[TeamManager]

The Vatican has denied that Pope Benedict XVI intended any offence to the Muslim religion

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...an_afp203b.jpg

[teejay]

Well, that remains to be seen. It would however be interesting to see how the Islam world handles this one. I have gone though some of the quotes various Moslem leaders, sects and organizations regarding the pontiff's remarks. Some of them have quit deeper meaning.

According to the Malaysian prime Minster, the pope has crated outrage, which is spreading. I wonder why such an outrage must be elicited by anything said negatively about Islam or its prophet. It is pointless to defend the dead. It was interesting to read how few Islamic Individuals mentioned crusades and even linked them with dark ages. A thousand things have been said about Christianity yet true believers wave no banners cursing the culprits but rather pray for their forgiveness. The true church has passed under the test of fire in the hands of one Roman Catholic religion and yet none not even none has dared to petition Vatican to apologize for its former rogue acts. Muslims should ignore him.

It said that the Swahili people recognize one of their own by their headgears. Hasn’t Benedict met his match in the same field and is now almost close to revealing the truth and that is the cause of all the unrest in Moslem world? You see nobody else knows better truth other than Pontiffs of the Vatican. There must be some very big underlying truth about the wars that were fought between Moslems and Christians (Catholics) in those early centuries, and to my, that is why any tips (such as the one Benedict quoted from) must be shut from faithful adherents of Islam, lest they lead to another things which may open the eyes of the Moslems. I said once that Islam was a creation of Vatican and the Vatican helped it acquire is power for three purposes;

1. Eliminate Jews and Christians (true believers- Also called heretics/ infidels/antipopes).
2. Protect the Augustinian Monks and Roman Catholics.
3. Conquer Jerusalem for his holiness in the Vatican.

This daughter of prostitute honoured the first two but reneged on the third one. This is where the hostility between Catholics and the Moslems begin.

I however wait to see how the Vatican will conduct itself when attacked by the Islam in a similar manner.

If you read more quotes from the BBC web it easier to see how most individuals seem to portray the pope as the Leader of Christendom and thus erroneously hold the opinion that he speaks for Christendom. They seem to regard Him with high respect because in their holy book the Koran, Jesus is regarded as a prophet and if the pope is his representative on earth then he also must be a prophet of God and thus a holy man! In my opinion and those of sane Christians the pope is the leader of the Vatican Religion calling itself Roman Catholic and that Ratzinger’s opinion do not surprise me. Sooner or alter a pope was going to mention it anyway.

I would like to bring to Death’s and Coach attention that what we are witnessing in mid the mid east has got direct blessings of the Vatican, just like I had said earlier. It is unfortunate that Ratzinger has the audacity to indirectly accept the Vatican’s involvmen. Of course you two dismissed me as a person who fancy conspiracy theory. My theory will continue to unravel before your very own eyes. Watch, what I say unto you I say unto all.

Let no person misinterpret my opinion as sympathetic to the pope, but one thing I know is that Benedict is very intelligent and contrary to one EGYPTIAN FOREIGN MINISTER AHMED ABOUL GHEIT remarks that the displays a lack of understanding of real Islam, the pope has all History of Islam at his disposal in the Chambers that house the Vatican library. The library has some of the oldest records of historical events in the world.

[Coach]

>There must be some very big underlying truth about the wars
>that were fought between Moslems and Christians (Catholics) in
>those early centuries, and to my, that is why any tips (such
>as the one Benedict quoted from) must be shut from faithful
>adherents of Islam, lest they lead to another things which may
>open the eyes of the Moslems.


looool. We wouldn't want people to open their eyes to that now would we?


I said once that Islam was a
>creation of Vatican and the Vatican helped it acquire is power
>for three purposes;
>
>1. Eliminate Jews and Christians (true believers- Also called
>heretics/ infidels/antipopes).
>2. Protect the Augustinian Monks and Roman Catholics.
>3. Conquer Jerusalem for his holiness in the Vatican.


