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Default RE: who does evil - 06-11-2006, 02:20 PM

>Whatever you decide to do it was
>predestined for you to do..
>but if your heart is hardened so that you refuse the gracious
>message,you were destined for the fire anyway...

Petermaumau,

what you're saying is we don't have the choice to go to heaven or hell, it was already pre-destined from Day One. Meaning we don't have free will. So why even try? For all we know maybe I've been destined to go to heaven despite my atheism and all your hours on end praying and believing will come to naught since you have been destined to go to hell.

I'm sure most Christians would disagree with your words above.
 
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Default RE: who does evil - 06-11-2006, 02:20 PM

peterkamau,
i believe we're playing for the same team, but with mixed up rules.

when you say that God does eveything, do you also mean our actions?

 
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Default RE: who does evil - 06-12-2006, 01:51 AM

Consider this reaoning.I found it interesting

http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/...article_01.htm

RICARDO still remembers sitting with his wife, Maria, in the doctor's waiting room. * Neither of them had the courage to read the results of Maria's latest medical examinations. Then, Ricardo opened the envelope, and they hastily glanced over the medical language of the report. They spotted the word "cancer," and both began to cry as they realized the full import of that word.

"The doctor was very kind," recalls Ricardo, "but he obviously realized the gravity of the situation because he kept telling us that we had to trust in God."

The doctor kept telling us that we had to trust in God

Before radiation treatment had begun, Maria's doctor noticed involuntary movements in her right foot. Further tests revealed that the cancer had spread to her brain. After just one week of treatment, the radiation was suspended. Maria slipped into a coma and died two months later. "I was glad that her suffering had ended," explains Ricardo, "but I missed her so much that I found myself wishing that my life would come to an end too. Often, I would cry out to God: 'Why did you allow this to happen?'"

When Tragedy Strikes, Questions Abound
Like Ricardo, countless people throughout the world are forced to face up to the reality of suffering. Many times, it is the innocent who suffer. Think of the heartrending grief caused by the relentless armed conflicts that plague mankind. Or consider the pain felt by the numerous victims of rape, child abuse, domestic violence, and other evils committed by man. Throughout history there seems to have been no limit to the injustice and pain that men and women have been willing to inflict on one another. (Ecclesiastes 4:1-3) Then there is the anguish of victims of natural disasters or of emotional, mental, and physical illnesses. It is little wonder that many ask, "Why does God allow such suffering?"

Even for those with religious convictions, suffering is never easy to deal with. You too may wonder what reason a loving, all-powerful God could possibly have for permitting human suffering. Finding a satisfying and truthful answer to this puzzling question is vital for our peace of mind and our relationship with God. The Bible provides such an answer.
OVER the centuries, the question of why God allows suffering has challenged many philosophers and theologians. Some have asserted that since God is all-powerful, he must ultimately be responsible for suffering. The writer of The Clementine Homilies, an apocryphal second-century work, claimed that God rules the world with both hands. With his "left hand," the Devil, he causes suffering and affliction, and with his "right hand," Jesus, he saves and blesses.

Others, unable to accept that God could permit suffering even if he does not cause it, have chosen to deny that suffering exists. "Evil is but an illusion, and it has no real basis," wrote Mary Baker Eddy. "If sin, sickness, and death were understood as nothingness, they would disappear."—Science and Health With Key to the Scriptures.

In the wake of the tragic events of history, especially from the first world war until our day, many have reached the conclusion that God is simply unable to prevent suffering. "The Holocaust has, I think, dismissed any easy use of omnipotence as an attribute appropriate to God," wrote Jewish scholar David Wolf Silverman. "If God is to be intelligible in some manner," he added, "then His goodness must be compatible with the existence of evil, and this is only if He is not all-powerful."

However, claims that God is somehow an accomplice to suffering, that he is unable to prevent it, or that suffering is a mere figment of our imagination offer scant comfort to those who suffer. And more important, such beliefs are utterly at odds with the just, dynamic, and caring God who is revealed in the pages of the Bible. (Job 34:10, 12; Jeremiah 32:17; 1 John 4:8) What, then, does the Bible say about the reason why suffering has been permitted?

How Did Suffering Begin?
God did not create humans to suffer. On the contrary, he endowed the first human couple, Adam and Eve, with perfect minds and bodies, prepared a delightful garden to serve as their home, and assigned them meaningful, satisfying work. (Genesis 1:27, 28, 31; 2:8) However, their continued happiness depended on their recognizing God's rulership and his right to decide what was good and what was bad. That divine prerogative was represented by a tree called "the tree of the knowledge of good and bad." (Genesis 2:17) Adam and Eve would demonstrate their subjection to God if they obeyed his command not to eat from that tree. *

Tragically, Adam and Eve failed to obey God. A rebellious spirit creature, later identified as Satan the Devil, convinced Eve that it was not in her best interests to obey God. In fact, God was supposedly depriving her of something highly desirable: independence, the right to choose for herself what was good and what was bad. Satan claimed that if she ate of the tree, 'her eyes were bound to be opened and she was bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.' (Genesis 3:1-6; Revelation 12:9) Seduced by the prospect of independence, Eve partook of the forbidden fruit, and Adam soon did the same.
That same day, Adam and Eve began to experience the results of their rebellion. By rejecting divine rulership, they lost out on the protection and blessings that subjection to God had afforded them. God evicted them from Paradise and told Adam: "Cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground." (Genesis 3:17, 19) Adam and Eve became subject to sickness, pain, aging, and death. Suffering had become a part of human experience.—Genesis 5:29.

