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Default RE: Is your faith real or bogus? - 07-13-2006, 10:18 AM

>A few useful links
>
>Why the 1st day of the week?
>http://www.bible.ca/7-sunday-1st-day.htm


TM so many times I am asking you and others of your ilk to refrain from involving SDAs in this discussions, but you just wont listen. You seem to have a problem with this people. Anyway whatever your issues with them.

On Ps 118:22-26 http://www.bible.ca/7-ps-118-new-day-sunday.htm
PART ONE

TM to think that I have always had great respect for you in regards to spiritual rather than religious matter is rather an amusement. I never knew that you can hold bile against God’s truth. The opinion you hold of bible is low. In my view I see a person who regards man’s directives as supreme, and as above God’s established authority. The above quote you have posted here is one that has been used for defense by your likes for centuries. Even Luther himself scrutinized it and found no such thing as what you say here. In part two of my reply I will solely draw evidences from my previous studies and pass them to you and anybody else who doubts, that Sunday is not supported anywhere in the scriptures as a hallowed Worship day.

Let me tackle some of the issues that the above Psalms has generated

1. It is obvious that resurrection day, is the day the Lord Made.

I did revision on that reading and what I never saw in any of its parts is where it says that “ This new day, that the Lord has made is Sunday.” In fact no any other portion of the bible mentions Sunday as being a hallowed worship day. That however is not to say that we should not worship God on any other part of that week. To that end exalting God’s name on any day is a noble thing to do.

2. Resurrection day is Sunday.

Of course the resurrection is on Sunday. Does the Lord after his resurrection make a proclamation that “from now henceforth all ye my followers shall hallow this day and keep it holy?” NO. Moreover it was common for Christ to quote from the OT. He is not mentioned anywhere quoting the above Psalms in favour of Sunday, and even when He appears to John in the book of Revelation he is still steadfast in his original laws, which he shows him, safely tucked in the Ark of Covenant in the Heavenly Sanctuary. Why hasn’t He God discarded them from His Temple in Heaven? Why is he sternly cautioning us against dishonoring his divine laws in Revelation? Why is He even bothering to pass to us His prophecy at all if we cannot hearken unto the message therein?

3. Sunday is the day the Lord made!

Utter rubbish. The above Psalms does not and will never be given as evidence for that. If the lord has made Sunday that day then why did he make an about turn saying that not even letter from the law shall be altered until heaven and earth shall pass away. TM in your opinion do you think heaven and earth has passed away. Previously you held opinion that since the apostles worshipped on the first day of the week, it meant that Sunday was ordained and replaced Sabbath. I challenged that by posting a Topic on Sabbath, where I said that none of them is mentioned as having authorized such a change. There is simply no evidence.

4. The first day (Sunday) is the Lord’s Day!

It is foolish to make that assumption! That coming from person who claims that salvation came his way at age 13 is ridiculous. Any day in my view is the Lord’s day and Sunday is in that Category. But then there a special day which even Adam, Noah, Abraham, David(who you are quoting above in Psalms) right through to Jesus observed. Reading through that book of Psalms David talks of God’s laws with such high regards and even reveals that they will last forever! Where do you get the notion that Ps 118:22-26 authorizes any one to do otherwise. This is misuse of scriptures. The quote itself is even talking about a different thing altogether.
If I may elaborate. This key psalm, primarily is fulfilled in Christ as shown by the use of this verse in the New Testament (Matthew 21:42; Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:7). According to Jewish tradition the stones for Solomon's temple, quarried and shaped far from the temple site, included one odd-shaped stone, which did not fit anywhere. It was to be the main cornerstone (possibly capstone) of the entire structure. We see that people had rejected Christ. To them he was a mere son of a carpenter. He could not be the one to deliver them from the yokes of Roman Rule, after all he was meek in appearance, not an army in sight to back him up. It was a joke for him to be called King of the Jews! He is thus the rejected stone. We Christians recognize His Value in our lives and to us he is our Fortress, a rock of hope, peace, stability and spiritual prosperity.

WHICH THEN IS THE LORD’S DAY?

