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Default RE: A prayer for tm - 03-15-2006, 04:09 PM

How do you explain the growing body of christ? Prayer plays a major role in that and actually i'm praying for you right now. Be blessed.
 
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Default RE: A prayer for tm - 03-15-2006, 07:45 PM

One of my many beefs with prayer is - Why should god have to wait for us to ask him before he does something about a dire situation? Shouldn't an all-good god do something without us having to ask him? Especialy since he's an all-knowing god, so he knew from Day One about the thing that is going to be prayed for? Why should god watch, say, Darfur go through major genocide, then wait for us to pray, before doing something about it?

I think prayer is pointless. Assume my dad is sick with cancer. If it's in god's plan for him to die, then he will die, no matter how much I pray. If it's in god's plan for him to live, then he will live, even if I don't utter a single word of prayer. Basically, whatever god had planned from Day One will happen, regardless of whether you pray or not. So why bother with prayer?

Also, if the plan is for your dad to die, then it's a perfect plan, since it's all part of god's perfect plan for everyone. Prayer is asking god to change certain circumstances of his perfect plan so that they (the circumstances) become compliant with your wishes. You are telling god that HIS perfect plan for your dad to die of cancer isn't as good as your plan where your dad survives the cancer, so could he please change it so it can be in line with yours. Isn't that blasphemeous, a mere mortal man challenging god's ultimate plan? Isn't it arrogant?
 
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Default RE: A prayer for tm - 03-16-2006, 04:11 AM

hey ATLian,

well said my friend. An all knowing God expects us to do nothing except simply be ourselves. We ought not to be subservient and yet highly expectant. As a matter of fact may i point out that at a molecular level we are all made up of the same stuff, hence we are all........collectively........and individually .......God. Blasphemy, they'll scream!!! I say this not in ego but in humility with utter understanding of the concept of the purpose of our creation.

-the paradigm shifter......God's friend.
 
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Default RE: A prayer for tm - 03-16-2006, 04:19 AM

Hey Arsenal

Jesus is Lord, jesus is lord, jesus is lord jesus is lord, jesus is lord, jesus is lord, lesus is jord lesus is jord, lesus is jord, jesis us lord jesis us lord, jesus is lord jesus is lord jesus is lord jesus is lord, Amen, jesus is lord jesus is lord, everyone is saved, no sin exists, jesus is lord. we are all lord.

-the paradigm shifter......God's friend.

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.
 
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Default RE: A prayer for tm - 03-17-2006, 11:05 AM

ATLian,
This would be the case for those who believe in pre-destination. You cannot just sit back and wait for what God has "written" for you as humans have free-will and that is why you are held responsible for your actions. What is hapenning today in many areas of the world need not happen if humans were more generous and less violent. Today people are starving in many parts of E Africa while others live luxuriously. There is abundance of food in western Kenya but children are dying of hunger and malnutrition in N Eastern Kenya. Why do you blame God when humans are unwilling to help each other? There is misery in Iraq too, it was the most developed Arab country with the the highest literacy rates, lowest child mortality rates, and most secular of nations in the Middle east. The invasion by the USA and GB caused a lot of death, carnage and a lot of unnecessary suffering to millions. Are you blaming God for this too or the invaders and insurgents that kill innocent human beings?




> As a matter of fact may
>i point out that at a molecular level we are all made up of
>the same stuff, hence we are
>all........collectively........and individually .......God.
>Blasphemy, they'll scream!!! I say this not in ego but in
>humility with utter understanding of the concept of the
>purpose of our creation.


sajtas,
One can scientifically prove what man is made of but how do you know that God is made of the same substances? Your case is more guesswork than it is blasphemous.
 
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Default RE: A prayer for tm - 03-18-2006, 06:17 AM

hey atlian,
i'm praying for you but i think u keep on repeating the same things all over. I once couldn't believe in God and kept on questioning God. The moment you dedicate your life to God, all the things that look weird will start making sense. Just trust God. Being you, have you ever questioned where you came from? dont tell me about evolution. Read your bible and pray to God. I know there isnt much i can do cuz i blame the world for hardening your heart but God's ways are mysterious. That moment will hit u like ?????.
 
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Default RE: A prayer for tm - 03-19-2006, 03:43 PM

Hey Coach,

>One can scientifically prove what man is made of

Good, at last, thought you'd never get to tell us what and/or how we can prove that ,since you come from a scientific back ground. Pray tell us what is man made out of? Is it the same stuff that tables and chairs are made out of? Isn't it from the matter in the soil?In the air? Is it any different from anything else? Let's not even get to the part where we say....but humans can think, have choice.........just tell us what difference the stuff we are made of is any different from......from a non-living thing????

>but how do
>you know that God is made of the same substances? Your case is
>more guesswork than it is blasphemous.

I'll tackle this part when you have understood the first bit.

-the paradigm shifter......God's friend.

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.
 
