[Msoto]

>Hey Y'all
>
>why can't we accept that we are an intolerant society? The
>muslims claim they are a tolerant society yet they cannot
>handle themselves when it comes to gays. The christians preach
>turning the other cheek yet are hell bent on eradicating
>homosexuality, they cannot even tolerate one gay bishop in
>their midst.

As coach did say you have a non healthy fixation against muslims and islam. Christians live according to the bible now if you want to be gay...the tenets which is what the bible says are very clear about this subject. If you want to be gay...continue being gay dont rationalize to us why you are also a christian they are incompatible.

>all of the do-gooders who come on this forum find it hard to
>accept gays.......sometimes I wonder if TM ,Coach, Mbajuni
>even have a gay friend, or an aquaintance...or if they have
>ever interacted with one? Ok, they'll all come blaring
>now.....yes they do. In that case have they ever sat down with
>a gay person and simply had a chat with no bias? One cannot
>say that it is a sin on one hand and yet interact with that
>sin.....isn't that hypocrisy?........like- i have no problem
>with gays but what they do is a sin......or try and be
>apologetic and say that you'll pray for them......silly
>believers.

Look the bible and in fact even the koran insists that people not ascribed to the religion or the faith should not be judged by it. A muslim practicing islam will choose not to associate with gays that is his/her prerogative.


>we can say all we want but ultimately if God had a problem
>with gays it wouldn't take Her long to eliminate them....and
>She wouldn't need our help,

God gives every one of His creations free will. We all choose how to live if you choose to be gay that is your choice. We as religious believers cannot hold a position of attempting to understand beyond our faculties which is what you are attempting. We don't know God's actions and why He does them thus commenting on them and their reasons is in vain and futile. Our inferior minds cannot comprehend it. You are free to ascribe to a different faith stance however dont tell christians how they should be christians when you arent one.
Thanks.


>We keep on listening to these verses and do not want to think
>for ourselves, as if that faculty has been taken away from
>us........

Who said that when we listening to verses we dont think? We merely believe what the verses hold are true. And psychologically i have shown how homosexuality is deviance...even biologically there is no evolutionary benefit of this kind of behaviour. Thus I have used my reasoning ability to justify why homosexuality is wrong in my perspective as a christian. Now if you choose to view it as right...please do so...however dont trample on my faith because you dont like it. I'm sorry my faith is what it is and if it cannot accomodate to your radical ideas then adopt your own faith that would do so.

>Nobody here has spoken logically without reference to any
>'holy' books.....although ATLian has come close.....

If someone gives any argument to support how "homosexuality" should be accepted and not frowned upon they are speaking logically.
I wonder what the extent comments i wrote about...all this time i thought they were logical.
I'm sorry they could not fit into your fine thread of suitability.

>.....gays are here to stay. let's face it...let's respect them
>and earn our respect from them. Let us learn tolerance in the
>face of extreme provocation. So what if they were cartoons? so
>what if the arch bishop was gay? How has that affected YOU
>personally? Did it hurt you? Did you bleed because someone
>else was gay?

Stop mixing issues...this article is about homosexuality and religion. Yes for christians one cannot take a position that is tantamount to being against their stand on faith. Thats why the Anglican Churck in Kenya has not endorsed the gay bishop. Yes that affects me as a believer that what I hold sacred is merely twisted to fit the societal norm....for no other valid scientific reason as to why homosexuality is anything but deviance. That peturbs me greatly and questions validity of the strength of the faith I ascribe to. Thats why christian/muslim faith will not tolerate homosexuality. Just because society is accepting does not mean that is acceptable religiously.

>religion is for retards, homosexuality for those who are at
>least true to themselves and Humanism for those who want to
>break off the shackles of these cults.

Now again stop brandishing people who hold a different perspective from yours as retards? Do you think that condescending statement will change religious adherents....Infact I hope it bolsters their faith and resolve. Since when did you become the custodian of truths to be able to pass judgement as to what each person is?