In the book the “History of Protestantism,” Sunday was relabeled the Lord’s day by the Bishop of Rome who sought to bring some spiritual importance to this day, seeing that RCC’s attempts to have the day followed through decrees they were enforcing via the Roman rulers had failed. Initially it was subtly made a day in honor of Christ’s resurrection by it authors, but the masses who stuck by the bible ignored it. It became apparent that more needed to be done. It was then that persecution of bible believing Christians begun. It still did not deter them who are just and live by faith. They sojourned through the tribulation until a decree was issued out that forbade laymen to read the bible. This marked the beginning of what History calls the DARK AGES. God of course is greater. Thank be to him, we still have our bibles here today and we still have the Sabbath with us today.

IN BIBLE the Lord’s day is

Joel 2:1-11( Day of Judgement)

“Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand…… And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

Isaiah 2:10-12, 20-21( Day of Judgment)

“Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low………. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.”

WHAT TAKETH PLACE THAT DAY?

Daniel 12:1-3
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Rev 16:17-21
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Sabbath

Then of the other day is Sabbath for which I have preciously spoke in great details.

Other days.

Then Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. All these being created by God.







 


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Default RE: Is your faith real or bogus? - 07-13-2006, 11:45 AM

>History of the 1st day worship
>http://www.bible.ca/7-history-sabbath.htm

First all what is the meaning of Sabbath
The author of the article in the above link you have posted here is the most misinformed person I have met. It is better that I meeting him through his deceptive works. If this is what you call “by Faith” then I’d rather be unfaithful than to trouble my spirit with fanatical usurpers.

Sabbath means in Hebrew a day of rest. It entails a ceasing or resting from labor in respect for the day during which God rested after having completed the Creation in six days. For a grown person who could peruse through articles and find out what it means to say that it does not appear in the book of Genesis is sad. TM is there no place in your bible, Genesis where it says the lord rested on the seventh day?
It is true the word Sabbath in itself does not appear, but don’t you think its prudent to find out what it means. Besides there were no Hebrew people until after the floods. How does one expect the word to appear in Genesis prior to that. Its like telling me that the word NGUKU is not there in the bible. The non-existence of word does not hinder the existence of that subject. Sabbath is Hebrew.
Were the 10 commandments abolished?

Frankly speaking I don’t know and I have never come across such a text in my bible.

Let us Once again God through these Divine precepts. Oh how I love thy commandments lord. Before that we should take into account that these commandments were not spoken at the time the House of Jacob was in the desert exclusively for the benefit of the Hebrews. God honored them by making them the guardians and keepers of His law, but it was to be held as a sacred trust for the whole world. The precepts of the Decalogue are adapted to all mankind, and they were given for the instruction and government of all. Ten precepts, brief, comprehensive, and authoritative, cover the duty of man to God and to his fellow man; and all based upon the great fundamental principle of love. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." Luke 10:27. See also Deuteronomy 6:4, 5; Leviticus 19:18. In the Ten Commandments these principles are carried out in detail, and made applicable to the condition and circumstances of man.

Commandment 1: "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."

Jehovah, the eternal, self-existent, uncreated One, Himself the Source and Sustainer of all, is alone entitled to supreme reverence and worship. Man is forbidden to give to any other object the first place in his affections or his service. Whatever we cherish that tends to lessen our love for God or to interfere with the service due Him, of that do we make a god.

Commandment 2: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them."

The second commandment forbids the worship of the true God by images or similitude. Many heathen nations claimed that their images were mere figures or symbols by which the Deity was worshiped, but God has declared such worship to be sin. The attempt to represent the Eternal One by material objects would lower man's conception of God. The mind, turned away from the infinite perfection of Jehovah, would be attracted to the creature rather than to the Creator. And as his conceptions of God were lowered, so would man become degraded.

Commandment 3: "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God.Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me. Showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me, and keep My commandments."

The close and sacred relation of God to His people is represented under the figure of marriage. Idolatry being spiritual adultery, the displeasure of God against it is fitly called jealousy.
It is inevitable that children should suffer from the consequences of parental wrongdoing, but they are not punished for the parents' guilt, except as they participate in their sins. It is usually the case, however, that children walk in the steps of their parents. By inheritance and example the sons become partakers of the father's sin. Wrong tendencies, perverted appetites, and debased morals, as well as physical disease and degeneracy, are transmitted as a legacy from father to son, to the third and fourth generation. This fearful truth should have a solemn power to restrain men from following a course of sin.

In prohibiting the worship of false gods, the second commandment by implication enjoins the worship of the true God. And to those who are faithful in His service, mercy is promised, not merely to the third and fourth generation as is the wrath threatened against those who hate Him, but to thousands of generations.