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Default RE: A prayer for tm - 03-20-2006, 01:52 PM

>Hey Coach,
>
>>One can scientifically prove what man is made of
>
>Good, at last, thought you'd never get to tell us what and/or
>how we can prove that ,since you come from a scientific back
>ground. Pray tell us what is man made out of? Is it the same
>stuff that tables and chairs are made out of? Isn't it from
>the matter in the soil?In the air? Is it any different from
>anything else? Let's not even get to the part where we
>say....but humans can think, have choice.........just tell us
>what difference the stuff we are made of is any different
>from......from a non-living thing????




Your Lord said to the angels, "I am going to create a human being out of clay. When I have formed him and breathed My Spirit into him, fall down in prostration to him!" (Qur'an, 38:71-72)

When the human body is examined today, it may be discovered that many elements present on the earth are also to be found in the body. Living tissues contain 95% carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus and sulphur, with a total of 26 different elements. In another verse of the Qur'an we are told:

"We created man from an extract of clay." (Qur'an, 23:12)

Man comprises of...


MACRO-MINERALS
Oxygen
Carbon
Hydrogen
Nitrogen
Calcium
Phosphorus
Potassium
Sulfur
Chlorine
Sodium
Magnesium
Silicon


MICRO-MINERALS
Iron
Zinc
Copper
Boron
Cobalt
Vanadium
Iodine
Selenium
Manganese
Molybdenum
Chromium


Illuminate yourself further at: http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_o...an_p1_08.php#1






>>but how do
>>you know that God is made of the same substances? Your case
>is
>>more guesswork than it is blasphemous.
>
>I'll tackle this part when you have understood the first bit.


Well tacke it! With facts please, not guesswork, speculation or unproven theories.
 
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Default RE: A prayer for tm - 03-20-2006, 04:26 PM

Hey Coach,


>Illuminate yourself further at:
>http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_o...an_p1_08.php#1

hey this guy doesn't know his micro from his macro.....but so what it was a spelling error!!
Coach please do not try and sell this story of the miracles cos as far as i am concerned God is limitless in Her doings. Even that which makes no sense to you has an order to it.
Get over it...i need no convincing. I do not believe in miracles.....miracles are for those who need reinforcement in their belief. For me every thing around me is a 'miracle' , the mere fact that i can communicate with you is a miracle, everything and anything is a miracle to me.......i do not need to be impressed by some scientific gobbledegook to know a miracle.
Anyone who understands God will know that miracles do not exist.....anybody can do it, one just has to know how. And i'll tell you one more thing, the bible and the kooran will not tell you how......it is not in the interest of religion to give people back the power they so deserve, something that is rightfully theirs.


>Well tacke it! With facts please, not guesswork, speculation
>or unproven theories.

Ok I will, let's not hurry here......so these elements that exist in man, can they also be in the soil, the mud? Yes, you answered that. Does it mean there are no more elements than the ones you mentioned? Ofcourse there are......but perhaps our bodies have no requirement for them? But let us look at the elements you listed Coach. Are they different from each other? No, break them down to simple parts ( and No, don't go too deep into nano nano bits) let's stick to the protons, electrons and neutrons.......are they any different from each other in All the elements?

Lets give it a break here, don't wanna clog your time up or speculate or guess.....absorb this slowly.....and then we'll see the real miracle!!!!!!

-the paradigm shifter.....God's little miracle and friend.

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.
 
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Default RE: A prayer for tm - 03-21-2006, 01:52 AM

googled and got some interssting information



4. Qur'an reveals Embryological facts !


[AL-MUMENOON 23: 12-14] Verily We created man from a product of wet earth; Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging; Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!

Some Islamic scholars find the embryological facts in above verse. But if we check the verse from a rational point of view, it appears to us with a different meaning. Let's check the above verse critically. First line is totally wrong. Man is not a product of any wet earth. Moreover, Qurfan ambiguously asserts many common sensually meaningless statements about such an elementary matter in other verses. For examples sometimes it tells that we are created from earth (11:61), sometimes it claims from dry clay (15:26,28,33, 17:61, 32:7), sometimes "from nothing" (19:67), sometimes "NOT from nothing" (52:35), sometimes from wet earth (23:12), or from mire (38:71), sometimes from water (25:54, 21:30, 24:45), sometimes from dust ( 3:59, 30:20, 35:11) or even sometimes from dead (30:19, 39:6). So which one is true? Those contradictory ambiguous statements actually do not reveal any scientific facts regarding either how we created or what exactly we are made of.

Before analyzing rest of the portion of the above verse, I would like to cite an useful information to the readers. In 1982 Keith Moore, an anatomy professor at the University of Toronto, produced a textbook titled "The Developing Human, 3rd edition". Relating embryological facts with Qurfanic verse wishfully in Muslim community mainly started thereafter. In his book Moore states astonishment at the way embryonic development is depicted in the Qur'an. Moore took Yusuf Ali's translation of the verse under discussion which directly uses the word gspermh [8]:

023.013
YUSUFALI: Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;
PICKTHAL: Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging;
SHAKIR: Then We made him a small seed in a firm resting-place,

023.014
YUSUFALI: Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!
PICKTHAL: Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!
SHAKIR: Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators.

