[reggie_woic]

There you go!!
Couldn't have put it any better, ATLian.

I too feel the gayness isn't a choice...i don't see how a standard one raised in kenya could have chosen to be gay.

Msoto, if your next move is to suggest that they need psychiatric help to straighten them (pun intended), i think that the same explanation ATLian gave applies here too.

[Msoto]

First ATLian thank you for your post. Now before we begin any cyclical argument. I would like to quote what I had written earlier so that my statement on homosexuality being a personal choice can be understood better.
" Being gay is as much about choice if not more than it is about being genetic. "
Psychologically we can make conscious and unconscious decisions which are influenced by our self-concept which is in turn shaped by our genetic make up and also by the environment in which we grow up. My statement above states that its possible that one can become gay due to hereditary and some articles have been written that do show modest correlations. However more articles show that the prevalence of being gay is more influenced by the environment in which one grows up.

Now there is a psychological disorder that is believed to result in people becoming transexual (men who want to be in a female body or vice versa and seek a sexual change) or homosexuals. This disorder is termed as "Gender Identity Disorder".
This disorder occurs because of sexual atypical behaviour during childhood instead of sexual typical behaviour. Therefore when growing up if a boy is found to be playing more "girl-like" games like hopscotch etc, likes to dress in feminine clothes...there are very likely to become homosexual in adulthood. The same is also true for girls who engage in more "boy-like" games like football and show un-toward aggressive. Notice that when I say very likely it does not mean that all girls who play football will become gay or all guys who play "girl-like" games will become gay.


>did you chose to be straight? Did you ever fika the gay and
>straight crossroad in your life where you thought about going
>straight or gay, and after weighing options out, you decided
>to go straight? Of course not.

In order to understand how decisions are made one should understand how one formulates an identity. For one to choose to be straight or not one is influenced by the environment in which they grow up and the decisions they make consciously and unconsciously. I grew up in an environment where boys were encouraged to play soccer to engage in boy-like actitives. Therefore my decision for becoming straight was more with what was generally occuring...the activties we were engaged in paved the way for straightness. I was born straight...yes I dont think i was born with a predisposition to be gay..or more correctly with the "gender identity disorder" that i described above that is more linked with homosexual men. Correlations for homosexual women is less significant.

To further add evidence on societal influences on being gay...there is a tribe in papua new guinea that is known to practice this behaviour. In the frame and context of any boy growing up in that society...that is considered "normal". Psycho-social factors influences ones cognition level considerably.

>that's it, period. So why do you think that gays reached that
>same crossroad and instead chose to go gay? If it doesn't
>exist for you, why should it exist for gays? Ditto the gay
>gene theory - of course there's no straight gene, so why
>should there be a gay gene? Let's not apply double standards.

Again sometimes its good to be aware that there have been extensive studies carried out and corroborated. I am in no mood to sift out APA (American Psychological Association) papers on this topic...however feel free to search for yourself. And in general it is accepted that there is a hereditary component that can predispose one to become gay. This means that although a "gene" has not been identified there are biological signs...for example an enlarged hypothalamus is a difference between straight men and gay men. Again this does not mean all gay men will have a larger hypothalamus than straight men but on average...gay men have a larger hypothalamus.

>I think gayness is just something you're born with. We had
>this guy in our primo (Westlands, for those alumns who may
>remember) who we used to call "Ballet" coz of how he used to
>run, walk, etc. From Standard 1, the chap had no interest in
>all the "manly" things like soccer, etc. He was just in his
>own world.

Your example clearly demonstrates the "gender identity disorder" i described above. This is due to sex atypical behaviour. "Ballet" did not engage in the "man-like" activities when he was young and since he didnt it is only plausible that this contributed to him becoming homosexual in adulthood. It is also possible he could come from a family that had enlarged hypothalamus glands and thus increase the likely hood for him becoming gay.

>Of course then we (and he) never understood what
>was up. It was only later on (after high school) that we
>realized that he was gay (right now he's openly gay in
>Nairobi). Ballet never had a choice, that's just how he was
>programmed.

There is where we are mistaken....Ballet's choice could be subconsciously/consciously influenced. He could have been encouraged to play in "boy-like activities". No one just wakes up in the morning and decides to do "boy-like actitivies". When I was growing up friends would call me and encourage me to go and play...it is that kind of encouragement to join others...rather than waiting for them to speak up. That could have influenced how he would have grown. Perhaps all of you made fun of him for refusing to play and that repressed his ideas about playing the "manly" games. Without realising it you guys pushed him to the extent of changing his self-concept....he wasnt appreciated. Did you encourage him to play the games...or just made fun of him?
In either case he clearly demonstrated "Gender Identity Disorder" whose treatment is to show the child that sex atypical behaviour are not as rewarding as sex typical behaviour. There are many ways of changing behaviour...the best is perhaps positive reinforcement with different reward schemes most of which should be physical but like "good job"...."marvelous"....positive comments. When he engages in boy like behaviour. Negative reinforcement could be carried out when he engaged in girl actitivies "thats bad ballet"...."you shouldn't do that ballet"....."people will be upset ballet". As simple as it sounds it goes a long way in psycho-neural profiling of a child into acceptable forms of societal behaviour and plays an important part in the self concept that ballet will develop and eventually the decisions they make. Thus their choice has been constructively influenced.

>He'll never feel what I feel for chics, just like
>I'll never feel what he feels for guys. So why should we fault
>him for that - especially if you believe that it's god who
>makes us all as we are?

I do not fault him for making the decision he did. I think more importantly its the environment that should be faulted for failing to constructively influence his self-concept. He had the identity crisis which could have been easily resolved....unless he had that coupled with hypothalamus enlargement....which now might have required some cognitive behavioral therapy in addition to psychodynamic therapy to alter.

