[Coach]

teejay,

How does a child born to someone by his wife become illegitimate? Polygamy is not forbidden even though it seems this is what you are insinuating. The Bible clearly says that one should not discriminate among the children even if the mother of that child is not loved. This means that Isaac can not be named as "the only child" when Ishmael is also Abraham's son and older than Isaac. Read carefully...

"If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:

"Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:

"But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his." -DEITRONOMY 21:15-17

I would like it if you looked at these verses and understood what they meant because they contradict what you hold to be Christian belief.



The Bible says taht if one marries a second wife that he should take care of her...

"If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish." - EXODUS 21:10

David had several wives and concubines...

"And David took him more concubines and wives out of Jerusalem, after he was come from Hebron: and there were yet sons and daughters born to David." - 2 SAMUEL 5:13

This shows that there is no talk of "illegitimate according to God" because the Bible contradicts this. I can even quote several verses from the NT that shows how pious Christians practised polygamy if you wish.







>>2. Which of the sons of Abraham (Ishmael or Isaac) was to be
>>offered as sacrifice according to the Christian faith?
>
>Of course Isaac….. “And he said, Take now thy son, thine only
>son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of
>Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of
>the mountains which I will tell thee of….”


So what about the verses that say that Isaac was not even born when the covenant was made with Abraham and the males in his household were circumcised? Doesn't it put all the talk about "your only son Isaac" in doubt? Think rationally with all the evidence in front of you mate.

[Zelda]

@ coach: i'd like to have a look at this "bible study guide" you're using.... :)
your qns made me run back to the OT to see what you were talking about.

i found more references:

Genesis 25: 1-6
Abraham again took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah. Jokshan begot Sheba and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, Letushim, and Leummim. And the sons of Midian were Ephah, Epher, Hanoch, Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah. And Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac. But Abraham gave gifts to the sons of the concubines which Abraham had; and while he was still living he sent them eastward, away from Isaac his son, to the country of the east.

Genesis 25: 12-20
Now this is the genealogy of Ishmael, Abraham’s son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah’s maidservant, bore to Abraham. And these were the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; then Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadar,[a] Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael and these were their names, by their towns and their settlements, twelve princes according to their nations. These were the years of the life of Ishmael: one hundred and thirty-seven years; and he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people. (They dwelt from Havilah as far as Shur, which is east of Egypt as you go toward Assyria.) He died in the presence of all his brethren.
This is the genealogy of Isaac, Abraham’s son. Abraham begot Isaac. Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah as wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padan Aram, the sister of Laban the Syrian.

Genesis 21: 8-18
So the child grew and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the same day that Isaac was weaned. And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing. Therefore she said to Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac.” And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham’s sight because of his son. But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.” So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away. Then she departed and wandered in the Wilderness of Beersheba. And the water in the skin was used up, and she placed the boy under one of the shrubs. Then she went and sat down across from him at a distance of about a bowshot; for she said to herself, “Let me not see the death of the boy.” So she sat opposite him, and lifted her voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad. Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, “What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand, for I will make him a great nation.”


points of interest:
1. abraham took yet another wife, keturah, who bore him 6 more children.

2. ishmael fathered 12 sons. kind of parallel to jacob's 12 sons (12 sons/ tribes of israel). what is it about the number 12? have you read about numerology in the OT?

3. 25: 12 and 25: 19 refer to ishmael and isaac as abraham's sons. the sentence construction is parallel. seems to imply some kind of equality.

4. according to 25: 6, abraham gave gifts to his concubines' sons and sent them east, away from isaac. the giving of gifts implies recognition of legitimacy.

5. 21: 11, abraham is displeased with the suggestion that hagar and ishmael be expelled. this seems to imply that, at least in his eyes, his son ishmael is legit.

[Americanized]

Call me Eminem. Without me to cause controversy, Spairo's and Coach's religious threads go nowhere...

[TeamManager]

>I'd like to ask some of the knowledgable Christians here some
>questions about their faith.
>
>1. According to Christianity, was Ishmael the son of Abraham
>an illegitimate child?

For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
Gal 4:22,23,30,31


>2. Which of the sons of Abraham (Ishmael or Isaac) was to be
>offered as sacrifice according to the Christian faith?

Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about." Gen 22:2

[veritas]

>I'd like to ask some of the knowledgable Christians here some
>questions about their faith.
>
>1. According to Christianity, was Ishmael the son of Abraham
>an illegitimate child?
>
>2. Which of the sons of Abraham (Ishmael or Isaac) was to be
>offered as sacrifice according to the Christian faith?
>
>
>
>
>PS: Let's leave any hatred and prejudice at the door and
>discuss in a civil manner. Thank you!
>

>"The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the
>martyr" Prophet Muhammad PBUH


How is this chronological birth order related to Christian faith? or whether sacrificials of a particular inheritance make a difference to belief? Obviously you already know these answers but whatever point you are trying to raise is irrelevant to Christian faith because it is C-H-R-I-S-T-ian faith and not Abraham in which we celebrate the Eurcharist. Parables and examples serve well in applying everyday principles providing you apply the relevant ones but faith itself is a Christ element which has nothing to do with birth order nor ligitimacy in births.

[teejay]

>How does a child born to someone by his wife become
>illegitimate? Polygamy is not forbidden even though it seems
>this is what you are insinuating. The Bible clearly says that
>one should not discriminate among the children even if the
>mother of that child is not loved. This means that Isaac can
>not be named as "the only child" when Ishmael is also
>Abraham's son and older than Isaac. Read carefully...

This is how. Abraham never married Hagar as a second wife but went in her and conceived a child after the advice of her wife Sarah. Do no justify polygamy because it is embedded within the pillars of the traditions of your religion. It is simply a ploy for men to carry out their lustrous ambitions. It is true Children must be loved like you say but then When Ishmael is sent away Isaac remains the only child in that sense why do you want make complicated yet it is simple reading that 2(Ishmael & Isaac)-1(Ishmael)=1(Isaac)

Polygamy to my understanding should mean the act of amassing many women with the intention of making them wives to a single man. But the act of commencing sexual relations with another woman or man be it gainfully or gainless as pertaining to procreation either on one’s counsel or another person advice does not and is not an equivalent of marriage and does not warrant the use of titles wife and husband until such a time that it shall be so decided by the participants. In addition to that, polygamy does not encompass this type of relation. Notice Abraham telling Sarah that the sole role of dealing with her maid servant(s) rests with her. Abraham specifically refers to her as servant and not “my wife.”


>"If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and
>they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated;
>and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
>"Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that
>which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved
>firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the
>firstborn:
>"But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the
>firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath:
>for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the
>firstborn is his." -DEITRONOMY 21:15-17

You say it well that if a man has two wives, but Abraham had one wife Sarah the other woman (Hagar) is a servant and the bible clearly refers to her as so. She never became Abrahams’s wife.

You have very well quoted the book of Deuteronomy neatly. Remember this culture you are talking about in Deut several hundred years later and rules are erected to govern that society that applies to that period. These people had been in Egypt and had copied unisraelite habits. They do not apply in Abraham’s time. Reading further God is telling Abraham not to worry about Ishmael for he will bless him too, but he is not the one that he is going to make a covenant with.

>I would like it if you looked at these verses and understood
>what they meant because they contradict what you hold to be
>Christian belief.

Not at all Coach. I do believe that God created one woman for one man and the fact that men feel comfortable to pile the women behind them in polygamous settings does not make it right and will not. It lust that plays it victorious role in driving these unresisting creature to do so.

>The Bible says taht if one marries a second wife that he
>should take care of her...
>
>"If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her
>duty of marriage, shall he not diminish." - EXODUS 21:10

Proceed with verse 11.

>David had several wives and concubines...
>
>"And David took him more concubines and wives out of
>Jerusalem, after he was come from Hebron: and there were yet
>sons and daughters born to David." - 2 SAMUEL 5:13

David continued to marry and that did not tether still until he desired to commence illicit affairs. Notice the use of the word concubines in place of the illicit affairs.

>This shows that there is no talk of "illegitimate according to
>God" because the Bible contradicts this. I can even quote
>several verses from the NT that shows how pious Christians
>practised polygamy if you wish.

