[satjas]

Hey Coach

> But unfortunately some people resort to
>intellectual dishonesty when they have an agenda; sajtas and
>TM are good examples of this.


please don't be silly coach. I have no problem if a 18 yr old screwed a 13 yr old cos they would technically , in those days, be compatible. Most young men married young girls. That is fine. Even a 20 yr old with a 10 yr old girl i would consider...with some explanation. But a 52 year old mzee sleeping with a 9 year old ayeesha begs some serious questions......you mean there were no more much older widows he could have taken on board????? If the kooran is for all times as has been suggested by mbajuni in another post on hijabs, then it also stands true that it is ok by muslims to marry a 9 year old when the men are like 52.

Coach i have no problem if you wanna hang out with a 9 yr old, just be bold enough to say you see no problem with a 52 year old marrying a 9 yr old. Tell us that you could also do it if the laws allowed. However if you have any doubt, ANY single doubt that you would do that then also admit that you find it absurd.

The balls in your court Coach, would you marry a 9 yr old Mbajuni?

And Mbajuni, at 9 yrs old would you be comfortable being screwed by a 52 yr old Coach?
But then i guess you wouldn't know as you'd be busy playing with your dolls......and him with the balls.

-the paradigm shifter......God's friend.

[Mbajuni]

If the kooran is for all
>times as has been suggested by mbajuni in another post on
>hijabs, then it also stands true that it is ok by muslims to
>marry a 9 year old when the men are like 52.

Your point here would be correct if Allah said you MUST marry a 9 year old in the Quran but He didn't...so please don't try and apply my comment on an Islamic rule to support your points about an Islamic historical tale/story that was told by men! The LAWS Quran (Spelled Q-U-R-A-N) apply for all times as with the "hijab" for the point in my otehr post. But the story of the prophets wife is not a LAW...The story of Ayeesha is not even in the Quran for your information. So wacha trying to make a house out of air.

[satjas]

Hey mbajuni

>Your point here would be correct if Allah said you MUST marry
>a 9 year old in the Quran but He didn't...so please don't try
>and apply my comment on an Islamic rule to support your points
>about an Islamic historical tale/story that was told by men!

and the great allah also did not say he Must not too!!!!!.......does that not mean that allah saw nothing wrong with what MooHamMad did??? and so don't you cos you don't have the guts to admit it is wrong.....i ask you again, if you had a daughter of 9yrs would you let a Coach of 52 go to bed with her??? It's a simple question, why can't you answer it? Because if you agree with me then you'll be going against your religion (blasphemy) and if you do not agree with me your conscience cannot allow you to ponder rationally about this absurdity.....so you hide under the cloak of your leaders so called perfection.

and guess what, all...ALL religions have been made by Man, hardly a women has experienced 'God'. Doesn't this God like talking to women????


>The LAWS Quran (Spelled Q-U-R-A-N) apply for all times as with
>the "hijab" for the point in my otehr post. But the story of
>the prophets wife is not a LAW...The story of Ayeesha is not
>even in the Quran for your information. So wacha trying to
>make a house out of air.

Ok so the kooran (have you got a problem with the way i spell it?) isn't saying it.Are you now saying that because it's not in the kooran that the hadiths and sahihs are not to be relied on??

tell us this is not true......read on

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Some Muslims claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is of course not true and here is the proof.

Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."




-the paradigm shifter.....God's friend.

[Coach]

sajtas,
Stop running around with this issue like a beheaded chicken! Go back to the thread I intiated if you want to discuss this issue and read through what I posted and we can take it on from there. Bringing this issue in every other topic makes you look very inconsistant and immensely depserate. Here is the topic if you feel like digging your claws on the issue, bring forth whatever you want to add to it...

http://www.mashada.com/forums/index/...9255/index.php

Mbajuni,
Don't bother with his rants here, this topic was initiated by ATLian adressing the issue of Mary's age and as we can see it is already derailed. Use the link above and discuss with sajtas there, that is if he doesn't slip away and bring up this issue again six months later in another thread.