[nottielurve]

>Please don't refer to me as a faggot. I am gay. If you
>bothered reading the links i had posted, you will found out
>what secular humanism is.

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[timmys]

Msoto, you have just highlighted a lot of science.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16153

[Msoto]

>Msoto, you have just highlighted a lot of science.
>http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16153

Do you believe I plagirized the information?

[Msoto]

>>Msoto, you have just highlighted a lot of science.
>>http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16153
>
>Do you believe I plagirized the information?

Thank you for making me look like a photo-copier. When these issues struck your core belief so strongly...i think discrediting me was an immediate option. You searched viciously to see where I am getting the ideas or the material? However I dont see what you are trying to achieve.

Out of curiosity i did look at the site. It is the first time i did see it. Some of the ideas expressed there are similar to mine. Should i cite the number of scientists who have gotten joint awards for discoveries in different fields...while not working together? Or perhaps that might be highlighting too much science?

[arsenal2005]

Proverbs 9:6-10

6 Leave your simple ways and you will live;
walk in the way of understanding.

7 Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult;
whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse.

8 Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you;
rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

9 Instruct a wise man and he will be wiser still;
teach a righteous man and he will add to his learning.

10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding

[veritas]

>>....so in order to be true followers of Christ (to follow
>his
>>teachings), they would have to renounce their orientation.
>>
>>I have a feeling this is hardly practical, unless being gay
>>was a choice.
>
>Well who says that its not a choice, that we make?
>
>Being gay is as much about choice if not more than it is about
>being genetic. There is no "gay gene" that has been
>scientifically proven and validated by different articles to
>exist. There are some correlations which arent even strong
>enough to make any conclusion.
>However there is alot of evidence on environmental factors
>leading to one's apparent condition...therefore until I see a
>blue print of a "gay gene" its a matter of choice as I see
>it.

I agree there's no scientific proof for "gay gene". I do believe homosexuality is a sin, a long with lying, decieving and sex before marriage etc. There's no measure in sin, we're all sinners, none of us are perfect. Sinning in their sexuality preference is their choice, their private affair. So what? Get over it. You have cannibals, child molesters, rapers, murderers etc. Now those are sins worth condemning because it puts people at risk.

[satjas]

Hey Y'all

why can't we accept that we are an intolerant society? The muslims claim they are a tolerant society yet they cannot handle themselves when it comes to gays. The christians preach turning the other cheek yet are hell bent on eradicating homosexuality, they cannot even tolerate one gay bishop in their midst.

all of the do-gooders who come on this forum find it hard to accept gays.......sometimes I wonder if TM ,Coach, Mbajuni even have a gay friend, or an aquaintance...or if they have ever interacted with one? Ok, they'll all come blaring now.....yes they do. In that case have they ever sat down with a gay person and simply had a chat with no bias? One cannot say that it is a sin on one hand and yet interact with that sin.....isn't that hypocrisy?........like- i have no problem with gays but what they do is a sin......or try and be apologetic and say that you'll pray for them......silly believers.

if the bible says, love your neighbour......then let's not single out gays as an exception. When will we get out of the kind of thinking that being gay does not necessarily mean being highly sexual or promiscous?

we can say all we want but ultimately if God had a problem with gays it wouldn't take Her long to eliminate them....and She wouldn't need our help, humans!!!! homosexuality has existed long before the advent of the bible and it is here to stay. All this trash about certain religious books saying this or that.......why can't this God speak now? especially now that we have all these problems in this world???? Because the muslims have declared their book to be the final and last message (fancy speaking on God's behalf) and the christians have no problem cause Jesus died for all our sins 2000 yrs ago. So what the heck? have fun and be merry. And we humans? We keep on listening to these verses and do not want to think for ourselves, as if that faculty has been taken away from us........
Nobody here has spoken logically without reference to any 'holy' books.....although ATLian has come close.....

.....gays are here to stay. let's face it...let's respect them and earn our respect from them. Let us learn tolerance in the face of extreme provocation. So what if they were cartoons? so what if the arch bishop was gay? How has that affected YOU personally? Did it hurt you? Did you bleed because someone else was gay?

religion is for retards, homosexuality for those who are at least true to themselves and Humanism for those who want to break off the shackles of these cults.

-the paradigm shifter......God's friend, no proxies required!!


The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[Msoto]

>>>....so in order to be true followers of Christ (to follow
>>his
>>>teachings), they would have to renounce their orientation.
>>>
>>>I have a feeling this is hardly practical, unless being gay
>>>was a choice.
>>
>>Well who says that its not a choice, that we make?
>>
>>Being gay is as much about choice if not more than it is
>about
>>being genetic. There is no "gay gene" that has been
>>scientifically proven and validated by different articles to
>>exist. There are some correlations which arent even strong
>>enough to make any conclusion.
>>However there is alot of evidence on environmental factors
>>leading to one's apparent condition...therefore until I see
>a
>>blue print of a "gay gene" its a matter of choice as I see
>>it.
>
>I agree there's no scientific proof for "gay gene". I do
>believe homosexuality is a sin, a long with lying, decieving
>and sex before marriage etc. There's no measure in sin, we're
>all sinners, none of us are perfect. Sinning in their
>sexuality preference is their choice, their private affair. So
>what? Get over it. You have cannibals, child molesters,
>rapers, murderers etc. Now those are sins worth condemning
>because it puts people at risk.

Look i'm not against people being gay...i'm against them being gay and being christian/muslim. My reasons are clearly stipulated above.