohammed is the Holy Spirit etc
>>I don't know where you got that mate!.
>>Muslims don't use the words "Holy Spirit" to describe any
>>other being than God himself. So whoever told you that lied.
>
>Thank you Coach for that very satisfying answer. I can now
>tell Dadyamaru that his PARAKLETOS reasoning was false and far
>from truth as heaven and earth can be far apart.


I'm glad I was of help. Muslims believe he was nothing but a Messenger - Qur'an 5:99, Qur'an 5:92,16:35, 16:82, 24:54, 29:18, 42:48 and 64:12.



>>Any Muslim who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ is not a
>Muslim
>>(or Moses, David and Solomon for that matter).
>
>If this is the case then coach you are far from being a Muslim
>yourself for obvious reasons.


I'm a Muslim because I believe in all of them.



>>Believing in
>>God's Messengers is one the fundamentals of Islamic Faith.
>>Muslims believe that all these Prophets had the same
>Message.
>>Remember, in the Bible, Jesus was crying out to His Lord
>>saying Eloi Eloi, Lama Sabachtani? (Lord Lord who have thou
>>forsaken me?)
>
>This is the now the second time I see you typing this phrase.
>What I keep asking myself however is whether you really know
>the meaning of that phrase and why Christ loudly uttered
>them.


This phrase makes the claim that jesus is God look a bit absurd. How would he be calling to himself?? He must have been calling out to someone much mightier isn't it?



>>You are very quick to attack Islam but you show very little
>>knowledge of this great faith you like to attack. Jesus and
>>Mohamed had the same Message,
>
>Apart from talking about one God, Jesus preached Salvation,
>Mohammed did not. In fact Mohammed does not shed floodlight
>truth on Christ’s full mission on earth in his Quran, he beats
>around the bush and then is quick to dismiss His death on the
>Cross. Here is one confused man who simultaneously wants to
>profess monotheism and at the very same time cannot resist the
>urge to Exalt Christ amidst denials that the same one God
>actually sent Christ to save humankind. I don’t think Mohammed
>even knew who sent Christ. If he did then he must have swept
>it under the carpet and replaced that with the quranic Islamic
>Jesus. There was a purpose to be achieved by this deliberate
>act of belittling Christ. This one that I will some day
>expound at the risk of being branded a myriad of names.

Shall I show you what He said about Jesus and you can compare notes? I'll even spare you the crucifixion details where we depart.



>As far as am concerned, the last time checked the word Jews
>was not synonymous to the word “world”. Jesus clearly directed
>his followers to go to the world and preach his message. And
>just prior to that John tells that “God love the world so much
>the he sent his only begotten son” so that he could save the
>world. We also know that until the word is gone to all corners
>of the world Christ will not come.


Are we speaking about "begotten" again?


>What is the Islamic reason of why Christ is returning to this
>world in the end? And why Christ , and not Mohammed or any
>other messenger of God. I mean we have Enoch who never tasted
>death, There is Elijah whose righteousness pleased God so much
>He had to send him a heavenly chariot that he may not be
>fanged by the poisons of death.


Muslims believe that Jesus will return in the end of time and defeat the Dajjal (anti-Christ) and that among others Elijah will also return. Perhaps these Hadith will help elucidate this matter further...

-Narrated Abu Hurayrah: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace be upon him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him. Sunnan Abu Dawud 37:4310

-Narrated Malik bin Sasaa:
That the Prophet talked to them about the night of his Ascension to the Heavens. He said, "(Then Gabriel took me) and ascended up till he reached the second heaven where he asked for the gate to be opened, but it was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel replied, 'I am Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' He replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' He said, 'Yes.' When we reached over the second heaven, I saw Yahya (i.e. John) and Jesus who were cousins. Gabriel said, 'These are John (Yahya) and Jesus, so greet them.' I greeted them and they returned the greeting saying, 'Welcome, O Pious Brother and Pious Prophet!;' "


>>Whenever a Prophet of God came, some believed in him and
>some
>>didn't. From the time of Noah, Abraham and also Jesus PBUT
>and
>>even to the time of Prophet Mohamed PBUH.
>
>This is not applicable to Mohammed man. I agree that men of
>God suffered humiliation in the hands men, but Mohammed was
>not a man of God. Even those you claim to have gone through
>rough moments were always shown the coming of the Messiah.
>They were always symbolically reminded of his impeding
>suffering through the Sacrificial Lambs.

If you read his biography you would know better.




>And Mohammed does not even fathom that. Why should I believe
>him? I know one thing, that in the world are many wolves in
>sheepskin. All say, lord! Lord! Yet only a few are true people
>of God. Mohammed’s lengthy literatures on his idea of a god
>cannot guarantee him heavenly passport, least of all, when he
>thinks that there are virgins awaiting his arrival there. The
>dude will be shocked.

What virgins? Are you talking about the parables in the Qur'an talking about paradise? The Qur'an talks about alcohol that doens't give you hangovers, streams of honey, beautiful maidens, delicious fruits and food etc. All thses are not to be taken literally as God uses terms we can relate to. We would only be able to imagine Paradise ifit's explained in a manner we can imagine (i.e. things wecan picture since it would bebeyond anything we can imagine with our limited mind).




>While I cannot and it is not my obligation to impose upon you
>my belief, it is my duty to make sure that this word is heard,
>and the choice left to the hearer.

Ditto.


>Coach, I think you may be going blind. Let me say first of
>that we are not in a court of law. Where even common knowledge
>requires some evidence before a panel of Judges can make
>decisions. Secondly I gave you Historical excerpts a while ago
>on how Muslims set to conquer the world for Allah yet you
>ignored that and has since continued to defame me as a
>baseless person. Tell me if you require that evidence and I
>will give it to you once again.


It is just natural to give references to your claims, otherwise it will only be yo