[Coach]

Mbajuni,
Read sajtas' reply in that thread, it will show you how he conducts such discussions and how he reasons (he's often out to mock, not discuss) when the issue is adressed at depth in a serious manner.

[satjas]

hey Coach,


> Bringing this issue in every other topic makes you
>look very inconsistant and immensely depserate.

I do not have in any way for you Coach, In fact i have no problem even looking like a fool....I'd rather look like than follow a foolish belief. I am desperate to be human and not a blind religious bigot.



>Mbajuni,
>Don't bother with his rants here, this topic was initiated by
>ATLian adressing the issue of Mary's age and as we can see it
>is already derailed. Use the link above and discuss with
>sajtas there, that is if he doesn't slip away and bring up
>this issue again six months later in another thread.


And You know why Coach? I'll ask again.....it's a simple yes or no answer.....Would you Coach when you turn 52 find it OK to sleep with a 9 yr old?

-the paradigm shifter.........God's friend who doesn't condone sleeping with kids!!!!!


The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[Mbajuni]

>Mbajuni,
>Read sajtas' reply in that thread, it will show you how he
>conducts such discussions and how he reasons (he's often out
>to mock, not discuss) when the issue is adressed at depth in a
>serious manner.

Thanks for the warning coach. No worries...I don't believe in arguing over ignorance. I did notice that Satjas comments are based on assumptions on what I think. However, I will not post in on the other board because I think this a fruitless and pointless argument and don't wat to start another pot boiling. Instead I would like to state my own personal stance here and clarify this "round the circle" discussion in this board and hopefully never have to return and witness such ignorance.

I believe the hadith about the prophet.
I believe the Quran.

But my point was that, just because Allah does not say something against an act in the Quran, it does not mean he is saying you MUST do it. GET THE DIFFFERENCE????? Passiveness is NOT equal to ADVOCATING...Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh!!!
That my dear satjas is what I was saying.

However, I was not saying that I think the prophet was wrong either. NO...As a matter of fact I have nothing wrong with that act on the basis that it happened hundred of years ago when everyone did that and it was the norm. Pedophilia is a term that only came about when western definitions of psychopathology. If the Prophet lived in today’s world then perhaps it would be a totally different situation.

Pedophilia is a mental disorder. I actually talked to a prof about this just last week when talking about sexually deviant behaviour. In Psychology, Pedophilia is diagnosed only based on cultural contexts and what is the norm. If it is norm in society, then it is not considered pedophilia. So just by definition itself, the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was not a pedophile. The same thing to bulimia nervosa. If there hypothetically was a society out there where 99% of the girls poked fingers in their tongues to throw up after eating so that they would be thin, then it is not considered a mental disorder since "statistical" rarity is one of the qualifiers for a mental disorder.

In the 15th/16th century where women didn't go to school/didn't get jobs etc then even I would personally find it normal if one got married at that age...kweni I would have hit puberty, I can get pregnant and the norms in that society then, the only role left for me is to get married and be a mother. However, today I and many of us are blessed with education and know better if someone did the same thing. Today I would be appalled and angry if a 52 yr old married a 9 year old, but at the same time, I would not call him a pedophile or pervert. Calling one a pedophile based on MY construct of womanhood is like calling one who comes from another culture mentally retarded based on my notion of intelligence through the IQ.

According to the layman's rather than medical definition, a pedophile is "an adult who is sexually attracted to children". Even in the west today we can't decide the defnition for girl/woman. Some say up to 16, others 14 etc. So if we can't draw a line today when we are in the same era, how can we draw that thin line to others in a totally different era and culture?? To some cultures young girls of 9/10 are considered as to be women after initiation in...then how can we penalize them for that based on our own definitions??