When did Muslims "eliminate" Jews and Christians from Jerusalem?



>I however wait to see how the Vatican will conduct itself when
>attacked by the Islam in a similar manner.

It doesn't matter how the Vatican reacts does it? Accordong to you, Islam will still be a creation of the Vatican won't it.


>If you read more quotes from the BBC web it easier to see how
>most individuals seem to portray the pope as the Leader of
>Christendom and thus erroneously hold the opinion that he
>speaks for Christendom. They seem to regard Him with high
>respect because in their holy book the Koran, Jesus is
>regarded as a prophet and if the pope is his representative on
>earth then he also must be a prophet of God and thus a holy
>man! In my opinion and those of sane Christians the pope is
>the leader of the Vatican Religion calling itself Roman
>Catholic and that Ratzinger’s opinion do not surprise me.
>Sooner or alter a pope was going to mention it anyway.

Your conclusions are at the very least laughable. Most of the Christians in the world are Catholics and they follow the pope, so if you want to adress their leader on various issue he would be the person to adress. Just like if the IAEA want to negotiate with Iran on the NPT issue it talks to the appointed representative. Who is the [world] leader for Protestants? Why are they not meeting with him?

You see, Sunni Muslims don't have a spiritual leader but Shi'a do. In Iraq, all Shi'a follow the Ayatollah who is the spiritual leader and if you want to discuss with the Shi'a of Iraq he would be the man you would meet.


>I would like to bring to Death’s and Coach attention that what
>we are witnessing in mid the mid east has got direct blessings
>of the Vatican, just like I had said earlier. It is
>unfortunate that Ratzinger has the audacity to indirectly
>accept the Vatican’s involvmen. Of course you two dismissed me
>as a person who fancy conspiracy theory. My theory will
>continue to unravel before your very own eyes. Watch, what I
>say unto you I say unto all.

Can't wait.



>Let no person misinterpret my opinion as sympathetic to the
>pope, but one thing I know is that Benedict is very
>intelligent and contrary to one EGYPTIAN FOREIGN MINISTER
>AHMED ABOUL GHEIT remarks that the displays a lack of
>understanding of real Islam, the pope has all History of Islam
>at his disposal in the Chambers that house the Vatican
>library. The library has some of the oldest records of
>historical events in the world.

They created it so they must have the original files somewhere.

[satjas]

on deeper analysis the 14 century speech holds some truth to it.....




The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[reggie_woic]

http://www.mymac.com/avatars/stewie.gif

where's the problem with his remarks?
i, like the pope, see something wrong in religiously backed violences....don't you?

[teejay]

>on deeper analysis the 14 century speech holds some truth to
>it.....
>

It surely does Satjas.

================================================== ====================

The fella would not have said what he said, had he seen not the acts of the so-called prophet. I believe the emperor was not mad and neither was he under duress at the time his comments poured out.

One thing I don’t understand is how such a small quote like that can actually get the Islamist going headless an act only reminiscent to that of a mislaughtered chicken. So what if the prophet used the sword to spread his religion? After all it is common knowledge that he did (and that has got nothing to do with ignorance). Jihad is a witness of such( be it greater or smaller if a sword is employed it is jihad). It has been mentioned by the famous Michael Hart in his book, “100 most influential people”(which coach appraised the other day) that the prophet also had political interest, and that combined together with his religious zeal earned him the number one position. Evidence and experience has taught us that Politics and religion is an inedible cocktail. And that No politician can be morally sane at all times. In fact the biggest chunk of their pastime is spent on scheming. The prophet being a man he was not any different a politician. And Emperor Manuel could not have said it any better than what the pope reaffirmed. May be the pope is or has subscribed to some orientalist views, but I’m just hoping Manuel was not an orientalist.

I think Islamists should preoccupy themselves with better issues than chanting antipope slogans thinking that they are doing good for God. No God listens to such nonsense. He does not ask anybody to defend dead prophets nor Him. He only wants us to know him. Religion, regardless of its background (be it Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Hinduism, Budhism, Akorinism, name it all) without Christ is damn useless. And to pursue them in such fanatical manner only makes us lawless fanatics who ignore divine pleadings in favor of worldly directives.

