[mwananchi_]

.......

[chotadipo]

Reading through the debates about free-will I have come to narrow the divide into exactly two points of view

Believers - They state that Gods' state is incomprhensible to man however much we try and reason. So using reason as a justification for Gods' actions is fruitless because anyway God is this mysterious being that only faith can explain all that he does.

Others - They state that since God or his lack thereof has to make sense in our lives, there has to be a rational to everything even though we may not be in a position to comprehend it all. This rationalisation is the one that leads us to the state of us being us with respect to our surroundings.

One thing that is certain is that you cannot defend faith. It is an assured defeat trying to convince anyone using logic that a belief in something (read bible, Koran, etc) is enough. Debunking any assertion in the bible Koran, etc is easy and winning such an argument is a given. My point to believrs would be that since they claim God is un-understandable, there is no way then you can justify anything he does through reasoning.

[KEMINOKANA]

>Faith should not be devoid of reason.

Milanya, this is where we part. You are a christian and believe in God's existence(have faith). Could you please explain to me where God came from? The moment you answer that, u'll realize that the above statement doesnt make sense. In other words, I dont expect you to come with a provable formula on how God came to being. Thus, your faith in Him is actually devoid of reason. Which brings me to this passage Mwananchi posted.

"One thing that is certain is that you cannot defend faith. It is an assured defeat trying to convince anyone using logic that a belief in something (read bible, Koran, etc) is enough. Debunking any assertion in the bible Koran, etc is easy and winning such an argument is a given. My point to believrs would be that since they claim God is un-understandable, there is no way then you can justify anything he does through reasoning".

Secondly, there are pagans that have yet to hear the word of God and willing to listen. Those ones are the ones the bible says "He shall not come back until his word has reached all corners of the world". There are also pagans e.g Atlian, Safina and etc who have heard the word but rejected it and have chosen to campaign against the word. These people you cant do much about them. The bible says let those with ears hear and those with eyes see. The road to heaven is a narrow way so dont worry so much that there are pagans who will reject the word.

[reggie_woic]

Christians have a mechanism to deal with things that are ordinarily considered mysteries or unexplainable.

Like Chotadipo puts it, it is called Faith.

Either you have it or you don't.

By the time we get satisfied answers to all these mysteries, its going to be time for us to die and face judgement* (according to faith).

Lets just say i'd rather not be caught doubting, lol.

[milanya]

>>Faith should not be devoid of reason.
>
>Milanya, this is where we part. You are a christian and
>believe in God's existence(have faith). Could you please
>explain to me where God came from? The moment you answer that,
>u'll realize that the above statement doesnt make sense. In
>other words, I dont expect you to come with a provable formula
>on how God came to being. Thus, your faith in Him is actually
>devoid of reason. Which brings me to this passage Mwananchi
>posted.
>

Keminokana, do you want to tell me that you have no basis for your faith at all? That you do not have reason behind why you believe? That you just woke up one morning and decided to be Christian? If so, then why aren't you a Muslim, a Hindu, a Jew or a a Bahai? If I have faith that the man I marry is responsible - where do I base this? I look at the facts, and then trust my instincts. Is he responsible during courtship, yes. If...then. this is not foolproof or quantifiable, just like relgion.

Same thing with my faith. Do I believe there is a God, yes I do. Can I prove it? Not necessarily, but I can reason that:
1. The world cannot be an infinite series of uncaused causes
2. There must be a perfect being
3. There must be a mind greater than my own to have conceived this world
4. There must be a prime mover of all things
5. There a lot of contingent things, so there must be a necessary being that keeps this order

And that being I believe is God. When it comes to Jesus, can I prove he resurrected? Nope. But can I look at history and argue various theories until I am sufficiently satisfied enough to make that leap between fact and supernatural? yes.

Maybe I explained myself wrong. I should've said that there should be some reason at least an itsy bit of reason behind religion and not faith.My bad. The rest is a leap, a trust without proof.

And as for your assertion that faith cannot be defended by logic that is not entirely true. Have you ever studied the works of Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, Aristotle and C.S Lewis. I love reading their works because they try and argue their faith based on reason and logic. Try reading C.S Lewis' 'Mere Christianity', Read Summa Theologiae and the Confessions.

[chotadipo]

>And as for your assertion that faith cannot be defended by
>logic that is not entirely true. Have you ever studied the
>works of Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, Aristotle and C.S Lewis. I
>love reading their works because they try and argue their
>faith based on reason and logic. Try reading C.S Lewis' 'Mere
>Christianity', Read Summa Theologiae and the Confessions.
>
Milanya,

Point noted. Will refresh and expand my knowledge.