[Coach]

blowfish,

>Interesting.
>The accounts of Jesus' techings as recorded in both the Quran
>and the Bible dont differ a lot. What i dont understand is
>why Muslims wont follow the teachings of a prophet they
>consider one of their greatest, but will be quick to say 'ni
>wetu'. am talking of the core doctrines of loving and
>forgiving and turning the other cheek etcetera. Reminds me of
>when Jesus was reprimanding the pharisees for speaking highly
>of the prophets and making nice tombs for them but never
>obeying them.


Here you show your lack of knowledge when it comes to Islam. Islam considers Moses and Jesus (PBUT) as Prophets of God. But these Messengers were both sent to a specific people, the Jews. Muhammad (PBUH) is a Prophet sent to humanity and that's why Muslims all over the world, from every continent and race follow his teachings. Messengers throughout time have come with the same Message; belief in God and promoting/doing virtue and avoiding vice.

In Islamic Law, when someone commits murder, they are to be sentenced to death by the courts...here comes the part you want...BUT, the family members of the victim (the person killed) can choose to forgive the murderer and he/she will walk free. The same applies to all crimes committed against individuals.

PS: Did you know that someone is not a Muslim if he/she doesn't believe in David, Solomon, Moses, Jesus, John the baptist, Joseph (PBUT)?

[blowfish]

>Here you show your lack of knowledge when it comes to Islam.
>Islam considers Moses and Jesus (PBUT) as Prophets of God. But
>these Messengers were both sent to a specific people, the
>Jews. Muhammad (PBUH) is a Prophet sent to humanity and that's
>why Muslims all over the world, from every continent and race
>follow his teachings. Messengers throughout time have come
>with the same Message; belief in God and promoting/doing
>virtue and avoiding vice.
>
>In Islamic Law, when someone commits murder, they are to be
>sentenced to death by the courts...here comes the part you
>want...BUT, the family members of the victim (the person
>killed) can choose to forgive the murderer and he/she will
>walk free. The same applies to all crimes committed against
>individuals.
>
>PS: Did you know that someone is not a Muslim if he/she
>doesn't believe in David, Solomon, Moses, Jesus, John the
>baptist, Joseph (PBUT)?


Coach,
thanks for enlightening me hapo. now, am wondering where 'fatwah' falls.. doesnt it go against Jesus (in this case, the prophet Issa) who forbade Peter to call down fire on the villages that had rejected the message?

>..BUT, the family members of the victim (the person
>killed) can choose to forgive the murderer and he/she will
>walk free.

and is forgiving really a matter of choice. Jesus taught in the parable of the man indebted to the king that what we were forgiven far outweighs any forgiving we could ever do. i dont see any space for choice here. i dont know very much about Islam myself, but i know that am yet to meet or hear of a muslim who obeys all these blessed prophets, esp Jesus to whom the rest pointed to as the 'Coming One'.

if Jesus and the prophets were Muslims, an ignorant passerby would easily conclude that there are no more Muslims left.

[Mbajuni]

The Quran says......

(5.18) And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay, you are mortals from among those whom He has created, He forgives whom He pleases and chastises whom He pleases; and Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and to Him is the eventual coming.

----------------------------------------------

Thank you for clarifying that Coach. Allah is the name for God, the same way Mungu is also God. So it's a cache 22 argument here.

Now in regards to whether Abraham was Muslim or Christian... He was more a Jew than both so no point arguing here. From Abraham came Isaac and Ishmael. The christians believed that Isaac was the legitimate older son of Abraham because Ishmael was born through the slave. Isaac bore so and so who bore so and so....etc and then came Jesus.
On the other hand, since Muslims believe that the first son is always the first son whether illegitimate or not, we follow Ishmael. If you knew your history then you would know that Ishmael's descendants lived in the valley of Kedar according to the bible, which today is Saudi Arabia. If you look at what the bible says about Kedar....

[7] All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.

(I.E. MECCAN PILGRIMAGE AT THE END OF WHICH MUSLIMS SLAUGHTER AN ANIMAL THAT OCCURES AT THE AL-KAABA, THE HOLY HOUSE OF GOD TO MUSLIMS)

So for those who wanted proof that the descendants of Islam are also from Abraham, there it is attested from your own book!