You people baffle me. Do you mean to say that if it is written that teejay was married to many a woman in the scriptures then that licenses all persons to say it acceptable. These things are written so that we can learn from them. In them there are valuable lessons.

[Coach]

TM,

>For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave
>woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave
>woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free
>woman was born as the result of a promise.
>But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman
>and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the
>inheritance with the free woman's son." Therefore, brothers,
>we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free
>woman.
>Gal 4:22,23,30,31

Free woman or not, Hagar was the LEGAL wife of Abraham (PBUH) and was given to him by his wife (Genesis 16:3.). Genesis 16:3 tells us that she was a LEGITIMATE wife and the Bible also says that one should NOT discriminate among his children ...

"If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:

"Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:

"But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his." (Deutronomy 21:15-17.)

What do we learn from these verses? That...

- If a man has two wives, one hated and one loved and the hated one has the older son then her son should get DOUBLE inheritance because he is "the neginning of his strength, the right of the first-born is his".

We all know that the OT is older than the NT and that Galatians was letters written by Paul. OT which deals with teh story of Abraham PBUH tells us that one should not discriminate but Paul who wrote the Galatians tells us that the child of a slave woman is not worth the same as the child of a free woman. Which carries more weight in your eyes?

TM, tell me here for I am a bit confused...part of the Bible (the same OT) says that one SHOULD NOT DISCRIMINATE and you just posted a part that says that one SHOULD DESCRIMINATE, which is the right one to follow?



PS: The Bible also says that Sarah and Abraham PBUH are from ths ame father (of blood relation), what is this about, can you explain further? Does Christianity allow two people from the same father to get married?




>
>>2. Which of the sons of Abraham (Ishmael or Isaac) was to be
>>offered as sacrifice according to the Christian faith?
>
>Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you
>love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a
>burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."
>Gen 22:2


Now that you've quoted the above verse, how is one to concile it with the verses that say that Isaac was not even born when the covenant was made and the males were circumsiced? How do you explain this (Read below)?

"And Abraham was ninety years old and nine when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son. And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him." Genesis 17: 24-27

- Abraham 99 years
- Ishmael 13 years
- Covenant and circumcision took place


If you read further at Genesis 21:4-5 you will see taht Isaac was born a year after the covenant was mady and aftert eh circumcision of the males of Abraham's household had taken place...

"And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him. And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him."

- Abraham 100 years
- Ishmael 14 years
- Isaac just born and was circumcised later when he reached 8 years old



Abraham was also told regarding Ishmael in Genesis 21:18...

"Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation."



Galatians actually goes against OT because God is said to have blessed Ishmael with twelve princes and bring forth a great nation...

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation." (Genesis 17:20.)

[Coach]

teejay,

>This is how. Abraham never married Hagar as a second wife but
>went in her and conceived a child after the advice of her wife
>Sarah. Do no justify polygamy because it is embedded within
>the pillars of the traditions of your religion. It is simply a
>ploy for men to carry out their lustrous ambitions. It is true
>Children must be loved like you say but then When Ishmael is
>sent away Isaac remains the only child in that sense why do
>you want make complicated yet it is simple reading that
>2(Ishmael & Isaac)-1(Ishmael)=1(Isaac)

Teejay my friend, I will teach you a bit about your own faith. Believe me, I don't say this with haughtiness. You said Abraham never married hagar as a second wife, well, the Bible says otehrwise...

"And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife." GENESIS 16:3

Polygamy is also common and mentionned a lot in the Bible and is not something peculiar only to Islam as you have assumed. I will show you many instances where great men mentionned in the Bible had more than one wife and the practise of polygamy was allowed and its rules were laid down...


- If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. EXODUS 21:10

- And David took him more concubines and wives out of Jerusalem, after he was come from Hebron: and there were yet sons and daughters born to David. 2 SAMUEL 5:13

- David had SIX wives and numerous concubines. 1 CHRONICLES 3:1-9

- If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons.... DEUTRONOMY 21:15



>You say it well that if a man has two wives, but Abraham had
>one wife Sarah the other woman (Hagar) is a servant and the
>bible clearly refers to her as so. She never became Abrahams’s
>wife.