[satjas]

Hey Msoto

>As coach did say you have a non healthy fixation against
>muslims and islam.

yep, and you just wait till the sharia law becomes your law or they kill all your family right infront of you in the name of allah.........you think Hitler was bad? He got elected democratically, was popular and a good orator, oh and he was a Christian too, right Msoto??? What took the world so long as to let millions of jews killed for no reason???? But I repeat, I have no problems with muslims, in fact a have many good muslim friends, but islam begs many questions

> Christians live according to the bible now
>if you want to be gay...the tenets which is what the bible
>says are very clear about this subject.

Oh yeah , the bible is very clear on alot of things.....here we see the bible saying these people are worthy of death.......a mild way of saying, kill them!!!


"For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness,: full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." Rom. 1:23-32


> If you want to be
>gay...continue being gay dont rationalize to us why you are
>also a christian they are incompatible.

I am neither, yet i don't see why being gay cannot make one a good christian. Do you really think that God only communicates with Christians and Muslims? Do you guys put your bibles before God Almighty?????


>Look the bible and in fact even the koran insists that people
>not ascribed to the religion or the faith should not be judged
>by it. A muslim practicing islam will choose not to associate
>with gays that is his/her prerogative.

That sounds true, hypothetically speaking......but reality, hello Msoto, speaks otherwise. Try taking your Bible to saudi arabia and see if you will not be judged by your faith.

>God gives every one of His creations free will. We all choose
>how to live if you choose to be gay that is your choice.

Then how do you explain this same God condemning people who have chosen by their own free will to be gay??? Why Give someone freewill and then set down rules that undermine that same freewill. I tell you Msoto you have not yet understood what freewill means. Try reading it as two seperate words.......

> We as
>religious believers cannot hold a position of attempting to
>understand beyond our faculties which is what you are
>attempting.

that is why when one does not want to think or understand by falsely concluding that it is beyond their faculty that NO Growth or development occurs...hence the term retard-to hold back development. This is in your own words Msoto, please do not attempt at a future date to say otherwise. I am attempting what God has given me the freewill to do....and so do you have the same choice. You don't want to go that route, I do, is there a problem with that????

>We don't know God's actions and why He does them
>thus commenting on them and their reasons is in vain and
>futile.

No, we know God's actions, we know there are tsunamis and earthquakes and pedophiles and rapists all behaving according to God's plan. However we may not know the REASON for God's actions. There is a difference you know. The day you understand that a butterfly flapping its wings in Mexico has contributed to the tsunami in Thailand you will know what i am talking about.

> Our inferior minds cannot comprehend it.

You feel that way whereas I think our minds are far too superior that we have barely started using them all these millenia. Our thought process here is different.

>You are free
>to ascribe to a different faith stance however dont tell
>christians how they should be christians when you arent one.
>Thanks.

How do you know that i am/am-not a christian?? A good christian is one who follows what Jesus said to do and not one who follows the bible and certainly not one who follows christianity. Msoto, Jesus did not bring Christianity to this world. He reminded us about common sense. In fact Jesus was an anti-religious figure.


>Who said that when we listening to verses we dont think? We
>merely believe what the verses hold are true.

Msoto, you yourself said above that your inferior mind cannot comprehend it....now what more do you want me to say??? Isn't that exactly what i meant?????

> And
>psychologically i have shown how homosexuality is
>deviance...even biologically there is no evolutionary benefit
>of this kind of behaviour.

I certainly agree that there is no evolutionary benefit......HANG ON, how can the Christian in you dare mention evolutionary theories here????!?!?!?!?!????!!!!!

> Thus I have used my reasoning
>ability to justify why homosexuality is wrong in my
>perspective as a christian.

You definately have no clue what being gay really means...........this here is what is used to justify homophobia, like " i didn't say it, my religion tells me so" . Surely you must be beyond this bigotry Msoto? an educated person like yourself???

>Now if you choose to view it as
>right...please do so...however dont trample on my faith
>because you dont like it. I'm sorry my faith is what it is and
>if it cannot accomodate to your radical ideas then adopt your
>own faith that would do so.