As to whether Jesus was Muslim or Christian. The word Christian means "follower of Christ" so I don't think Jesus was a Christian and neither was Abraham because how can you follow yourself or how can you follow someone who came after your time?? The Quran says…( NB: Followers of the book means Jews and Christians while Taurat and Injeel mean Torah and Bible)

(3.65) O followers of the Book! why do you dispute about Ibrahim, when the Taurat and the Injeel were not revealed till after him; do you not then understand?

On the other hand, the word Islam means to submit i.e. submitting to God. So since Abraham and Christians both submitted to God then I would assume that they are both more Muslim than christian. Essentially, we are all submitters to God as we surrender our lives to Him (spiritually speaking, not suicide bombers here).

-------------------------

Whether they are christian, Muslim, Jew or whatsoever, what matters is that they called for worshipping ONE God, not three, ten or eleven. We are all monetheistic religions. To quote directly from the Quran...

(3.64) Say: O followers of the Book! come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not serve any but Allah and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah; but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims.

(5.19) O followers of the Book! indeed Our Apostle has come to you explaining to you after a cessation of the (mission of the) apostles, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a warner, so indeed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner; and Allah has power over all things.

(5.59) Say: O followers of the Book! do you find fault with us (for aught) except that we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before, and that most of you are transgressors?

And so many more verses as Allah (God) being all knowing, new a day would come when such problems between the religions would arise would arise.
-------------------------------

Christians may cast us off, Jews may cast us off but we believe in the same God and all this is NOT a matter coincidence or falsified facts. There is only one valley of Kader and one prophet named Abraham so why dispute? We believe Jesus was born of a virgin just like the Quran says...

(3.45) When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
(3.46) And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones.
(3.47) She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.
(3.48) And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat and the Injeel. [Torah and Bible]
(3.49) And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.

The prophet Mohammed (PBUH) did NOT “borrow” this from other religions. When these verses were revealed, he had never been educated on ANY of the other religions as the Arab world was then pagan. So how do you explain the accuracy with names etc with the old testament? So this is DEFINITELY no coincidence. We are one big family. We may not be happy about it but we are still the same, though not identical.

Unlike Christianity, to Muslims, Isa (Jesus) and Ibrahim (Abraham) were sent to specific people (Jews) and Mohammed (PBUH) was sent to whole of humanity as was mentioned by someone else before in the thread. The other difference between Muslims and christians (which is a major difference) is that we do not believe in the trinity as God to us does not beget, nor is he begotten.

In one of the phrases in the Quran it says...

(9.30) And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
(9.31) They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one God only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).

[Coach]

>Coach,
>thanks for enlightening me hapo. now, am wondering where
>'fatwah' falls.. doesnt it go against Jesus (in this case, the
>prophet Issa) who forbade Peter to call down fire on the
>villages that had rejected the message?

blowfish,
Fatwa means 'opinion' or 'legal pronouncement' issued by a scholar. What has a word like this have to do with "fire on the village"? If you understood it to mean 'force someone to accept Islam' then you are wrong. The Qur'an clealry says...

" There is NO compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing." (Qur'an 2:256)


>>..BUT, the family members of the victim (the person
>>killed) can choose to forgive the murderer and he/she will
>>walk free.
>
>and is forgiving really a matter of choice. Jesus taught in
>the parable of the man indebted to the king that what we were
>forgiven far outweighs any forgiving we could ever do. i dont
>see any space for choice here. i dont know very much about
>Islam myself, but i know that am yet to meet or hear of a
>muslim who obeys all these blessed prophets, esp Jesus to whom
>the rest pointed to as the 'Coming One'.

Forgiving is a choice; in order for a society to function, there must be laws and regulations and a body that ensures that people abide by them. This is a central issue that makes a difference between a society functionning or falling to chaos. If all criminals were forgiven every time they commit a crime then there wouldn't be any deterrent. Forgiveness is indeed a virtue, but it cannot be the norm in every sphere of society. Society simply wouldn't function.