Even though you feel uncomfortable with polygamy, the Bible does call Hagar a "WIFE", here...

"And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife." GENESIS 16:3


You might not like the idea but it is said in the Bible.



>You have very well quoted the book of Deuteronomy neatly.
>Remember this culture you are talking about in Deut several
>hundred years later and rules are erected to govern that
>society that applies to that period. These people had been in
>Egypt and had copied unisraelite habits. They do not apply in
>Abraham’s time. Reading further God is telling Abraham not to
>worry about Ishmael for he will bless him too, but he is not
>the one that he is going to make a covenant with.

As I told TM above, the Bible says that Abraham was 99 when the covenant was made and Ismhael was 13. It also says that Isaac was born to Abraham when he was 100 years old. Why are you avoiding these facts?




>Not at all Coach. I do believe that God created one woman for
>one man and the fact that men feel comfortable to pile the
>women behind them in polygamous settings does not make it
>right and will not. It lust that plays it victorious role in
>driving these unresisting creature to do so.

God did not make ONE WOMAN FOR ONE MAN as you claim because the NT, Matthew 22:23-32 tells us that a man should marry the widow of his brother. This surely goes against what you are propagating here teejay.


>You people baffle me. Do you mean to say that if it is written
>that teejay was married to many a woman in the scriptures then
>that licenses all persons to say it acceptable. These things
>are written so that we can learn from them. In them there are
>valuable lessons.

You are now saying something that contadicts the whole purpose of scripture. Holy men like Abraham, Moses, Jesus PBUT were exceptional men whose characters people should try to emulate. If you don't follow their actions, what then are you learning from teh scriptures? Please do tell me. If Abraham is good enough to have two wives, why isn't teejay?





"The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr" Prophet Muhammad PBUH

[Missy4]

Ishmael was not illegitimate. Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham when she became impatient and unwilling to wait for the fulfillment of the promise in God's timing. Ishmael was born first but the promise was to be fulfilled by the child of Abraham and Sarah so that is why Isaac is recognized in that way. God did not abandon Hagar and Ishmael. He sent the angel to help them when they were alone in the wilderness. Abraham got married again after Sarah died but the promise was to be fulfilled and carried by Isaac.

[teejay]

>Teejay my friend, I will teach you a bit about your own faith.
>Believe me, I don't say this with haughtiness. You said
>Abraham never married hagar as a second wife, well, the Bible
>says otehrwise...
>
>"And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian,
>after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and
>gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife." GENESIS 16:3

Thank you for attempting to teach me some faith Coach. This is what you should first know when you are reading the bible coach. That:

It was written thousands of years ago for and by people that lived in culture much different from our own. The writings however focus on principles that are universally true, therefore many of the historical accounts, illustrations they use and references they make can only be understood with some knowledge of the time and culture in which they lived. At this point it is worth noting that Man’s culture is not God’s culture and works. Abraham and his wife being in this category of man is therefore acting according to their culture when it comes to some issues.

Now according to ancient Jewish Marriage procedures or let me say traditions there were three ways in which marriage commenced.

1. With money (as when a man hands a woman an object of value, such as a ring or a coin, for the purpose of contracted marriage, and in the presence of two witnesses, and she actively accepts)
2. Through a shtar, (a contract containing the betrothal declaration phrased as "through this contract")
3. By sexual intercourse with the intention of creating a bond of marriage, a method strongly discouraged by the rabbinic sages, and I frown upon it upon it to. I think it is not immoral but indecent. Any woman in here can tell you that they distaste such animalistic arrangement.

It is the third type that we must concentrate on, A society sets out its tradition as it continues to evolve. The society in which Abraham lived was not any different they had with time adopted their own traditions among them matrimonial traditions. It must be noted that Man’s ways are not God’s ways.

Having seen that Abraham applied the third way of “marrying” we must therefore look at the reference to Hagar as wife (his) in that light and not as ordained by God. Thus even the bible refers to Hagar as wife in that dimension of the above ancient Jewish tradition.

Coach I hope you do understand now where am coming from when am saying that Hagar was not Abraham’s wife.