Exactly, that is why you guys are so sorry because there is jack you can do about it.......common sense ceases to prevail. You feel trampled? doesn't your faith give you some kinda superhuman strength? Will you pray to God to give you strength and destroy disbelievers like me? Or are you sorry that you feel trampled? A person or Idea of strength never feels sorry or trampled, it stands out for itself!!!!!

>If someone gives any argument to support how "homosexuality"
>should be accepted and not frowned upon they are speaking
>logically.
>I wonder what the extent comments i wrote about...all this
>time i thought they were logical.
>I'm sorry they could not fit into your fine thread of
>suitability.

Hey Msoto when will you stop feeling sorry for yourself?? One does not accept something by disassociating oneself from it. Everything always seems logical to the one doing it.....try Harold Shipman, or Hitler for that matter.


>Stop mixing issues...this article is about homosexuality and
>religion. Yes for christians one cannot take a position that
>is tantamount to being against their stand on faith.

Here is why i say there is intolerance in religion.....now you agree.

>Thats why
>the Anglican Churck in Kenya has not endorsed the gay bishop.
>Yes that affects me as a believer that what I hold sacred is
>merely twisted to fit the societal norm....for no other valid
>scientific reason as to why homosexuality is anything but
>deviance.

By the way it was not long ago that crazy things were happening in the christian world because someone suggested the earth was round and that it was not the epicentre of the universe as they knew it. People died. Then they came up with scientific reasons. People died. Msoto, please don't let more people die?????at least not of ignorance??????

> That peturbs me greatly and questions validity of
>the strength of the faith I ascribe to.

Hmm.....does it now really? you get sleepless nights and no food on the table and it makes your faith weak? shift faith....see a shrink....Check out the Ultimate shrink...God, communicate directly with Him/Her......then you'll not be mentally disturbed or peturbed...i guess then the next point of call is being...retarded???

>Thats why
>christian/muslim faith will not tolerate homosexuality. Just
>because society is accepting does not mean that is acceptable
>religiously.

Now there's a good lad, No Tolerance whatsoever, why then go into all this hoohaa and try and come lashing out when this is exactly what i was talking about????

>Now again stop brandishing people who hold a different
>perspective from yours as retards?

Please try and understand that being a retard means to inhibit growth.....i said religion is for those who do not want to grow......religion doesn't allow one to think from outside the box. If 1 is being ignorant and 10 is being super knowledgeable, let's say at 5 religion retards further absorption of knowledge. Now a mentally retarded person on this scale would be 0.

> Do you think that
>condescending statement will change religious
>adherents....Infact I hope it bolsters their faith and
>resolve.

Oh yes i bet it will.....people generally believe that when 'bad' things are happening to them that God is 'testing' them and their resolve. That then makes this God appear wanting. But I ask you msoto, what doth God need that He have not????

>Since when did you become the custodian of truths to
>be able to pass judgement as to what each person is?

To observe a situation is not to pass a judgement on it. To observe that religious bigotry, as you have so well proved, exists is merely a loud observation.
I am the custodian of my truths. Have no fear that my truths may appear greater than yours....or even lesser, know only that i am the custodian of mine as are you of yours. Yet also acknowledge that no observation can be passed without a reference point. At the instant the reference point is introduced a judgement is passed. That my friend is the divine dichotomy. In the realm of the absolute, there is no reference for all there is is all there is, nothing else. When you get to that point you'll be at One with All There Is. That is where I am, that is where you can choose to be. If at any time before in your life you have never really spoken to God, know now that you have. If mountains can be moved and seas parted then God is also capable of using the internet. When you become the custodian of Truth you will also know that it is impossible to pass judgement on each person because 'each' does not exist. We are ALL ONE. There is no 'Other'.

-the paradim shifter.....God's friend through whom God has spoken to you.


The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[TeamManager]

@satjas,
I previously saw the same agruements defending bestiality.