In countries such as Kenya where in some places isolated from the wider society such as Northern Marsabit where it is norm for girls to get married at 9/10/11 I wouldn't call them pedophiles either...I would just say that their culture is not educated on western definitions of womanhood. Kweni if I were to call them pedophiles the that means 99% of Africans before colonization were pedophiles too i.e. your great great great great great great great... grandfather or mine were perverts too. But to THEM they are not attracted to a child but a woman. To THEM pedophilia would be if the girl was 6/7. If one is educated on this concept today, knows of the broader definition of child/woman, lives in 'modern' society and STILL chooses to marry a 9/10 yr old girl...THEN they are a pedophile.

Basically my point is that culture varies and changes over time and geography as do definitions such as intelligence, mentally retarded, woman/girl etc Based on defitions of intelligence TODAY do you know that over 50% of the population from the 19th century would be considered mentally retarded?? So it is stupid for you to argue about who was a pedophile then, back in the day, whensoever, based on a definition that has not only dynamically changed in the past decade but were also created post-western civilization. Satjas, that is just biased, misinformed, one-sided, indiscriminate, insensible, plain ignorant hogwash. And that is why I think arguing if Joseph or the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) were pedophiles is pointless!!

[TeamManager]

@Coach

Our grandmothers had already reach PUBERTY before they got married ..... so lets speak for ourself

>But unfortunately some people resort to intellectual dishonesty
>when they have an agenda; sajtas and TM are good examples of this.

The following is interesting because it demonstrates that she was just a KID PLAYING WITH HER DOLLS. Pay attention to what the interpreter wrote in the parenthesis. (She was a little girl, NOT YET reached the AGE OF PUBERTY)


Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)


Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.


http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

[satjas]

Hey Mbajuni

>Thanks for the warning coach. No worries...I don't believe in
>arguing over ignorance. I did notice that Satjas comments are
>based on assumptions on what I think.

ditto Mbajuni.......just because I do not publicise what i do does not make me ignorant. It is common practise to conclude a writer is ignorant especially when one does not agree with the other. Forget about me, just read the content.

> However, I will not post
>in on the other board because I think this a fruitless and
>pointless argument and don't wat to start another pot boiling.

Very good, because you already have too mant pots boiling and left unattended. It will only be fruitless if you choose it to be.

>Instead I would like to state my own personal stance here and
>clarify this "round the circle" discussion in this board and
>hopefully never have to return and witness such ignorance.

If you read what you said above about 'assumptions' then like you've said here, I also state my own personal stance. And ofcourse i am ignorant and you are clever....but please educate me.


>I believe the hadith about the prophet.
>I believe the Quran.

Me too, and that's why i think it cannot have been written by allah, or perhaps allah and MooHamMad are the same personality. 'I believe the kooran' does not mean anything.....its like ' i believe the santa clause'....duuuuuhhhhhhh!!!!!!

>But my point was that, just because Allah does not say
>something against an act in the Quran, it does not mean he is
>saying you MUST do it.

how convinient for allah to turn a blind eye when the 52 yr old is sleeping with the 9 yr old ayesha.

>GET THE DIFFFERENCE????? Passiveness is
>NOT equal to ADVOCATING...Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh!!!
>That my dear satjas is what I was saying.

and that is why evil grows when good men and women do/say nothing. For any sensible person, passiveness is as good as accepting.


>However, I was not saying that I think the prophet was wrong
>either. NO...As a matter of fact I have nothing wrong with
>that act on the basis that it happened hundred of years ago
>when everyone did that and it was the norm.

and thats where i am saying we should leave that ideology....back in hundreds of years since we cannot apply it in this day and age.......your words above not mine!!!Duuuuhhhh!!


> Pedophilia is a
>term that only came about when western definitions of
>psychopathology. If the Prophet lived in today’s world then
>perhaps it would be a totally different situation.

>Pedophilia is a mental disorder.