When I look at true Christianity, it is evident that the true church of God has been afflicted innumerable times, the medieval times being the worst of all times. Yet of these vexed souls none has cursed nor spat on the adversary, but to pray for forgiveness and the enlightening of the souls bound in the miasma of the deceit by the enemy. The agency of papacy has rubbished and thrown muck at these yet the spirit of the lord has been with his true people and from one temptation to another they have continued to thrive and grow, only awaiting the return of their lord. While they were murdered and tortured greatly, their bloods became seed and the word continued to spread, they did not hold street protests, but earned their name from the significant dissonance they displayed against false doctrine by asserting the rightful teachings of Christ.

I wonder why Moslems cannot respond to what they call ignorance by letting it pass. By staging global protest and replying to the pope’s comments with equal militant opinion only affirms fully the pope’s reference that indeed theirs is a religion driven by the fuel of violence. Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by violence. If the Muslims feel the pope is telling a lie about the prophet it is only right for them to ignore him and better still pray for him to see the light. I should be seeing mosques full of gown dressed people offering intercessory prayers for the pope. In any case if person speaks garbage about Christ today I would not fight him by waving placards on the street and fill his head with how our prophet is holy and that he is a messenger (Please! let us see that in you in a peaceful manner), I will seek to provide him peacefully with an insight on Christ upon which I will back my word with prayers for that soul. If Mohammed is God’s messenger then the pope is talking bad about God and not Mohammed or Muslim Community.

Muslims, leave the “holy man” alone.

I have heard that religion is the opium of the masses. Every other day that I wake up tp some religious circus I seem to get the root meaning of this philosophy more. Bomb your congregation with religious rubbish and completely hypnotize them under your spell by first instilling fear in them, then direct them however you want and they all aver! God knows what to! Sorry brothers but having observed Catholicism and Islam and a various other cults their characteristics contain the some similar genes.

By the did we know the Catholicism and Islam are political organizations concealing their real identities under ecclesiastical garment?

All acknowledge holy wars.
All venerate Mary.
All Abuse Christ. (Don’t be deceived by the hanging statue at St. Peters)
All oppose true Christianity.
All fight to control the world.
All…… ( may God protect his people)

Waswahili wanatambuana kwa vilemba.

[martin77]

The pope may be right, but surely the Roman catholic church has no moral authority to condemn anyone for religious violence; not with a history of inquisitions, the holocaust (in which this Pope bares a shameful role) and the killings in Nyarubuye Parish and elswehere in Rwanda.

Basically two pigs calling each other dirty.

[spairo]

This time around, the violence should be more and specific; we have soo many Cathedrals in Kenya to vend our anger into.
As earlier stated in another article in this forum, Pope is claimed to be talking through the Holy Spirit…then how come the Holy Spirit tripped big time, this round?
And who gave him the audacity to comment on Islamic issue negative or positive? He should clean his house where Nuns are behaving like prostitute and Fathers, real fathering fellow men in the Church!

[Jibril Cessay]

Spairo, what anger? What happened to rational thought? What happened to submitting to Allah? Where is the peaceful nature Islam teaches? What happened to intellectualism? Is it pointless to have a secular education? When will we ever exercise our right of tolerance? What is the point of killing an innocent nun in Somalia who has absolutely nothing to do with political decisions? What do you want the Pope to do so that u can accept his apology?

"Malaysian Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi says his country accepts the pope's expressions of regret, but he urged the Roman Catholic leader to refrain from making statements that could anger Muslims further. Malaysia chairs the Organization of the Islamic Conference, the world's biggest Muslim bloc."

http://www.voanews.com/english/CN-PO...M-19sept06.cfm

My question to Muslims: How do u want the world to understand the tenets of Islam, if your every interpretation results in violence? How can we foster dialogue with Muslims if we can't candidly discuss stark disparities? How can we understand Islam if there is silence on the Dafur issue, slavery in Mauritania and senseless suicide bombing in Iraq?