Commandment 3: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain."

This commandment not only prohibits false oaths and common swearing, but it forbids us to use the name of God in a light or careless manner, without regard to its awful significance. By the thoughtless mention of God in common conversation, by appeals to Him in trivial matters, and by the frequent and thoughtless repetition of His name, we dishonor Him. "Holy and reverend is His name." Psalm 111:9. All should meditate upon His majesty, His purity and holiness, that the heart may be impressed with a sense of His exalted character; and His holy name should be uttered with reverence and solemnity.
Commandment 4: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it."

The Sabbath is not introduced as a new institution but as having been founded at creation. It is to be remembered and observed as the memorial of the Creator's work. Pointing to God as the Maker of the heavens and the earth, it distinguishes the true God from all false gods. All who keep the seventh day signify by this act that they are worshipers of Jehovah. Thus the Sabbath is the sign of man's allegiance to God as long as there are any upon the earth to serve Him. The fourth commandment is the only one of all the ten in which are found both the name and the title of the Lawgiver. It is the only one that shows by whose authority the law is given. Thus it contains the seal of God, affixed to His law as evidence of its authenticity and binding force.

God has given me six days wherein to labor, and He requires that their own work be done in the six working days. Acts of necessity and mercy are permitted on the Sabbath, the sick and suffering are at all times to be cared for; but unnecessary labor is to be strictly avoided. "Turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on My holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable; and . . . honor Him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure." Isaiah 58:13. Nor does the prohibition end here. "Nor speaking thine own words," says the prophet. Those who discuss business matters or lay plans on the Sabbath are regarded by God as though engaged in the actual transaction of business. To keep the Sabbath holy, we should not even allow our minds to dwell upon things of a worldly character. And the commandment includes all within our gates. The inmates of the house are to lay aside their worldly business during the sacred hours. All should unite to honor God by willing service upon His holy day.

Commandment 5: "Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee."

Parents are entitled to a degree of love and respect which is due to no other person. God Himself, who has placed upon them a responsibility for the souls committed to their charge, has ordained that during the earlier years of life, parents shall stand in the place of God to their children. And he who rejects the rightful authority of his parents is rejecting the authority of God. The fifth commandment requires children not only to yield respect, submission, and obedience to their parents, but also to give them love and tenderness, to lighten their cares, to guard their reputation, and to succor and comfort them in old age. It also enjoins respect for ministers and rulers and for all others to whom God has delegated authority.

This, says the apostle, "is the first commandment with promise." Ephesians 6:2. To Israel, expecting soon to enter Canaan, it was a pledge to the obedient, of long life in that good, land; but it has a wider meaning, including all the Israel of God, and promising eternal life upon the earth when it shall be freed from the curse of sin.
Commandment 6: "Thou shalt not kill."

All acts of injustice that tend to shorten life; the spirit of hatred and revenge, or the indulgence of any passion that leads to injurious acts toward others, or causes us even to wish them harm (for "whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer"); a selfish neglect of caring for the needy or suffering; all self-indulgence or unnecessary deprivation or excessive labor that tends to injure health--all these are, to a greater or less degree, violations of the sixth commandment.

Commandment 7: "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

This commandment forbids not only acts of impurity, but sensual thoughts and desires, or any practice that tends to excite them. Purity is demanded not only in the outward life but in the secret intents and emotions of the heart. Christ, who taught the far-reaching obligation of the law of God, declared the evil thought or look to be as truly sin as is the unlawful deed.

Commandment 8: "Thou shalt not steal."

Both public and private sins are included in this prohibition. The eighth commandment condemns man stealing and slave dealing, and forbids wars of conquest. It condemns theft and robbery. It demands strict integrity in the minutest details of the affairs of life. It forbids overreaching in trade, and requires the payment of just debts or wages. It declares that every attempt to advantage oneself by the ignorance, weakness, or misfortune of another is registered as fraud in the books of heaven.

Commandment 9: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

False speaking in any matter, every attempt or purpose to deceive our neighbor, is here included. An intention to deceive is what constitutes falsehood. By a glance of the eye, a motion of the hand, an expression of the countenance, a falsehood may be told as effectually as by words. All intentional overstatement, every hint or insinuation calculated to convey an erroneous or exaggerated impression, even the statement of facts in such a manner as to mislead, is falsehood. This precept forbids every effort to injure our neighbor's reputation by misrepresentation or evil surmising, by slander or tale bearing. Even the intentional suppression of truth, by which injury may result to others, is a violation of the ninth
commandment.