Settling the Issue
Someone may ask, 'Could God not have simply overlooked Adam and Eve's sin?' No, because that would have further undermined respect for his authority, perhaps encouraging future rebellions and resulting in even greater suffering. (Ecclesiastes 8:11) In addition, condoning such disobedience would have made God a party to wrongdoing. The Bible writer Moses reminds us: "God's works are perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he." (Deuteronomy 32:4, footnote) To be true to himself, God had to allow Adam and Eve to suffer the consequences of their disobedience.

Why did God not immediately destroy the first human couple along with Satan, the invisible instigator of their rebellion? He had the power to do so. Adam and Eve would not have produced offspring subject to a legacy of suffering and death. However, such a demonstration of divine power would not have proved the rightfulness of God's authority over his intelligent creatures. Furthermore, had Adam and Eve died childless, that would have signaled the failure of God's purpose to fill the earth with their perfect descendants. (Genesis 1:28) And "God is not like men . . . Whatever he promises, he does; he speaks, and it is done."—Numbers 23:19, Today's English Version.

In his perfect wisdom, Jehovah God decided to allow the rebellion to proceed for a limited time. The rebels would have ample opportunity to experience the effects of independence from God. History would demonstrate beyond doubt mankind's need for divine guidance and the superiority of God's rule over man's or Satan's. At the same time, God took steps to ensure that his original purpose for the earth would be fulfilled. He promised that a "seed," or "offspring," would come who would 'bruise Satan in the head,' eliminating once and for all his rebellion and its damaging effects.—Genesis 3:15, footnote.

Jesus Christ was that promised Seed. At 1 John 3:8, we read that "the Son of God was made manifest . . . to break up the works of the Devil." This he did by laying down his perfect human life and paying the ransom price to redeem Adam's children from inherited sin and death. (John 1:29; 1 Timothy 2:5, 6) Those who truly exercise faith in Jesus' sacrifice are promised permanent relief from suffering. (John 3:16; Revelation 7:17) When will this happen?

An End to Suffering
The rejection of God's authority has caused untold suffering. It is fitting, then, that God should use a special expression of his authority to end human suffering and accomplish his original purpose for the earth. Jesus mentioned this divine provision when he taught his followers to pray: "Our Father in the heavens, . . . let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth."—Matthew 6:9, 10.

The time that God has allowed for humans to experiment with self-government is about to end. In fulfillment of Bible prophecy, his Kingdom was established in the heavens in 1914 with Jesus Christ as its King. # Shortly, it will crush and put an end to all human governments.—Daniel 2:44.

During his brief earthly ministry, Jesus provided a foregleam of the blessings that the restoration of divine rule will bring to humanity. The Gospels provide evidence that Jesus showed compassion for members of human society who were poor and discriminated against. He healed the sick, fed the hungry, and resurrected the dead. Even the forces of nature obeyed his voice. (Matthew 11:5; Mark 4:37-39; Luke 9:11-16) Imagine what Jesus will accomplish when he uses the cleansing effect of his ransom sacrifice to benefit all obedient mankind! The Bible promises that by means of Christ's rule, God "will wipe out every tear from [mankind's] eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore."—Revelation 21:4.

Comfort for Those Who Suffer
How heartening it is to know that our loving and all-powerful God, Jehovah, cares for us and that he will shortly bring relief to mankind! Usually, a seriously sick patient willingly accepts treatment that will cure him even if it is very painful. In the same way, if we know that God's way of handling matters will bring eternal blessings, that knowledge can sustain us no matter what temporary difficulties we face.

Ricardo, mentioned in the preceding article, is one who has learned to draw comfort from the Bible's promises. "After my wife's death, I felt a strong desire to isolate myself," he recalls, "but I soon realized that this would not bring my wife back and would only worsen my emotional state." Instead, Ricardo stuck to his routine of attending Christian meetings and sharing the Bible's message with others. "As I felt Jehovah's loving support and noticed how he answered my prayers in seemingly small matters, I drew closer to him," says Ricardo. "It was this awareness of God's love that enabled me to endure what certainly was the worst trial I had ever faced." He admits: "I still miss my wife very much, but I now firmly believe that nothing Jehovah allows to happen can cause us lasting harm."
Do you, like Ricardo and millions of others, yearn for the time when mankind's present sufferings "will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart"? (Isaiah 65:17) Be assured that the blessings of God's Kingdom are within your grasp if you follow the Bible's advice: "Search for Jehovah . . . while he may be found. Call to him while he proves to be near."—Isaiah 55:6.

To help you do this, make the reading and careful study of God's Word a priority in your life. Get to know God and the one whom he sent forth, Jesus Christ. Strive to live in harmony with God's standards and thus show that you are willing to submit to his sovereignty. Such a course will bring you greater happiness now despite the tests that you may have to face. And in the future, it will result in your enjoying life in a world free of suffering.—John 17:3.