[Msoto]

Hi Satjas
We most likely will disagree on many issues.
I have not brandished any name about 'homosexuals' in this argument i think that is offensive and inconsiderate.

Those who live in Saudi Arabia and have been able to developed a different view of the sharia law. Its because they have been exposed to different opportunities. Since this is true...we can extrapolate that if they feel that the law is limiting they can always relocate to another country. There are under no obligation to stay in Saudi Arabia for the rest of their lives. They can just cross the border into one of the neigbouring countries.
It is possible that some few individuals may exist who are dissatisfied with the system and would like to leave but dont know where.

Even the devil..can quote scripture. Thus its very easy to pick passages from different parts and twist the information so as to add credence as to what you believe to be true.
I never said God communicated with only Christians and Muslims. I think God communicates with everybody. People intepret this communication differently.

I think by being labelled a "christian" it means that one follows christ's teachings based on what is in the bible. Now the bible on many occasions is against homosexuality. Then why does one want to be a christian and gay at the same time...is it simply because its forbidden and that in itself is the temptation? If you are gay...you can believe in God...however if you choose to be christian you cannt then be gay. Its against tenets of christiniaty and islam so why do you want to be that?
No one is under any obligation to follow christianity or islam as a by stander? Do you choose not to eat meat...because Hindus believe that cows are sacred? Would you become a hindu so that you can claim how their beliefs are intolerant to people eating meat?

I cannot understand God...I believe that through the holy spirit and his will things will become clear to me. I think that my inability to think only from a "human perspective" limits my understanding on the actions and also by ability to reason. Yes I have a "free-will" but this perhaps is "limited" in terms of understanding God. He is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. I cannot complain or even begin to fathom with any of my faculties what his actions are. Why does He "apparently seem" so against gays yet gays can also reach to Him? As I said I am an inferior being...limited by my sentient capacity to analyse superior beings.
Can ant, a human ant, siafu, describe a human being completely, psychologically, physiologically, culturally, societally, historically? A human being can describe an ant completely with the different superlatives mentioned but can a siafu?
That is what I feel Satjas you want me to do....and I see it as pointless an exercise in futility.
When I stated that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent....then my thinking has already been limited.
You are attempting to use a 1 meter rule to measure an infinite distance and conclude a finite distance.
This is how I see it.

If I can understand then I cannot fail to reason. I dont think those two are as separate as you make them to be. I could reason and my reason could be wrong. However one's ability to reason or to make that statement is determined by whether they understand or not. I dont think you can reason what you cannot understand.

I cannot comprehend what God thinks...is different from understanding and being aware through faith of what God would expect me to do. What God expects christians/ muslims to do is outlined in the bible/koran and in the teachings of christianity and islam. I can comprehend what a good christian is expected to be from the sources mentioned above.

Just because I am a christian does not mean i discount evolution. To give a short example. First I see this two as separate issues. One deals with scientific methodology this is evolution and christianity deals with faith.

Thank you for the comments. I feel that my faith was questioned...at the same time...i feel that i will continue with it "blindly". It brings contentment to me such that few things actually do. Its in a way my self-actualization. I think for you...its in becoming a custodian of truth. I respect that we have different perspectives.

[satjas]

Hey Msoto

>Hi Satjas
>We most likely will disagree on many issues.

I respect that.

>I have not brandished any name about 'homosexuals' in this
>argument i think that is offensive and inconsiderate.

call a spade a spade........one only gets offended if one chooses to be offended.

>Those who live in Saudi Arabia and have been able to developed
>a different view of the sharia law. Its because they have been
>exposed to different opportunities. Since this is true...we
>can extrapolate that if they feel that the law is limiting
>they can always relocate to another country. There are under
>no obligation to stay in Saudi Arabia for the rest of their
>lives. They can just cross the border into one of the
>neigbouring countries.

You make it sound so easy, almost like moving from one room of a house into the other. Reality my friend Msoto speaks otherwise. And what excuse will they give for moving out? That they were dissatisfied with the sharia law??? C'mon Msoto, even you know that that is a recipe for disaster...that's inviting an execution right there!!!!!


