[petermaumau]

It is definitely a sensitive subject even in the church..
I do know for a fact it is the root of evil.. going by the things I know I may have been tempted to do for it.
Anyway 1 timothy 6 is a Polemic against prosperity preachers..
A few noteable scriptures..
Verse 5-10
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
But godliness with contentment is great gain.

For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

It breaks families, churches... friendships..
Note the roommate issues that always crop up

As for Jesus
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
.......
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


Wonder why it is so hard.... alternative views welcome!

[ATLian]

I agree with the OTHER saying - "LACK OF money is the root of all evil"

[reggie_woic]

>I agree with the OTHER saying - "LACK OF money is the root of
>all evil"

whether or not you see it ATLian, that still means money is still the root of all evil.

[m4one]

Money in itself as an entity is not evil. It the LOVE for money that is the root of all evil. Money is a tool by which we conduct our business, exchange goods and services for money. However, like any other tool, it can be misused by the handler for selfish ends. Greed is a form of love for money. It brings about corruption, scandals, money laundering schemes etc.

Now dont get me wrong. There's nothing wrong in desiring to make money. Thats what drives us to succeed, excell in business etc. But if all this noble efforts are driven by greed, then we fall short and lose character. People cut corners to get contracts, insider trading to make a quick buck on stocks, bribery and kickbacks etc.

[chotadipo]

@m4one,

>..It the LOVE for money that is the root of all evil

Why would I bother makin something that I do not love? Sounds paradoxical to me

>Now dont get me wrong. There's nothing wrong in desiring to
>make money. Thats what drives us to succeed, excell in
>business etc. But if all this noble efforts are driven by
>greed, then we fall short and lose character. People cut
>corners to get contracts, insider trading to make a quick buck
>on stocks, bribery and kickbacks etc.
>

What is noble about wanting more and more money? I don't think money belongs to the subclass of endeavours described as 'noble', that is why you will find it is rated lower than knowledge and spirituality. Confuscious and the Hindus were not wrong eons ago...they are still right even today.

[m4one]

>What is noble about wanting more and more money? I don't think
>money belongs to the subclass of endeavours described as
>'noble', that is why you will find it is rated lower than
>knowledge and spirituality. Confuscious and the Hindus were
>not wrong eons ago...they are still right even today.

You seem to have missed the point I was trying to make by a mile! I pose to you these questions then: Is there anything wrong with waking up every morning and going to work? Is there anything wrong when a farmer works and tills his land everyday in a given season? Or the merchant that sells his wares at the local store? The common denominator in all these everyday activities is profit ie more money. Do NOT confuse greed with profit. Otherwise if you hate making profit, you might as well close your business, quit going to work or forget about cultivating your land. Then try to explaining that to your family when there's no food on the table!

[chotadipo]

>You seem to have missed the point I was trying to make by a
>mile! I pose to you these questions then: Is there anything
>wrong with waking up every morning and going to work? Is there
>anything wrong when a farmer works and tills his land everyday
>in a given season? Or the merchant that sells his wares at the
>local store? The common denominator in all these everyday
>activities is profit ie more money. Do NOT confuse greed with
>profit. Otherwise if you hate making profit, you might as well
>close your business, quit going to work or forget about
>cultivating your land. Then try to explaining that to your
>family when there's no food on the table!

I think we should agree to disagree on this one. For one, the common denominator should be well being and not more money. I go to work, I till the land, I trade so that I can at least cater for my well being. If by doing any of the above, I realised more money, it should not in anyway change my base pursuit, which was catering for my well being.
The second point would be on relatives. How much more do I need for 'more' to turn into 'greed'?. How much profit should I make not to be considered 'greedy'? This line of logic does not aply to intelletual or spiritual pursuits because by nature they are etheral, unlike simple trade. However complex you want to imagine it to be, the art of making money can be reduced to a simple eqaution, input = output + profit(loss). You cannot subscribe this formula to knowledge or spirituality.

Maybe I did not get your point...

[ATLian]

I still contend that it's the LACK OF money that's the root of all evil.

I don't have the exact statistics, but I can bet 90% of those in jail are there for a money-related issue. Either they sold drugs to get money, they stole, they killed while robbing, they committed fraud, etc. It's logical to assume that someone who commits a crime in order to get X dollars wouldn't commit that crime if he already had those X dollars on him. It's this lack of money that drives him to commit the evil crimes.