Commandment 10: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's."

The tenth commandment strikes at the very root of all sins, prohibiting the selfish desire, from which springs the sinful act. He who in obedience to God's law refrains from indulging even a sinful desire for that which belongs to another will not be guilty of an act of wrong toward his fellow creatures.

Such were the sacred precepts of the Decalogue, spoken amid thunder and flame, and with a wonderful display of the power and majesty of the great Lawgiver. God accompanied the proclamation of His law with exhibitions of His power and glory, that His people might never forget the scene, and that they might be impressed with profound veneration for the Author of the law, the Creator of heaven and earth. He would also show to all men the sacredness, the importance, and the permanence of His law.

WHAT IS THE LAW OF CHRIST?(Gal 6:2)

In order to understand this we must peruse through Christ’s teaching and find out what the core teaching enabled. We will also compare the GAL 6:2 and GAL 6:5

Christ’s doctrine was that of love. In fact his works dwelt on helping humanity as well as obeying his father all this he summed in two great laws

1. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind.

2. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Isn’t this a summary of the Ten commandments, which KEMI has proceeded me in expounding.

Take a look at Galatians.

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. And,

Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
Am sure most people who read these two texts will see discrepancy, but that’s not it. The Greek words are different. In verse 2, the word means "human frailties;" in verse 5, it means "responsibility." That is, we should help one another as needed, but not depend on others to do what we can well do for ourselves.
After that explanation then we see that again Christ’s summed up law represented.

The rest of the Issues raised in the Site I leave for Adventists to answer, but as I have read History none of them can stand the test of Historical scrutiny. To Say that this never happened is to say that God is a liar and that the prophecy Given unto Daniel was false. I pity those people who dont read their bibles. They can easily be derailed by this gibberish falsehood.



 


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Default RE: Is your faith real or bogus? - 07-13-2006, 12:36 PM

Hmmm...the commandments were nailed to the cross. That explains why their priests molest young boys and some are even open homosexuals. That explains why the catholic church murdered thousands of people because the commandment 'thou shalt not kill' is now obsolete. No wonder the Pope was once a Nazi who now goes to poland and drinking is banned while him and the president are drowning liquor kinonsense :7 And that explains why the likes of Deya ministries are spreading coz 'thou shalt not steal' is an obsolete commandment.

Teejay, am proud of you. You stand for the truth. You are like Atlian(on the right side of course). Let those with ears hear and those with eyes see.
 


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Default RE: Is your faith real or bogus? - 07-13-2006, 09:12 PM

>Jesus is the source of faith.
>Real faith is believing in what Christ has done for us.

TeeJay,

I hope you're kidding. I can prove you wrong easily. One of my best pals happens to be a Hindu, so I attended a Hindu wedding a couple of weeks ago in a Hindu Temple. The wedding involves prayers to many gods, coz each god blesses a different aspect of their lives.

His folks had come in from India for the wedding and they are very devout Hindus. They have a ton of faith in their gods, especially Ganesh (the elephant-headed god) because he's the main god of their part of India. The dad was telling his son how he should always pray, believe in Ganesh, ask for blessings from him, blah blah blah, coz nothing is possible without Ganesh's blessings. He then gave examples of himself, how he's been succesful and lived for a long time coz of his great faith and constant prayers to Ganesh.

My point is - they have great faith and their faith has NOTHING to do with Jesus. They know nothing about Christianity. Zero. They have no idea who the Holy Ghost is. They also believe that the only source of faith is in their gods. So what you wrote above, especially the two points I have pasted above, is not only wrong, but it's also extremely condescending and arrogant.

You need to realize that other people who pray to different deities also have great faith in their deities. It is not only Christians who have faith, and it is not only Jesus who can give you that faith. Tafadhali step outside your Christian box and realize that you are but one religion and other people can also have faith in their gods.
 
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Default RE: Is your faith real or bogus? - 07-13-2006, 09:58 PM

>Hmmm...the commandments were nailed to the cross. That
>explains why their priests molest young boys and some are even
>open homosexuals. That explains why the catholic church
>murdered thousands of people because the commandment 'thou
>shalt not kill' is now obsolete. No wonder the Pope was once a
>Nazi who now goes to poland and drinking is banned while him
>and the president are drowning liquor kinonsense :7 And that
>explains why the likes of Deya ministries are spreading coz
>'thou shalt not steal' is an obsolete commandment.
>
>Teejay, am proud of you. You stand for the truth. You are like
>Atlian(on the right side of course). Let those with ears hear
>and those with eyes see.