Many people may amaze by the mention of sperm in this verse. But close observation reveals that there is nothing supernatural in it. Since the beginning of time man has been quite aware of the "seed" that is released from the penis during sexual intercourse. The old Hindu scriptures or Bible, which are much older than the Qur'an, also have such indication. Aristotle clearly described about formation of a child inside the womb early 1,000 years before the Qur'an was written. No body claimed any miracles for it. In fact Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, something not mentioned in the Qur'an, showing that earlier philosophers were aware of such things mentioned by Muhammad and more [8].

Actually the Qur'an contains erroneous ancient theories developed by Roman and Greek philosophers about human development . Let us consider the following verse referring to sperm:

He is created from a drop emitted- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs: (sura At-Tariq 86:6-7)

Clearly this verse is incorrect, and clearly it has origins in earlier theories. First of all, for sperm to originate between the back and the ribs would mean that it comes from the kidneys! Greek physician Hippocrates theorized this wrong idea long before Muhammad that sperm passed through the kidneys into the penis. For centuries this was an accepted (and incorrect) belief of the origins of sperm. Aristotle though correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, also amusingly believed that sperm testicles functioned as weights to keep the seminal passages open during sexual intercourse [20]. One can easily find similar erroneous concepts in the Qur'an too.

Let us focus on another scenario by considering the following sura from Qurfan:

O mankind! if ye are in doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo! We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot, then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make (it) clear for you. And We cause what We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed time, and afterward We bring you forth as infants, then (give you growth) that ye attain your full strength. And among you there is he who dieth (young), and among you there is he who is brought back to the most abject time of life, so that, after knowledge, he knoweth naught. And thou (Muhammad) seest the earth barren, but when We send down water thereon, it doth thrill and swell and put forth every lovely kind (of growth) (Sura Al-Hajj 022.005).

The verse mentions three primary stages of embryonic development: (1) a gseed,h gdroph or gsemenh phase (in Arabic, gnutfahh), (2) followed by a gcloth or gleach-like cloth phase (in Arabic, gAlaqahh), (3) followed finally by a gmorsel of fleshh or gchewed lumph phase (in Arabic, gMudghahh). Some other additional suras can also be cited that deal with this subject, and none seems to disagree with this basic scenario. Again the hadiths, particularly that of Bukhari and Muslim give some relevant information. For e.g, following hadith tells us about developmental timing of an embryo.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 430:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mus'ud:

gAllah's Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, "(The matter of the Creation of) a human being is put together in the womb of the mother in forty days, and then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period, and then a piece of flesh for a similar period.h

Also, Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6395:

Abu Tufail reported:

I visited Abu Sariha Hudhaifa b. Usaid al-Ghifari who said: I listened with these two ears of mine Allahs Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The semen stays in the womb for forty nights, then the angel, gives it a shape. Zubair said: I think that he said: One who fashions that and decides whether he would be male or female. Then he (the angel) says: Would his limbs be full or imperfect? And then the Lord makes them full and perfect or otherwise as He desires. Then he says: My Lord, what about his livelihood, and his death and what about his disposition? And then the Lord decides about his misfortune and fortune.


These same details are also given in Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 549. Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 77, Number 593, Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 546 etc. The key information gained from all these above mentioned hadiths are that the three phases (nutfah, alaqah and madghah) takes 40 days each, for a total period of 40 + 40 + 40 = 120 days from conception to the point at which the embryo becomes a fetus. After that the blood clot was turned to bone and then God "clothed the bones with flesh" (Qurfan 23:13-14). And finally the gender of the child is assigned by an angel.

The whole idea is completely erroneous in many ways. First of all, the human embryo becomes a fetus around week 9, i.e, roughly half the time gIslamic embryologyh suggests. Again, there are no developmental milestones which can be mapped to the thrice forty day period, even though they are suggested in several authoritative hadiths with full support from Qurfan. Also, from medical science we know in human development process living tissue forms first, and then bones grow at a later time, and it continues to gain strength for many years after birth. But by expressing "blood clot was turned to bone" Qurfan in fact reveals its one of many scientific inaccuracies.

Finally, if we check the above cited verses of Qurfan carefully, we will find nowhere in Qurfan it mentions about human egg; instead Qurfan refers to the gdrop of seedh solely. This is because most primitive peoples including Arabs thought that the whole child was in the "seed" of the man. The woman was considered simply as the oven or incubator that fully contained in the fatherfs seed. They could not figure out its existence as no one could find the eggs of the woman at that time. It is a historical fact that prior to the medical community comprehending that women actually have eggs and men have sperm that must be combined to produce a child, it was widely believed that the whole child was contained in the man's seed. This was also Catholic Church doctrine for hundreds of years. Not "spilling one's seed on the ground" is an admonition against masturbation because it was believed that one's children would be eliminated. The majority of Islamic scholars consider it haram (prohibited) too for having direct support from hadith [21]. It can be pointed out from Islamic culture that the Shah of Iran divorced her wife Soraya (Soraya Esfandiari Bakhtiari) because of no children. In rural areas of Bangladesh, in similar fashion, many women gets divorced each year because they are wrongly blamed for not being capable of producing male child.

10 Top-most Scientific Myths about the Qur'an
http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/a...an_miracle.htm
 
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