>What is noble about wanting more and more money?

@Chotadipo,

If Kenya had as much money as the US, we would have better infrastructure, health facilities, educational institutions, financial institutions, access to credit, more food, etc etc etc. This would eradicate the unnecessary deaths brought about by poverty, it would increase our productivity, life expectancy, etc. People would be hapier, they'd have more time to dedicate to the things that really matter, they'd have a better purpose for living, etc. I'd say that that is a noble reason for wanting more money.

I remember a parable of Jesus where some rich guy left his 3 servants with a certain amount of money each. One invested it and doubled the money, the other also invested and also got some returns, while the 3rd one just buried the money and got nothing from it. The other two were praised while the 3rd one got into trouble. Coming from Jesus, this clearly means that wanting more money by itself is not evil, and it is infact the noble thing to do.



>I think we should agree to disagree on this one. For one, the
>common denominator should be well being and not more money.

How can a person who has to do a back-breaking job that pays him only 30% of what he needs to provide for his family daily have "well being"? It's money that provides that. If I have enough money to know that me and my family are well fed, clothed, have a roof over our heads, my kids go to a good school and they have the uniforms, books and stuff to do well, we are insured for health, fire, theft, death, etc, then I will obviously be in a better state than someone with only 50 bob to their name.

[chotadipo]

@Atian said...I still contend that it's the LACK OF money that's the root of all evil.

I'll contend that it is the LACK OF a definitive Ethical standard that is the cause of all evil.

@Atian said...If Kenya had as much money as the US, we would have betterinfra structure, health facilities, educational institutions, financial institutions, access to credit, more food, etc etc etc. This would eradicate the unnecessary deaths brought about by poverty, it would increase our productivity, life expectancy, etc. People would be hapier, they'd have more time to dedicate to the things that really matter, they'd have a better purpose for living, etc. I'd say that that is a noble reason for wanting more money.

The assumption you are making here is that the money is being put into GOOD use. Therein lies the paradox. I would counter that by saying Equitorial Guinea has more disposale money per capita than US with an economy growing at an astounding 65%p.a. due to oil, but all that money is not being used to provide happiness to her people. They fail the ethical test.

@Atian said...I remember a parable of Jesus where some rich guy left his 3 servants with a certain amount of money each. One invested it and doubled the money, the other also invested and also got some returns, while the 3rd one just buried the money and got nothing from it. The other two were praised while the 3rd one got into trouble. Coming from Jesus, this clearly means that wanting more money by itself is not evil, and it is infact the noble thing to do.

I think you take this literally. A standard the Jews have used to justify making money at all cost yet deny Jesus as one of them. Me thinks Jesus meant the now often quoted English phrase of putting ones lot in one basket is not a wise thing. I think Jesus meant divesture and insurance as a better alternative, and not making more.


@Atian said...How can a person who has to do a back-breaking job that pays him only 30% of what he needs to provide for his family daily have "well being"? It's money that provides that. If I have enough money to know that me and my family are well fed, clothed, have a roof over our heads, my kids go to a good school and they have the uniforms, books and stuff to do well, we are insured for health, fire, theft, death, etc, then I will obviously be in a better state than someone with only 50 bob to their name.

Again the assumption you are making here is in putting an abitrary percentage and going ahead to assume he cannot sustain himself with that. I would not do that for the simple reason that it is not necessarily how much you make but how much you spend that determines if you will live well or not. Tell me, if I have 50 bob to my name and ATLIAN has 500 bob to his name, does that automaticlly make ATlian richer and happier than me? Looks are decieving Atlian.

[Death]

>I do know for a fact it is the root of evil

Child molesters, rapists, serial killers etc... these are not crimes motivated by the persuit for money. Or the lack thereof. So clearly we cannot say that money is the root of ALL evil


>I'll contend that it is the LACK OF a definitive Ethical
>standard that is the cause of all evil.

This again falls short, as there are people who plain and simply don't care. I.E people who know X is wrong, but choose to do it anyway. A sociopath will commit monstrous acts regardless of any definitive moral ethical standard.

I contend that the root of all evil is plain and simply a failure in empathy. The second one fails to empathize with another human beings plight, is the second immorality becomes not just possible, but inevitable