[teejay]

>Here you make a classical error by interpreting the actions of
>an individual as "Islam". Surely you can tell the difference
>can't you?

Coach it is true that what you say, but since Dady takes him/herself as righteous representtive of Islam. It is hard to differentiate him/her from Islam.

Again Islam is a way of life. I gather s/he is just putting his islamic life into use. Thus this is an individual moslem.

[fgitonga]

The Prophet was a sage in all respect but how comes he ended up marrying his first wife, a nine year old? He was not even sure that Allah was speaking to him and instead had to seek mental health re-assurance from his friends/wife. Does this sound like a source of knowledge?

[fgitonga]

At least the missionaries didn't castrate Africans who were slaves and second class humans. What happened to all those eunachs serving courts in Saudi Arabia and other moslem lands? In anycase, the direction of prayer was Jerusalem before it was changed to Mecca. Reason? The unbelief of Jews. Personaly, i wouldn't call that an ultimate source of knowledge.

[fgitonga]

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides God, if your
(doubts) are true.
-- Qur'an 2:23 (trans. A. Yusuf Ali)

Although as a Christian I certainly can't claim to be impartial in matters of religion, I have always been a little put off by the challenge in Qur'an 2:23.

A minor objection is that aesthetics can never be a measure of truth. Although truth can certainly be beautiful, so can lies. On the other hand, truth can sometimes be unattractive - like an uncut diamond, or a boring sermon.
Still, I'm not sure that's a major obstacle. It could plausibly be argued that Allah was not making beauty the measure of truth, so much as he was making the Qur'an's beauty a sign to doubters. It's a subtle distinction, but I think it's valid - not unlike Moses besting the sorcerers of Egypt with his miracles. Miracles never became the standard of truth in a logical sense (most of us have probably heard of "lying wonders"), but Moses's miracles were a sign that Allah was with him.

[fgitonga]

There is a subtle but very real circularity for believing Muslims. The circularity goes like this: If you're an orthodox Muslim, you believe that the entire Qur'an is the very word of God, and is therefore inerrant. As an implication of this, he or she also believes that there is no other writing as eloquent as the Qur'an. Therefore, any attempt to "produce a Sura like thereunto" must fail - thus verifying that the Qur'an is the very word of God and inerrant. In fact, the verse following the challenge affirms the impossibility of producing such a Sura, and threatens disbelievers with the Fire whose fuel is men and stones:

But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
-- Qur'an 2.24 (trans. A. Yusuf Ali)

It is no surprise, then, that Muslims have found no sura equal to the Qur'an. The surprise would be if they had, since even admitting the possibility of a better Sura contradicts 2:24, which says "of a surety ye cannot," hence being a sign of disbelief.
When I see a challenge like this it does not convince me of the Qur'an's truth. It does rather the opposite, making me suspect that the message is false. (By the way, I mean no offense to any Muslims who may read this. I just couldn't think of any inoffensive way to say this.)

It seems to me that the real test of truth is how well it stands up when stripped of eloquence:

When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
-- 1 Corinthians 2:1-5

Eloquence is a good thing, a powerful servant of truth. But it is also fickle, serving falsehood as eagerly as truth. So, how well do the messages of Islam and Christianity stand up on their own merits? Now that's a question worth debating.

[fgitonga]

Now that the Truth has come to them from Us, they are saying: "Why is he (Muhammad) not given the like of what was given to Musa?" Have they not rejected that which was given to Musa before? They claim: "These (Torah and Qur'an) are the two works of sorcery complementing each other!" And they say: "We believe in neither." Ask them: "Bring a Book from Allah which is a better guide THAN THESE TWO, I will follow it, if what you say be true!" S. 28:48-49 Malik

Muhammad challenges the unbelievers to bring a book which is not only a better guide than the Quran, but also better than the book of Moses!

Note: There exists a variant reading in Sura 28:48. However, most translators render the passage similarly to the above quoted translation by F. Malik.