>It is possible that some few individuals may exist who are
>dissatisfied with the system and would like to leave but dont
>know where.

aha, you have redeemed yourself.....but its not a few, it's many, but the hold of religion prevents them from speaking out loud.......guess what, WAFA SULTAN has received death threats, that courageous woman. Mbajuni, in case you read this, she should be a role model.

>Even the devil..can quote scripture. Thus its very easy to
>pick passages from different parts and twist the information
>so as to add credence as to what you believe to be true.

hence the fallacy of these religious books, why would a perfect God create a shambles with incoherrent, misinterpreted ,gobbledegook???? and before you quote me silly i have read the bible and the kooran too. Many contradictions.

>I never said God communicated with only Christians and
>Muslims. I think God communicates with everybody. People
>intepret this communication differently.

Perhaps herein lies the problem. You say this yet each one of the above claim to be the correct true ones to communicate with God via their books!!!!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

>I think by being labelled a "christian" it means that one
>follows christ's teachings based on what is in the bible.

The bible is not an authority on God, the bible may have wonderful stories written by people who were inspired by Jesus, but it was never Jesus's story...he never wrote it...as such it is not authentically Jesus's teachings per se.


> If you are gay...you can believe in God...however
>if you choose to be christian you cannt then be gay. Its
>against tenets of christiniaty and islam so why do you want to
>be that?

ok so let's get this right....God talks to EVERYBODY, including christians and gays and God wouldn't have a problem with that otherwise God wouldn't talk to them. But the christians who believe in the Bible and via it Jesus and thus God have a problem with Gays despite the fact that God talks to them and as such they cannot be included in the exclusive christian club, which is based on Jesus's teachings above love for ALL. Hmm...i'm out of breath here.......Therefore we conclude that the Christian Club has more to offer than God's Club (Humanity) just like a paying members (allegiance to Jesus) club has more benefits than an ordinary non paying (allegiance to nothing in particular) club.
God. i love you guys, especially when you come up with such rhetoric......smashing!!!!


>No one is under any obligation to follow christianity or islam
>as a by stander?

you talk about religions that actively proselytize (what happened to the african before the arab or white man came??? were the africans bystanders? In fact they were at peace with themselves)

> Do you choose not to eat meat...because
>Hindus believe that cows are sacred? Would you become a hindu
>so that you can claim how their beliefs are intolerant to
>people eating meat?

Msoto, Hindu's do not proselytize, have you ever met one???? I think not. I choose not to eat meat because i wouldn't take another life just to satisfy my tastes. That is common sense. Yet to quote your bible "thou shalt not kill" has obviously lost meaning to you. Or perhaps you can find me a bible that says " thou shalt not kill another man only but anything else"????

>I cannot understand God...I believe that through the holy
>spirit and his will things will become clear to me.

Your will for you is God's will for you. God's will for you is not your will, it is still God's will. But what is God's will? Do you think you are doing all your actions in your day to day life according to God's will?? If we all did God's will this place would become heaven overnight. Yet for 2000yrs you have been doing "God's will" but to no avail. it's time for a paradigm shift my friend.

> Yes I have a "free-will" but this perhaps is "limited"
>in terms of understanding God.

Then you do not have freewill.....freewill cannot be limited by ANYTHING, it's simply Free!!! Please think about this deeply. One can understand God but one cannot comprehend God.

> He is omnipotent, omnipresent,
>omniscient. I cannot complain or even begin to fathom with any
>of my faculties what his actions are.

Absolutely in agreement with you. See, we have some things in common too!!!!

>Why does He "apparently
>seem" so against gays yet gays can also reach to Him? As I
>said I am an inferior being...limited by my sentient capacity
>to analyse superior beings.

