[petermaumau]

I was party to a heated Argument as to whether It is God who lets bad things happen,sometimes to nice people.. What would you say if a doctor steals drugs from a public hospital and the shortage leads to the Death of a poor patient, who is to blame..Surely God did not do it ,it is the corrupt doctor..
But God is adamant, in Isaiah 45:7 I am God,Good and Evil I do it all...It says..
ANd what about when In Romans 9 it is written that god hardens whom he wil..So is God responsible for hardening the hearts of Men agaist the Message..
Exacly and Whom he will He saves.. ALl a gracious gift..

[reggie_woic]

Simply put, God is independent of all of man's actions (is that correct to say?).
That's all there is to it.

[ATLian]

>Simply put, God is independent of all of man's actions (is
>that correct to say?).

Reggie,

but there's that famous saying that everything happens according to god's will. EVERYTHING! Meaning that even evil is according to god's will. That makes sense, because anything else means god is not in control, and things are happening outside his will and power.

Plus like Peter wrote above, god said in Isaiah 46: 6-7 "I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL."

[teejay]

>but there's that famous saying that everything happens
>according to god's will. EVERYTHING! Meaning that even evil is
>according to god's will. That makes sense, because anything
>else means god is not in control, and things are happening
>outside his will and power.

Jehovah’s Will is love. This love is embosomed in the Ten Commandments and the ultimate sacrifice of christ . We all know what Love is dont we.

God wills that we exercise that love and have faith in him. That way we can receive abundant blessings. That will can only be this famous.

>Plus like Peter wrote above, god said in Isaiah 46: 6-7 "I am
>the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create
>darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL."

ATlian, it is you who create evil by misquoting the bible. Read well my friend. Below is the correct phrase.

Isaiah 46: 6- 7 says,"They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.

[Devine]

Free will also plays a role. God may have a plan for you but if you make choices that are not consistent with his plan then you take a detour.

[ATLian]

>ATlian, it is you who create evil by misquoting the bible.
>Read well my friend. Below is the correct phrase.
>
>Isaiah 46: 6- 7 says,"They lavish gold out of the bag, and
>weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he
>maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.They bear
>him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his
>place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove:
>yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save
>him out of his trouble.


TeeJay,

I apologise, and you are right, what you have typed is Isaiah 46:6-7. I had a typo, what I meant to write was Isaiah 45: 6-7: "I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

So now that we have established that god, not me, created evil, what is your Christian apologetic explanation?

[reggie_woic]

ok i did alot of googling, and this is what i came up with.
this guys tries to explain isaiah 45. it seems like he's reaching, but it kinda makes sense.

http://www.churches.com/bible/biblestudy/abs115.html

this one isn't exactly better
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/create_evil.html

[ATLian]

Reggie,

every time there's a verse in the Bible that paints god in a positive light, it is taken literally. e.g. "God loves children" is always going to mean exactly that - God loves children! You'll never hear anyone saying that "no, he doesn't really love children, what he meant was....." But every time there's a controversial verse that paints god in a negative light, then all the apologists come out and try to re-explain to us what it means.

This verse is as straightforward as they come. We are quoting god verbatim here for heaven's sake. Do you think he'd stumble on his own words? He would have known from Day One what ambiguity would exist if he said the words as he said them, so an all-wise god would have removed the ambiguity. But he didn't, which implies that he meant what he wrote. In fact these apologists are committing blasphemy by trying to spice up the words that came from god's own mouth, and by telling us that god didn't mean what he said.

If you still argue that god was misquoted, then you can't argue with the fact that god created Satan, the source of all evil. Billions of years before he made Satan, god knew what havoc Satan was going to bring about. But he still created him. Doesn't that make him the number one culprit?

If you say god didn't create evil, then you are saying that there exists something which god not create. This opens other doors, like what else apart from evil didn't god create? And this really drops a bomb on the Christian notion of creation where they say god created EVERYTHING both tangible and intangible.

Finally, in all those verses I have been quoting where god commanded the Israelites to kill the infants... If they were not commanded to do so by god, the Israelites would NOT have killed the infants, since that's not how man fights his wars. But god made them do that evil deed, meaning he created that evil in them. Using this line of thought, you can come up with a million other such examples

[teejay]

>I apologise, and you are right, what you have typed is Isaiah
>46:6-7. I had a typo, what I meant to write was Isaiah 45:
>6-7: "I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light,
>and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD
>do all these things."
>
>So now that we have established that god, not me, created
>evil, what is your Christian apologetic explanation?

ATlian

Apology accepted brother. So now let see what you are up to with chapter 45:6-7. I knew that you were getting at that initially, but I wanted you to see your mistake. I was in no hurry to correct it coz I already knew what I would tell you in the event that you rectified that mistake.

Now that you did, let me start by saying I think your have one problem. You don’t do candid research and reading of the bible and that is why you continually paste biblical phrases and more phrases that you don’t clearly fathom.

I always advocate for thorough reading and study of the Bible word by word and book to book.

The verse that you pasted here means a very different thing from your pasted intention. By saying that “He God creates evil,” He simply means that he withdraws his mercy so that those who disregard his ways can do as they please. But we always find in the bible that every time God withdraws his mercy, the stubborn House of Jacob always welcomed lots of trouble(read evil).Thus evil is created in that way by God. Asiyesikia la mkuu hawezi tena kusema eti mkuu huyo ndiye anayemtumbukiza kwenye majuto, ila hila zake mbaya. Mkuu anapoamuwa kulegeza masharti yake ili kumpa anayeasi nafasi yake muasi, na kutazama kwa kando, basi hawezi kulamiwa tena, Mkuu. Kwa namna hiyo uovu unatendeka (ndiposa bibilia ikasema “I create evil”).

When reading the bible you must always take not of very important notes such as

- the time a word or phrase is uttered
- to whom it is directed
- and why it said to them that way.
- In addition, be careful to take note of the Culture under
which some biblical events occur.

That way you are not in danger of misreading or misquoting the holy texts.

[petermaumau]

If I may say.. It is true that God does everythig..Indeed you can be more specific in that Jesus created this world, Colosians 1> And he came and died for it..!!!!!
Anyway, There is nothing that Supprises God.. since he does it all.Nobody ever decided the environment or time that one was born but how come then it can decide where you go heaven or Hell..But GOd did..
As it is written it is not to him who wills but God who shows the Mercy. He chose you to know that Jesus Christ is the Messia so that if you believe you shall not die but have everlasting life.. Whatever you decide to do it was predestined for you to do..And if it was upto us.. then Jesus would not have commented of Judas in John 16 that No one is lost but the son of Perdition that the scripture should be fulfilled..Did Judas have a choice..?Yes But It was made for him..
So if you accept christ,and have by faith,righteousness to eternal life, what do you do..Praise your own great coice..Thank the Lord for having mercy..And that is what grace is all about, a gift, not of works... He is a good God...
but if your heart is hardened so that you refuse the gracious message,you were destined for the fire anyway...