[Coach]

teejay,

>One thing I don’t understand is how such a small quote like
>that can actually get the Islamist going headless an act only
>reminiscent to that of a mislaughtered chicken. So what if the
>prophet used the sword to spread his religion? After all it is
>common knowledge that he did (and that has got nothing to do
>with ignorance). Jihad is a witness of such( be it greater or
>smaller if a sword is employed it is jihad).

This is the second time I see you making this claim. I asked you to name the countries that were taken by the sword and the people who were forcefully converted. You are YET to back up your ludicrous claims. Read the history of the world and when you reach the Islamic rule, you will see one pattern, that they were very tolerant and never forced any people to convert. All the Christians and Jews did was pay taxes (Jizya) and they were offered protection by the ruling Muslims. The Muslim populace paid much more and were obliged to help defend the territory (Jews and Christians were required to fight against external enemies but were protected from them). For once stop this hatred that is blinding you and get your facts right.



It has been
>mentioned by the famous Michael Hart in his book, “100 most
>influential people”(which coach appraised the other day) that
>the prophet also had political interest, and that combined
>together with his religious zeal earned him the number one
>position. Evidence and experience has taught us that Politics
>and religion is an inedible cocktail. And that No politician
>can be morally sane at all times. In fact the biggest chunk of
>their pastime is spent on scheming. The prophet being a man he
>was not any different a politician. And Emperor Manuel could
>not have said it any better than what the pope reaffirmed. May
>be the pope is or has subscribed to some orientalist views,
>but I’m just hoping Manuel was not an orientalist.

This is typical Christian thinking. You were taught from historical times to give Ceasar what is due to Ceasar and to God what is due to God. The Chruch and the Emperor's were in constant battle for power. The reason Micheal Hart selected the Prophet is because he is the ONLY leader that succeeded in ALL spheres of life (both spiritual and political). I know this alien to Christian thinking, but in Islam there is no seperation between Church (Mosque) and state. The Laws of God are to rule the people and not some secular laws that violate the Law of God (like in America where the Church is in a constant battle with the state because it sanctions things that are NOT permitted by Christianity).

It is ironic that all of a sudden a Byzantine Emperor has become a model for the truth. The Romans were the most backward empire, they contributed NOTHING scientific to humanity. The only thing they were good at is building roads and fighting wars (killing). But that wouldn't stop teejay from getting some brownie points would it?




>I think Islamists should preoccupy themselves with better
>issues than chanting antipope slogans thinking that they are
>doing good for God. No God listens to such nonsense. He does
>not ask anybody to defend dead prophets nor Him. He only wants
>us to know him. Religion, regardless of its background (be it
>Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Hinduism, Budhism,
>Akorinism, name it all) without Christ is damn useless.

Good does not want people to disrespect Him or His Messengers. What good will believing in Christ be if you disrespect other people and their faiths? I never laugh at or tolerate people who poke fun at Jesus, Moses, Mohamed or any other spiritual figures no matter what faith they belong to. But here we have Christians saying shut up and put up, all is well if you drink some holy water.



>When I look at true Christianity, it is evident that the true
>church of God has been afflicted innumerable times, the
>medieval times being the worst of all times. Yet of these
>vexed souls none has cursed nor spat on the adversary, but to
>pray for forgiveness and the enlightening of the souls bound
>in the miasma of the deceit by the enemy.


I love how things are always at your terms. When I tell you that terrorists do not represent Islam you wouldn't have any of it. Then you have the audacity to talk about "true Christians" and attack the Pope. Whatever the Christians did in history (all the crimes they committed) you ignore because they were not "true Christians" but when someone tells you that fanatics do not represent the true Islam you refuse to listen. Why the inconsistency?