One may want to say that but they had a child, but I would say that even though a child is conceived out of wedlock it still belongs to the two sexual partners regardless of whether they cohabit, or live under any other arrangement. It the nature of the relationship that paints brightly or stains the brightness of the institution under which such child should begotten. Ishmael was tainted. Thus Illegitimate in that manner.

Another point I want to add it that in Gen 16.3 says that Sarah advised Abraham to Have Hagar so as to bear a child that she would regard as her own. By this time in earth’s history, polygamy had become so widespread that it had ceased to be regarded as a sin, but it was no less a violation of the law of God, and was fatal to the sacredness and peace of the family relation. Abraham's marriage with Hagar resulted in evil, not only to his own household, but to future generations. Going by the third Statement above Hagar became Abraham’s wife, but not according to God’s plan. Indeed we God reproving Hagar in the Desert when HE addressed her as "Hagar, Sarah’s maid," to remind her of her position and her duty, he bade her, to "Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands." In fact Hagar is referred to as Maidservant and not wife in the subsequent verses until her exit from the household of Abraham. In my opinion I would say that it is Both Sarah’s and Abraham’s distrust in divine promise that they made the error of Hagar’s marriage.

>Polygamy is also common and mentionned a lot in the Bible and
>is not something peculiar only to Islam as you have assumed. I
>will show you many instances where great men mentionned in the
>Bible had more than one wife and the practise of polygamy was
>allowed and its rules were laid down...

1. Know that being great a man does not make one great before the Lord.

2. Being a human being one is prone to temptation and polygamy is one of those temptations one greatness does not immunize them against the desires of the flesh.

3. The Fact that it is recorded in the bible that a great man practiced polygamy does not mean that God was in favour of that act. If fact reading those stories very keenly you will discover that many a times such polygamous arrangements come with a myriad of problems. A good example is Solomon one of the wisest men the earth has ever known. His continuous marriage even unto foreign women led him to deviate from observing God’s commands.

4. Coach does it mean that when a great man is headed in the ditch you do also abide by his path simply because he is great.

>- If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her
>duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. EXODUS 21:10

Of course this was a remedy for Moses granted the Lustful Jewish mean just like he later allowed them divorce certificates at the time. Once again may I emphasis that you should try and find out under what circumstances some directives were issued out. Otherwise you are always in danger of misquoting

>Even though you feel uncomfortable with polygamy, the Bible
>does call Hagar a "WIFE", here...

According to me what Abraham did was just responding to his wife and thus had sexual relations with another woman with a purpose of having a child. Any society in this world looks at such arrangement (devoid of marriage celebrations and rituals, be it traditional or Modern) with nywandwad eyes. Once again may repetitively direct you to begin with my starting paragraph above.

>God did not make ONE WOMAN FOR ONE MAN as you claim because
>the NT, Matthew 22:23-32 tells us that a man should marry the
>widow of his brother. This surely goes against what you are
>propagating here teejay.

First of all you me answer you the way Christ answered that same lie. Ye doe err cause ye know not the scripture nor what they say for you read copy and paste to justify they cause and for that you miss the point by a universe.

The Bible is not the Koran therefore read it not the way you cram the Koran while visualizing it on the palm of your hands.

>You are now saying something that contadicts the whole purpose
>of scripture. Holy men like Abraham, Moses, Jesus PBUT were
>exceptional men whose characters people should try to emulate.
>If you don't follow their actions, what then are you learning
>from teh scriptures? Please do tell me. If Abraham is good
>enough to have two wives, why isn't teejay?

When emulating these people you mention here one should not that it because of their faith in God that they were counted worthy of great works. Abraham, Moses were human beings and when tempted at times fell prey to the temptations. Nevertheless there were good things about these, but I can assure that polygamy and sexual perversion are non of those Good lessons that we can learn form the great men.

I know you have a desire to teach me about my faith. Well you have mad s step in the right direction but you still need to know a few things. First Christianity is not tackled by carnal wisdom. Secondly we Christians mature in faithful Christians by continuously reading and studying the bible and praying. This involves various stages

1. Milk stage(a person being feed and given useful tips)
2. Born stage (mature stage where you are ready to grasp and tackle most things as you mature more)

You my friend are far from achieving this despite your cramming of the bible