PS: Muslims believe in the second coming of Jesus too.



>if Jesus and the prophets were Muslims, an ignorant passerby
>would easily conclude that there are no more Muslims left.

Well that would be an ignorant conclusion.

[blowfish]

>" There is NO compulsion in religion, for the right way is
>clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the
>forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a
>support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is
>All Hearing and Knowing." (Qur'an 2:256)

i meant jihad not fatwah. where does jihad come in? seems clearly forbidden by the verse above.

BTW : sorry to ask Coach, but are you a Muslim?

[Coach]

>i meant jihad not fatwah. where does jihad come in? seems
>clearly forbidden by the verse above.

Jihad does not mean 'forcing someone to convert to Islam'. Jihad means "to struggle", "to strive" or "to exert utmost effort". There are two types of Jihad, Jihad Akbar (greater Jihad) and Jihad Asghar (lesser Jihad). Greater Jihad is that of the SELF, striving to become a better person which is of great benefit to the person and those around him/her. The Lesser Jihad is a military struggle, Holy War, defence of Holy lands etc. When the early Muslims came back from a battle against the polytheists of Mecca who had attacked them, the Prophet Muhammad PBUH famously said..."We are finished with the lesser jihad (struggle) and now we are starting the greater jihad". His companions were shocked as they thought fighting against enemies of God was the greatest thing there was...he explained to them that the struggle against one's own 'lust', 'ego' or 'self' was a much greater struggle.




>BTW : sorry to ask Coach, but are you a Muslim?

No need to be sorry mate, yes I am a Muslim.

[Mbajuni]

>>Now in regards to whether Abraham was Muslim or Christian...
>He was more a Jew than both so no point arguing here.

I would like to correct myself in my statement here. Upon further research I found out according to my religion a different answer to this. Since I would not like to depict beliefs variant from what my religion says, I would like to reanswer this specific part by directly quoting the Quran...

(3.67) Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.

[TeamManager]

Please dont tell me that Islam & Allah connection to Abraham is based on just:-

1. That the name Allah also means God. - i can give you a list of names that similarly mean God. BTW, as far as I know Allah is the personal name of the muslim deity while Yahweh si the personal name of God in the Bible.

2. That Ishmael's descendants lived in the valley of Kedar according to the bible. - still this doesn't prove that Ishmael is connected to muslims. Remember many other tribes existed in Egypt and surrounding areas.
BTW, ...... Altogether, Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the border of Egypt, as you go toward Asshur. And they lived in hostility toward all their brothers.

Just wondering aloud why the 'near the border of Egypy' ....... between the promised land and Egypt which land exisits there? ????



Hopefully the whole faith-connection is based on more.

[chotadipo]

>
>The prophet Mohammed (PBUH) did NOT “borrow” this from other
>religions. When these verses were revealed, he had never been
>educated on ANY of the other religions as the Arab world was
>then pagan. So how do you explain the accuracy with names etc
>with the old testament? So this is DEFINITELY no coincidence.
>We are one big family. We may not be happy about it but we are
>still the same, though not identical.
>
This is where it wil always be open for discussion. Mohammed (SAW)married a very wealthy lady merchant, Khadija and he used to 'run' alot of errands for her travelling with his uncle to as far as Syria. Many scholars have the opinion that in many of his outings, he must have met and was influenced by the teachings of the different religions and especially the polytheists which he really admonishes in the Quran. There is a school of thought that hold him as a very intelligent man who married the Torah and Injeel with his own revelations to form the Quran and Sunna.

[TeamManager]

>The prophet Mohammed (PBUH) did NOT “borrowEthis from other
>religions. When these verses were revealed, he had never been
>educated on ANY of the other religions as the Arab world was
>then pagan. So how do you explain the accuracy with names etc
>with the old testament? So this is DEFINITELY no coincidence.

WHERE did Mohammed get the information? ...Hahaha! For my security and my well being I will NOT give my answer because i know it might cause a riot that will make the cartoons look like a joke.

BUT I will give you a HINT. When Mohammed received the revealations the first time ....his first thought was right.