I have looked at those two statements above and you say pedophilia is a mental disorder, and then you say that that term only came about after the west mentioned it.....are you saying it never existed before? The fact that we have not discovered many things in life does not mean the do not exist.....we simply have not found names for them. Any rational man, regardless of the aspect of time will find it almost a task to stick their penis in a small girl.........small things are designed to take small stuff not humongous penises. And that is why it is a mental disorder.....your words, not mine duuuhhhhhhh!!!!

>I actually talked to a prof
>about this just last week when talking about sexually deviant
>behaviour. In Psychology, Pedophilia is diagnosed only based
>on cultural contexts and what is the norm. If it is norm in
>society, then it is not considered pedophilia. So just by
>definition itself, the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was not a
>pedophile.

Go on suit yourself if it makes you feel good............in this day and age when people are being killed left right and center by suicide bombers, let's not call them that since it is the norm......so by definition suicide bombers are not suicide bombers.....Get a grip girl!! Duuuuhhhhh!! i am quite getting used to this duuuuhhhhh!! thanks to you.

>The same thing to bulimia nervosa. If there
>hypothetically was a society out there where 99% of the girls
>poked fingers in their tongues to throw up after eating so
>that they would be thin, then it is not considered a mental
>disorder since "statistical" rarity is one of the qualifiers
>for a mental disorder.

hmmm....pedophilia, bulimia nervosa? they don't rank in the same category now do they??

>In the 15th/16th century where women didn't go to
>school/didn't get jobs etc then even I would personally find
>it normal if one got married at that age...kweni I would have
>hit puberty, I can get pregnant and the norms in that society
>then, the only role left for me is to get married and be a
>mother.

Ok you know what some tribes are still living in that century, go to the north of kenya, papua new guinea , the congo. Even these people know that very old men should not sleep with a nine yr old. Mbajuni, i have no problem if MooHamMad took ayesha as a wife for the sake of abu bakr even if she was only 6 at the time but please don't sleep with her Old Man???!!! duuuuuhhh!!!!

> However, today I and many of us are blessed with
>education and know better if someone did the same thing. Today
>I would be appalled and angry if a 52 yr old married a 9 year
>old, but at the same time, I would not call him a pedophile or
>pervert.

And that is why Islam is a great religion for you can do anything and not be guilty of it. Girl, call a spade a spade. Ofcourse you would not call him a pervert because he could turn round to you and say ' but the prohet did it' and you would have nothing to say. That is why it suits you to be angry and yet do nothing about it. It's a pity they don't teach some stuff to psychologists.

>Calling one a pedophile based on MY construct of
>womanhood is like calling one who comes from another culture
>mentally retarded based on my notion of intelligence through
>the IQ.

hey hey hey.....do you wanna break that down a little bit more for clarity's sake? what is your construct of womanhood???

>According to the layman's rather than medical definition, a
>pedophile is "an adult who is sexually attracted to children".
>Even in the west today we can't decide the defnition for
>girl/woman. Some say up to 16, others 14 etc. So if we can't
>draw a line today when we are in the same era, how can we draw
>that thin line to others in a totally different era and
>culture??

It doesn't matter......let us also at the same time consider an age for men too, shall we say 18? I know it's on the higher side but it will do. Then let's say when the girl matures...even at your modest attempt of 9/10 yrs (as below) Then that makes a difference of 9 yrs. The world can accept that. 9 yrs? not bad! but 40+ yrs??????????? c'mon! DUUUUUHHHHHH!!!!

>To some cultures young girls of 9/10 are considered
>as to be women after initiation in...then how can we penalize
>them for that based on our own definitions??

like i said choose any figure for the men too and consider them compatible.

>In countries such as Kenya where in some places isolated from
>the wider society such as Northern Marsabit where it is norm
>for girls to get married at 9/10/11 I wouldn't call them
>pedophiles either...I would just say that their culture is not
>educated on western definitions of womanhood.