 
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Default RE: who does evil - 06-12-2006, 09:29 AM

We definitely are..And yes God does have control over our actions.. You see,It is him who wills us to do of his good will..But Not to be confused to sit around,coz that is also an action ,whatI mean is That You are just an actor in this great Drama Called Life,and GOd the director..Whoseover He wills He hardens,Whosoever He wills He softens.. Indeed GOd is a mystery since with all this we still have free will,now that I cannot explain..
 
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Default RE: who does evil - 06-12-2006, 02:32 PM

>We definitely are..And yes God does have control over our
>actions.. You see,It is him who wills us to do of his good
>will..But Not to be confused to sit around,coz that is also an
>action ,whatI mean is That You are just an actor in this
>great Drama Called Life,and GOd the director..Whoseover He
>wills He hardens,Whosoever He wills He softens.. Indeed GOd is
>a mystery since with all this we still have free will,now that
>I cannot explain..

so he makes us do evil then punishes us with eternal fire...that hardly seems like a loving God, don't you think?
 
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Default RE: who does evil - 06-14-2006, 01:04 PM


It may seem unfair,but who are we to question GOd..Paul alo asks the same rhetorical question in Roman 3 and Romans 9 and it says, What right doe a thing made have to quetion its maker..If the maker chose it to be ugly then that is just it.. We must humble ourselve before GOd and toe the line since He made us thank Him if He ha been merciful to you to let you know the truth and pray that He may also reveal it to those who you are concerned about..
 
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Default RE: who does evil - 06-14-2006, 02:24 PM


That’s Paul’s era, we can forgive them for thinking that way. Now science has advanced, actually people can change there appearance; are you defying God by doing that. I’m really ugly; I have never denied that fact. What if I checked myself in surgery and did a complete overhaul of my face to look like Denzel. I know that’s pushing it but for the sake of the argument, would God be angry at me for going against his wishes. Are you discouraging women to do plastic surgery to look pretty or boost self esteem? What if someone was involved in a horrid accident and lost the beauty, does God allow reconstructive surgery to reclaim what was lost. All I’m trying to do is understand your argument there Mr. petermaumau
 
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Default RE: who does evil - 06-15-2006, 11:05 AM

>We definitely are..And yes God does have control over our
>actions.. You see,It is him who wills us to do of his good
>will..But Not to be confused to sit around,coz that is also an
>action ,whatI mean is That You are just an actor in this
>great Drama Called Life,and GOd the director..Whoseover He
>wills He hardens,Whosoever He wills He softens.. Indeed GOd is
>a mystery since with all this we still have free will,now that
>I cannot explain..

Now Peter am not just about to cluster you with ATlian and the rest in one Boma, nay not just yet.

I suggest you read well and where you don't understand, ask.
Are aware of what you are saying? Did you stop to think about it for one second or you or you are just playing Nicodemus.

My life is not a Drama. Thats how different I am from you. And I believe in something called “change”. That word would not exist then predestination would be a a true fact.

We are given "choices" to make. There is no way you are going to sit there having made a choice to steal my bike (relax..of course you haven’t stolen it) and start saying that it is God who planned it that way. Are you saying that God is a thief? We sure do know that other people die thieves without repenting.

Think again this way; if you were predestined to doom why would God sent Christ to this earth?
 


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Default RE: who does evil - 06-16-2006, 04:07 AM


Yes science has advanced, infact who do you think is in charge of it all ? Or do you think it is a coincidence that we know much more in the last 150 years than all the previous generations... I am reminded that the Egyptians with their mind defying construction of the pyramids advocated Human waste as treatment for most diseases, now we know that the Bacteria there will kill you.. But now there are people who can make Highways on Pillars and can also do succesful brain surgeries.. I am convinced that GOd is the one who has revealed it all to us..at this time and there is a purpose..Definitely a subject for another day.
As for being ugly, I can say that beauty is a fleeting thing as many ladies may attest... HOw many people do you think can afford a plastic surgeon.. IF God has given you an opportunity and a place to change where you think he made a mistake ,go ahead and do it, but i dare remind you,just look back and see all the things,and even temptations that your so called ugly looks have kept you from.. And the things they helped you do...
As for predestination I will just give some examples..
Look at Judas,and why did christ say that none is lost but the son of perdition that the scriptures may be fulfilled..and He continues to pronounce his jUdgement that it had been better if he were not born..
Then he gets to JOhn 17 where He is praying his Last..Note He says that HE is not Praying for all the world, but those whom God had given Him.. And He emphasized as much..

Or let us Go to Romans 8:23-24
All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to his purpose.....And those He FOREKnew ,them He called, them He Justified and them He glorified..

Jesus came for that which was lost..

ANd IT actually says in Romans 9 that He can suffer the vessels meant for destruction just to show his goodness to those he has mercy on...
That is the reason He sent Pharaoh it says

FOr God So loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that WHosoever Believes in hIm shall not Perish but have everlasting life...

Now many stumble at the believing. GOd controls all things is all I am saying

 
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