[Coach]

> The Prophet was a sage in all respect but how comes he
>ended up marrying his first wife, a nine year old? He was not
>even sure that Allah was speaking to him and instead had to
>seek mental health re-assurance from his friends/wife. Does
>this sound like a source of knowledge?


fgitonga,
First of all, the Prophet's first wife was Khadija, a divorcee who had been married twice before. When they got married, the Prophet was 25 years old and she was 40. Secondly, if you intend to talk about the issue of Aisha's age, I would refer you to the posts that have covered this issue several times. Thirdly, the Prophet did not go to seek confirmation from others on whether what he experienced was Divine or "seek mental health re-assurance" from his wife or friends. Divine contact is something very traumatic for the corporeal being and what he experienced was natural. Moses was terrified when he had a Divine encounter and did not even dare to look directly, this is recorded in the Bible [Exodus 3:5].

Let me ask you...do you speak Arabic? Do you know much about Arabic rhymed poetry and prose? Arabic ryhmed poetry falls into 16 categories (or Bihar meaning Seas). All Arabic poetry falls into one or more of these categories. The thing is, the Qur'an doesn't fall into ANY of the 16 categories, it shocked the Arab polytheists so much in its eloquence that they started calling the Prophet a sorcerer for producing that kind of work. This was at a time when Arabic poetry was at its summit. If you don't speak Arabic or know about the rules of Arabic rhymed poetry and prose, do you think you are in a position to question or challenge anything? This would be like a Mexican who can't speak English judging the language used by Shakespear in his works.







"The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr" Prophet Muhammad PBUH

[dadyamaru]

@FGITONGA
1rst i dont knw where to put u,
i can c u r quoting verses frm the quran, n explaining them,
My question is do u understand them?
Allah says in the holy Quran,Islam is the just religion, further more, He promised to protect Qur'an.
as a muslim, nothing will make me doubt my religion or verses in the Holy quran.

Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend. (The Noble Quran, 4:125)"


"Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).' (The Noble Quran, 3:64)"

Allah Almighty created all mankind with different races, mentality and beliefs; "O mankind! [this includes all races and all nations] We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted. (The Noble Quran, 49:13)"

[chotadipo]

>@FGITONGA
>1rst i dont knw where to put u,
>i can c u r quoting verses frm the quran, n explaining them,
>My question is do u understand them?

I think he does understand them. The difference would be that his understanding of them is different from yours or the agreed interpretation thereof.

>Allah says in the holy Quran,Islam is the just religion,
>further more, He promised to protect Qur'an.
>as a muslim, nothing will make me doubt my religion or verses
>in the Holy quran.
>
No body questions that, the same way a christian, jew, Hindu or a traditionalist would not doubt his holy book.

>Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole
>self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the
>true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend. (The
>Noble Quran, 4:125)"
>
Saying the above risks one being labeled as having blind faith.

>"Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)!
>Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship
>none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that
>we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other
>than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness
>that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).'
>(The Noble Quran, 3:64)"
>
You will find similar verses in all holy books. Quran is just one of them.

>Allah Almighty created all mankind with different races,
>mentality and beliefs; "O mankind! [this includes all races
>and all nations] We created you from a single (pair) of a male
>and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye
>may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the
>sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has
>full knowledge and is well-acquainted. (The Noble Quran,
>49:13)"
>
I don't know about creating mankind with different races. Please enlighten me on this. The white christians have done poorly in justifying races according to the bible. I would like to see a Quranic version of the genesis of races.

[dadyamaru]

@chotadipo
I don't know about creating mankind with different races.
Please enlighten me on this. The white christians have done
poorly in justifying races according to the bible. I would
like to see a Quranic version of the genesis of races

this is the verse
Allah Almighty created all mankind with different races,
mentality and beliefs; "O mankind! [this includes all
races and all nations] We created you from a single (pair) of
a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes,
that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you
in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah
has full knowledge and is well-acquainted. (The Noble Quran,
49:13)"