[Coach]

Muslims were told that European countries have 'freedom of speech' and that was their justification for the publishing of the cartoons insulting Prophet Muhammad PBUH. Now a historian is jailed because he DENIED THE HOLOCAUST.

People were baffled when a newspaper in Iran run a competition for the 'best holocaust cartoon'; they understood that there actually were some things that were taboo in the west despite their repeated claims that they have complete freedom of expression.






Holocaust denier Irving is jailed
British historian David Irving has been found guilty in Vienna of denying the Holocaust of European Jewry and sentenced to three years in prison.

He had pleaded guilty to the charge, based on a speech and interview he gave in Austria in 1989.

"I made a mistake when I said there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz," he told the court in the Austrian capital.

Irving appeared stunned by the sentence, and told reporters: "I'm very shocked and I'm going to appeal."

An unidentified onlooker told him: "Stay strong!"

Irving's lawyer said he considered the verdict "a little too stringent".

"I would say it's a bit of a message trial," said Elmar Kresbach.

Karen Pollock, chief executive of the UK's Holocaust Educational Trust welcomed the verdict. "Holocaust denial is anti-Semitism dressed up as intellectual debate. It should be regarded as such and treated as such," Ms Pollock told the BBC News website.

But the author and academic Deborah Lipstadt, who Irving unsuccessfully sued for libel in the UK in 2000 over claims that he was a Holocaust denier, said she was dismayed.

"I am not happy when censorship wins, and I don't believe in winning battles via censorship... The way of fighting Holocaust deniers is with history and with truth," she told the BBC News website.

I'm not an expert on the Holocaust
David Irving

Fears that the court case would provoke right-wing demonstrations and counter-protests did not materialise, the BBC's Ben Brown at the court in Vienna said.

Irving, 67, arrived in the court room handcuffed, wearing a blue suit, and carrying a copy of Hitler's War, one of many books he has written on the Nazis, and which challenges the extent of the Holocaust.

Irving was arrested in Austria in November, on a warrant dating back to 1989, when he gave a speech and interview denying the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz.

He was stopped by police on a motorway in southern Austria, where he was visiting to give a lecture to a far-right student fraternity. He has been held in custody since then.

'I've changed'

During the one-day trial, he was questioned by the prosecutor and chief judge, and answered questions in fluent German.

He admitted that in 1989 he had denied that Nazi Germany had killed millions of Jews. He said this is what he believed, until he later saw the personal files of Adolf Eichmann, the chief organiser of the Holocaust.

"I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now," Irving told the court.

"The Nazis did murder millions of Jews."

In the past, he had claimed that Adolf Hitler knew little, if anything, about the Holocaust, and that the gas chambers were a hoax.


COUNTRIES WITH LAWS AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Switzerland

The judge in his 2000 libel trial declared him "an active Holocaust denier... anti-Semitic and racist".

On Monday, before the trial began, he told reporters: "I'm not a Holocaust denier. Obviously, I've changed my views.

"History is a constantly growing tree - the more you know, the more documents become available, the more you learn, and I have learned a lot since 1989."

Asked how many Jews were killed by Nazis, he replied: "I don't know the figures. I'm not an expert on the Holocaust."

Of his guilty plea, he told reporters: "I have no choice."

He said it was "ridiculous" that he was being tried for expressing an opinion.

"Of course it's a question of freedom of speech... I think within 12 months this law will have vanished from the Austrian statute book," he said.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/h...pe/4733820.stm

Published: 2006/02/20 20:19:07 GMT

© BBC MMVI


Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4733820.stm

[TeamManager]

>Muslims were told that European countries have 'freedom of
>speech' and that was their justification for the publishing of
>the cartoons insulting Prophet Muhammad PBUH. Now a historian
>is jailed because he DENIED THE HOLOCAUST.
>
>People were baffled when a newspaper in Iran run a competition
>for the 'best holocaust cartoon'; they understood that there
>actually were some things that were taboo in the west despite
>their repeated claims that they have complete freedom of
>expression.

Shifting goal posts! The 'freedom of speech' justification was a big sick joke.
Ati ..... jailed for denying something that he did not participate in or control

[Death]

@Coach,

I have a couple of things to say about the article you posted, however, there's one point I want to drive in, and as such I'll stick to that. What you seem to be doing here is committing the classical fallacy known as:
Ad hominem tu quoque (literally, "at the person, you too")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_homi...inem_tu_quoque

The fact that someone else does something, doesn't make the action right. So if your intent is to defend those less than peacefull members of islam that chose to violently protest, this hardly serves as evidence to support your claim.

[Delyteful]

>The fact that someone else does something, doesn't make the
>action right. So if your intent is to defend those less than
>peacefull members of islam that chose to violently protest,
>this hardly serves as evidence to support your claim.

this isnt about justifying anyone's actions.. its about the hypocrisy of the whole thing..

everyone understands and sympathizes when it comes to the Jews but when Muslims react about an insult made about Islam, everyone suddenly acts dumb and claims that Muslims are overreacting

[TeamManager]

>everyone suddenly acts dumb and claims that Muslims are
>overreacting

The cartoons were equally wrong BUT the riots and deaths are more pathetic.

As I always say .... let God fight His battles and handle issues according to His own wisdom instead of people burning, killing and destroying.

[Mbajuni]

>The cartoons were equally wrong BUT the riots and deaths are
>more pathetic.

I think we are going round in circles here...We seem to all agree that...

1) Muslims have a right to be offended

2) The West is being hypocritical

3) Violence is a wrong solution and those who resort to such are criminals in law and in Islam

So let's let the ball rest now.


>As I always say .... let God fight His battles and handle
>issues according to His own wisdom instead of people burning,
>killing and destroying.

Yes, I agree with you...As Allah Himself said:

(6.108) And do not abuse those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest exceeding the limits they should abuse Allah out of ignorance. Thus have We made fair seeming to every people their deeds; then to their Lord shall be their return, so He will inform them of what they did.

[milanya]

You know what, freedom of speech is all good and all, but this people and their cartoon caused so much drama the world could do with out. Mpaka now they've had to go into hiding. I hope their freedom of speech was worth the loss of their other freedoms.
Life's not a garden so don't be a hoe

[TeamManager]

>You know what, freedom of speech is all good and all, but
>this people and their cartoon caused so much drama the world
>could do with out.

The drama that the world could do without was cause by who?

>Mpaka now they've had to go into hiding. I
>hope their freedom of speech was worth the loss of their other
>freedoms.

Dont you think its totally pathetic that someone has to hide from you .....all because you cant hold your peace and allow allah to punish him directly instead.

I though muslims also teach that everyone will have to give an account on that last day.

[milanya]

It is one thing if your speech is to further a worthwhile cause. tell me, what was the cartoonist trying to achieve, coz i dont know

[mwaniki wa njeri]

>It is one thing if your speech is to further a worthwhile
>cause. tell me, what was the cartoonist trying to achieve, coz
>i dont know

Western press is known for with holding information for example if it pertains to troop operations (as in Iraq) or if it involves say child rape victims. the story that freedom of speech is an unviolatable rule is bullsh*t. they just didn't think pissing off the world muslim community was important enough.

Two Presidents and One Nobel Prize. History bears witness to our superiority. Kyukphobia? dial helpline 1800 - EATSH*T