Okay Kemi that bashing is unwarranted. The Catholic Church may be responsible for a lot of atrocities, but so are other churches. A lot of protestants, esp Lutherans don't even know that the founding father Martin Luther was anti-Semitic and even said that the believers should kill all the Jews because they were Jesus killers. Also look at the protestants and Catholics killing each other in Ireland presently. The problem is that when people argue religious doctrine they make it a matter of bashing people and their actions rather than picking apart the doctrine and philosophies.
 
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Default RE: Is your faith real or bogus? - 07-13-2006, 10:57 PM

Milanya,

I am being sarcastic. Why? Coz, I could start picking the bad behavior of lots of adventists pastors.

My point was, we know those things are sinful coz they are clearly forbidden in the bible. In other words, if we got rid of those commandments, what r we really left with? Is it ok now to worship idols? And what is to prevent someone else from saying this and that in the bible no longer applies? If the commandments were nailed to the cross, does that mean sinning in the heart e.g lusting after a woman is obsolete? Can we now marry and divorce willingly? Am I making sense?
 
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Default RE: Is your faith real or bogus? - 07-14-2006, 02:01 AM

.
 
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Default RE: Is your faith real or bogus? - 07-14-2006, 02:02 AM

triple post
 
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Default RE: Is your faith real or bogus? - 07-14-2006, 02:10 AM

Okay Kemi.
I believe the commandments are still valid. In the sense that God is still displeased when we break them, and that grace is not cheap. The whole idea of real faith is that if you have genuine faith than good works shall flow from you. So you cannot have genuine faith and have ONLY bad works. It's like a man who tells a woman he loves her, but yet he blatantly ignores, disrespects, beats her, cheats on her. That isn't true love.
 
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Default RE: Is your faith real or bogus? - 07-14-2006, 05:00 AM

>>Jesus is the source of faith.
>>Real faith is believing in what Christ has done for us.
>
>TeeJay,
>
>I hope you're kidding. I can prove you wrong easily. One of my
>best pals happens to be a Hindu, so I attended a Hindu wedding
>a couple of weeks ago in a Hindu Temple. The wedding involves
>prayers to many gods, coz each god blesses a different aspect
>of their lives.
>
>His folks had come in from India for the wedding and they are
>very devout Hindus. They have a ton of faith in their gods,
>especially Ganesh (the elephant-headed god) because he's the
>main god of their part of India. The dad was telling his son
>how he should always pray, believe in Ganesh, ask for
>blessings from him, blah blah blah, coz nothing is possible
>without Ganesh's blessings. He then gave examples of himself,
>how he's been succesful and lived for a long time coz of his
>great faith and constant prayers to Ganesh.
>
>My point is - they have great faith and their faith has
>NOTHING to do with Jesus. They know nothing about
>Christianity. Zero. They have no idea who the Holy Ghost is.
>They also believe that the only source of faith is in their
>gods. So what you wrote above, especially the two points I
>have pasted above, is not only wrong, but it's also extremely
>condescending and arrogant.
>
>You need to realize that other people who pray to different
>deities also have great faith in their deities. It is not only
>Christians who have faith, and it is not only Jesus who can
>give you that faith. Tafadhali step outside your Christian box
>and realize that you are but one religion and other people can
>also have faith in their gods.

ATlian my good old friend did you for one minute stop to read the Heading of the Post? Just to remind you, We are talking about Bogus faith VS Real faith.

You ATlian is on record as a person having no respect for God, at least that how is see you as per your posts, and that is why you are always sneering at God and rather seem to elevate other Anti- Jehova faiths. I have no respect for anything that tramples on God's Holy precepts. Therefore to me the faith you are talking about herein is bogus.Real faith is faith in God,my God, Abraham's God,Jacob's God, and Yes the God Joshua bravely asserted that will be the God of his family, He who sends his son into earth..
 


"The whole world, from President [George W.] Bush downwards, was engaged in trying to strike a power-sharing deal. If that power-sharing deal made Odinga number three, we'd have never accepted it." - Salim Lone
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