Ooops! didn't realize you had mentioned this.......umm, you wouldn't call them stupid though now would you Mbajuni????

>Kweni if I were
>to call them pedophiles the that means 99% of Africans before
>colonization were pedophiles too i.e. your great great great
>great great great great... grandfather or mine were perverts
>too.

hey speak for your not mine.......i can follow my lineage way back than that and NONE of them were perverts None of them at the age of 52 slept with a 9 yr old

> But to THEM they are not attracted to a child but a
>woman. To THEM pedophilia would be if the girl was 6/7. If one
>is educated on this concept today, knows of the broader
>definition of child/woman, lives in 'modern' society and STILL
>chooses to marry a 9/10 yr old girl...THEN they are a
>pedophile.

Are you now using that concept here??? A few words ago you said you couldn't call the guys from Up north pedophiles.......oh yeah, those guys are not educated or modern right? Mbajuni, i have told you before i am in that group of uneducated 'un modern people' to coin a phrase. Please do not patronise us like this!!!!!!


>Basically my point is that culture varies and changes over
>time and geography as do definitions such as intelligence,
>mentally retarded, woman/girl etc Based on defitions of
>intelligence TODAY do you know that over 50% of the population
>from the 19th century would be considered mentally retarded??

could you also provide us with statistics for the 7th century???? In the same way, religions should also vary and change, old customs and barbaric ways trashed.

>So it is stupid for you to argue about who was a pedophile
>then, back in the day, whensoever, based on a definition that
>has not only dynamically changed in the past decade but were
>also created post-western civilization.

when exactly did 'post-western civilisation' start??? Or perhaps should i ask- based on your modern educated definition, would you in this century consider MooHamMad a pedophile if he slept with ayesha today??????

>Satjas, that is just
>biased, misinformed, one-sided, indiscriminate, insensible,
>plain ignorant hogwash. And that is why I think arguing if
>Joseph or the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) were pedophiles is
>pointless!!

It can be all that you said if you want it to be, the choice is yours. When one is so immersed in shyte like the bluefly is then even a pot of honey next to is considered poison, the bluefly will never abandon the shyte. You will continously say that i am misinformed, insensible and ignorant. You have that freedom. And so is mine, to speak the truth, rationally, plainly and consistently.

Any choosen leader (or self appointed as in your case) has to have credentials which will be scrutinized even beyond the grave. It is only fair and just to the followers of their ideologies to know that they were/are not duped, especially because they have blind unquestionable faith.

-the paradigm shifter......God's friend.

[Coach]

sajtas,

>And You know why Coach? I'll ask again.....it's a simple yes
>or no answer.....Would you Coach when you turn 52 find it OK
>to sleep with a 9 yr old?


Every people go according to their time and the present cultural norms, one adapts to their environnent. In around the 10th Century upto the 15th Century, people were doctors and university professors before they were 20 years old. Is that common where I live now and is it even feasible? NO! In 7th Century Arabia and the ME inc Philistine, girls were married when they reach puberty. In the same region today, the norms have changed and girls a married much later than that. The norms have changed and people adapt. Your asking me whether I would marry a 9 year olf girl when I'm 52 is dependant on the norms of the culture I live in, what is right and wrong is determined by Divine Law and ALSO the culture of the place on is living.

Judging Samburu people according to the western cultural norms today is ignorant, and so is judging someone who lived in the 7th Century according to the norms that prevail today.

TM,
Fact:

- In 7th Century Arabia and most cultures around the world, a girl becomes a woman when she hits Puberty. She can then become pregnant and therefore has entered womanhood in the biological sense of the word.

- Aisha moved in with the Prophet after she hit puberty, which means she was considered "ready for marriage" according to the prevailing norms.

So what is your argument mzee? Are you ignorantly claiming taht she moved in with the Prophet before puberty? Are you ignoring these facts just as sajtas is just to push your agenda through?