First of all it would do you justice to understand that you are not inferior, just as no one is superior to you. Likewise, think not for God, let God deal with His gay issue. But most importantly do not rely on your bible as an inference tool. This 'apparent' veil is what has lead to bigotry in this world. I urge you not to be part of it. It may seem like the hardest thing you have ever done, however when you shed the unnecessary baggage of religious dogmas you will truly become en-light-tened( i.e. less heavy)


>Can ant, a human ant, siafu, describe a human being
>completely, psychologically, physiologically, culturally,
>societally, historically? A human being can describe an ant
>completely with the different superlatives mentioned but can a
>siafu?

on what grounds can we say that an ant has no description for us? how do we know? If anything we should take a lesson from them.....see how they work as a team, they behave like ONE, what a good example for all of us. How can they organize themselves so well that we humans ( so called superior beings) cannot?? Here comes Coach yelling "the miracles of allah"!!!!!!!

>That is what I feel Satjas you want me to do....and I see it
>as pointless an exercise in futility.

when one aims for the moon one might not get there, but one won't have their feet in mud either. Like i said, you choose if you think it is futile

>When I stated that God is omnipotent, omniscient,
>omnipresent....then my thinking has already been limited.

OK, i must admit i did not understand what you meant above.

>You are attempting to use a 1 meter rule to measure an
>infinite distance and conclude a finite distance.
>This is how I see it.

you see wrong my friend 1 x infinity = infinity...the one metre rule still has a purpose. It is always very difficult to see something from another person's perspective. Perhaps we are on different wave-lengths here...same frequency but different wave-lengths.

>If I can understand then I cannot fail to reason. I dont think
>those two are as separate as you make them to be.

A smoker can understand that smoking kills, but a smoker may continue to smoke because he/she cannot see any reason to give up.Hence the smoker who understands it kills has failed to reason.

> I could
>reason and my reason could be wrong. However one's ability to
>reason or to make that statement is determined by whether they
>understand or not. I dont think you can reason what you cannot
>understand.

i have very carefully read what you have said above. My conclusion is, like you said in your last statement that one cannot reason if one cannot understand....therefore unless i understand something i will not be able to reason and hence my reason can/should not be wrong otherwise it means i never understood in the first place......hmm, going around in circles.....

>I cannot comprehend what God thinks...is different from
>understanding and being aware through faith of what God would
>expect me to do.

Msoto, God expects you to do nothing. I know they'll all shout blasphemy, but think about it...if God is Omnipotent then God will make you do the things he wants you to do even if you know about it or not. Its like being a pawn on a chess board. So remember God has no expectations of you either, for if God is all knowing then yeah, God knows exactly what you will do in year 2030 at 9.30 hrs on a march monday morning, so why worry????

> What God expects christians/ muslims to do is
>outlined in the bible/koran and in the teachings of
>christianity and islam. I can comprehend what a good christian
>is expected to be from the sources mentioned above.

That is where the problem lies, the religions have made it so manifest that these books have all the codes to proper behaviour to acquire God's blessings whilst in truth it's only bondage and lack of mental freedom.

>Just because I am a christian does not mean i discount
>evolution. To give a short example. First I see this two as
>separate issues. One deals with scientific methodology this is
>evolution and christianity deals with faith.

Every single thing that you do in life is based on what your spirit feels. It is impossible to seperate science and faith or God. Well, who created science in the first place???

>Thank you for the comments. I feel that my faith was
>questioned...at the same time...i feel that i will continue
>with it "blindly".

and that is why "bad" things happen in life when good men choose to do nothing, feeling blissfully happy in following things blindly.

>It brings contentment to me such that few
>things actually do. Its in a way my self-actualization. I
>think for you...its in becoming a custodian of truth. I
>respect that we have different perspectives.

Yet remember the truth that I have brought out to you, to share unselfishly in the abundance of higher truths that may be revealed to us, by persons unknown but with an inkling that it might be God speaking to us; so blossom forth my child in full knowledge that you have to do nothing to please Me, I expect nothing of you and be true to yourself always. Satjas respects you too.

-the paradigm shifter.....God's friend...the God who loves gays too!!!!

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.