>I wonder why Moslems cannot respond to what they call
>ignorance by letting it pass. By staging global protest and
>replying to the pope’s comments with equal militant opinion
>only affirms fully the pope’s reference that indeed theirs is
>a religion driven by the fuel of violence.

You have no idea what reverence Muslims hold to their faith and Messenger. If you did then you would understand. If someone came to your home with a truck and says that they will take all your belongings (without threatenning you) would you hand your things over or would you try and stop them? If you choose to hand your property over then you belong to a minority of pacifists who even lack the ability to speak for themselves. Majority of people usually defend what they hold dear, whether it is their faith, family members or property. Muslims hold their faith to be dearer than their own family members, if you somehow finda way to understand that then things might be a bit clearer.



Violence can only
>be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by
>violence. If the Muslims feel the pope is telling a lie about
>the prophet it is only right for them to ignore him and better
>still pray for him to see the light.

Most people didn't like what he said and took this option. But the few burning effigies get all the media attention. me and millions upon millionsof Muslims disliked what he said but did nothing but hope he sees the light, but you don't care about that do you? You are more concerned with tehfew burning effigies and shouting "Death to the Pope".




I should be seeing
>mosques full of gown dressed people offering intercessory
>prayers for the pope. In any case if person speaks garbage
>about Christ today I would not fight him by waving placards on
>the street and fill his head with how our prophet is holy and
>that he is a messenger (Please! let us see that in you in a
>peaceful manner), I will seek to provide him peacefully with
>an insight on Christ upon which I will back my word with
>prayers for that soul. If Mohammed is God’s messenger then the
>pope is talking bad about God and not Mohammed or Muslim
>Community.

According to you, the Pope has the blueprints for Islam and the Catholci church made Islam. It is not easy arguing against such an absurd point and even harder when you turn around and talk about praying on behalf of him for intercession.



>I have heard that religion is the opium of the masses. Every
>other day that I wake up tp some religious circus I seem to
>get the root meaning of this philosophy more.

This was uttered by Carl Marx, a son of a rabbi but an atheist at heart. He was referring to Christianity in his era.



Bomb your
>congregation with religious rubbish and completely hypnotize
>them under your spell by first instilling fear in them, then
>direct them however you want and they all aver! God knows what
>to! Sorry brothers but having observed Catholicism and Islam
>and a various other cults their characteristics contain the
>some similar genes.

Fanatacism is everywhere. The first suicide bombers ever were Tamil Tigers, they are neither Catholics not Muslims. have a look at the Jewish ultra orthodox settlers and scrutinise their beliefs, they have more in common with Al-Qaeda than the mainstream monotheistic faiths.



>By the did we know the Catholicism and Islam are political
>organizations concealing their real identities under
>ecclesiastical garment?
>
>All acknowledge holy wars.
>All venerate Mary.
>All Abuse Christ. (Don’t be deceived by the hanging statue at
>St. Peters)
>All oppose true Christianity.
>All fight to control the world.
>All…… ( may God protect his people)
>
>Waswahili wanatambuana kwa vilemba.


Let me shed some light in your dark mind my friend. Muslims abuse Jesus you say? Do you know what the Quran says about Jesus?? Muslims oppose true Christians?? Mary is highly respected and the reasons can be found in the Bible and the Quran. She is afterall the mother of Jesus Christ, would you want that people abused her name? Or cursed her? She was a pious woman who hada miraculous birth. It is one of the most remarkable miracles and perhaps you don't believe it that's why you have a propblem with her.

[5:82] And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.

[5:46] Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.

[2:62 & 5:69] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[3:113-114]. They are not all the same; among the followers of the scripture (Christians and Jews), there are those who are righteous. They recite GOD's revelations through the night, and they fall prostrate. They believe in GOD and the Last Day, they advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and they hasten to do righteous works. These are the righteous.

[3:199] Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD's revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning.

The verses that talk highly about Jesus are so many that I won't even bother posting them here. All youcan do isa quick google searchand you will find plenty to feast on.