[martin77]

Hey TM, tell me something; How are christians supposed to regard the jewish state of Israel? Many of my friends (born again) in Kenya were openly in favour of Israel over the palestinians and painted a black and white picture in regards to the conflict. quite possibly they were influenced by the christian broadcasting stations in Kenya that borrow heavily from the christian right in the United States.

I do know that jews and Israel occuppy a special place in God's scheme of things but it is difficult to reconcille the suffering of the palestinians. Can you look at the faces of the palestinian kids in some refugee camp, terrified of israeli shells exploding around them, and argue that they deserve it because they are palestinians?

harder still is to reconcille that to the image of Jesus sitting on the edge of that well with a samaritan woman (an enemy) and offering to give her the greatest gift a human being can possibly be offered, eternal life. My image of Jesus is that while he recognised worldly political affairs (encouraged payment of taxes) he never allowed himself to be party to the conflicts that were rife in his society. He mingled freely with Romans, samaritans and tax collectors. clearly, He felt His mission was way above those conflicts.

So back to Israel. Can cChristians cheer a slaughter? Admittedly the palestians are responsibe for antrocities as well but to paint them as the bad guys and the Israelis as the good guys is a blatant lie. Is the city of jerusalem, iconic as it is, worth killing and torturing fellow human beings? more so wehn we know that we do not need it for our salvation? that you can live in Mongolia all your life and still be right with God as long as you are Born again in truth and spirit?

[muzalendo]

thats true martin,I am disgusted by the so-called born again christians who behave in a partisan way,think they are the good and everyone else is kaffir and are sooo ignorant.But the saddest thing of all they are not ashamed of their ignorance.I actually dont know which God they worship if he is not the same God who created the rest of the humanity.They remind me of legio maria adherents we used to watch as they beat the hell out of one of them to drive the demons away.God have mercy.

[supermann]

even better,twould be good to direct team manager to the "contemporary issues" section where we dissected this issue properly.it would be interesting to read hiz comment oand thoz of other seriously born again christians here.

i will guarantee you one thing though,opinion whoever objective,will be summarily pro israeli and anti palestinians.

its just the way things are.and the way jews have meddled with this faith.believe or not,even they have admitted to alterations and deliberate ommissions in the bible.

do research.you will be surprised.

anyhow,team manager,the floor iz yours.

[teejay]

>Hey TM, tell me something; How are christians supposed to
>regard the jewish state of Israel? Many of my friends (born
>again) in Kenya were openly in favour of Israel over the
>palestinians and painted a black and white picture in regards
>to the conflict. quite possibly they were influenced by the
>christian broadcasting stations in Kenya that borrow heavily
>from the christian right in the United States.

Martin you remembers there is a post Where I talked of rapture briefly trying to show that it is misrepresented. The basis of most Christian favoring Israel is solely originating from this theory which is also known as futurism. When I return I will try to explain why most Christians still think that Israel is till God’s chosen, which apparently is not the case any more? These people rejected Christ and stuck to their ceremonial worship and therefore forfeited their rightful place in God’s good books and thus their house (Temple) therefore was left desolate unto them. See in the bible where Christ weeps for Jerusalem forewarning of the dangers that loom and hovers over the city because of her harsh criticism against the messiah. Today we have a new Israel which is you and me and that is if we accept Christ. The current Israel is just a nation like any other nation on that face of this earth. For a more detailed information on this Check out THE GREAT CONTROVERY by Ellen G White. It gives incisive details on the origin of Israel’s problems when Emperor Titus raided the city and not one stone was left lying on another.

>I do know that jews and Israel occuppy a special place in
>God's scheme of things but it is difficult to reconcille the
>suffering of the palestinians. Can you look at the faces of
>the palestinian kids in some refugee camp, terrified of
>israeli shells exploding around them, and argue that they
>deserve it because they are palestinians?

This is also another important thing you have raised. The violence in the Middle East. Well, that violence is more than meets they eye. It is not political but very religious in its every nature and it is going to get worse before a self appointed peace broker pops up. The potters and executers of this violence are in Washington receiving directives from their headquarters in Rome, yes you guessed right Vatican the monastery where the self proclaimed leader of Christendom hides. Vatican uses America to evangelize the world. In Vatican terminology when the pope talks of evangelism or crusades he means war on heretics or antipopes. This I intends to show you in my next posting. In the mean time look for a book in the name of SECRET TERRORIST by Bill Hughes Read about world war1 and 2. It will give you an insight some of the problems in the Middle East. Also refer to SUNDAY LAW by Pacific Publications.

>harder still is to reconcille that to the image of Jesus
>sitting on the edge of that well with a samaritan woman (an
>enemy) and offering to give her the greatest gift a human
>being can possibly be offered, eternal life. My image of Jesus
>is that while he recognised worldly political affairs
>(encouraged payment of taxes) he never allowed himself to be
>party to the conflicts that were rife in his society. He
>mingled freely with Romans, samaritans and tax collectors.
>clearly, He felt His mission was way above those conflicts.
>
>So back to Israel. Can cChristians cheer a slaughter?
My take on this question is NO. That is not What the Love that Jesus taught means. But then again what can I say. I have often said that modern Christianity is very wanting. Christianity is no longer guided by the bible but by what is heard from pulpits. Sometimes these pulpits teach profanities thinking that they are doing God a service. Am not surprised that Christians will back slaugheter.

[Coach]

martin77,

> Many of my friends (born
>again) in Kenya were openly in favour of Israel over the
>palestinians and painted a black and white picture in regards
>to the conflict. quite possibly they were influenced by the
>christian broadcasting stations in Kenya that borrow heavily
>from the christian right in the United States.


BINGO! There are two factors that have led to this...

1. Most of the policy makers and lobby groups in Washington are Jews (incl major think-tanks like the well-known American Enterpise Institute - AEI). They have been shaping the American foreign policy for a good 50 years (anyone who knows some history especially the rise of Zionism, the role the Jews of USA especially New York contra the Bolsheviks and the factors that led to the inhumane Balfour declaration knows that this relationship dates further back than 50 years).

2. The Republicans in power are naive, short-sighted, ignorant right wingers who want to "accelerate" and facilitate (or so they think) the return of Jesus Christ by ensuring that the Jews rule the land of Philistine - this has to do with the prophecy.

Put the two together and your recipe is complete.




> Can you look at the faces of
>the palestinian kids in some refugee camp, terrified of
>israeli shells exploding around them, and argue that they
>deserve it because they are palestinians?

Whoever controls the media decides how the conflict is potrayed. Do some homework om who owns the major news corporations in the world and you migth see a connection.



>So back to Israel. Can cChristians cheer a slaughter?
>Admittedly the palestians are responsibe for antrocities as
>well but to paint them as the bad guys and the Israelis as the
>good guys is a blatant lie.

They are actually doing worse than potraying the Palestinians as bad...they are actually potraying them as two waring factions who are in conflict. How can you compare a country with over 200 nuclear warheads and one of the most sophisticated weaponry, army, intelligence force etc with a nation that has no army, no airforce (not even a single fighter jet or helicopter), no proper police force and no control over their borders? How can these two countries be potrayed as two countries in conflict? One is obviously the agressor and the other are victims.



teejay,
>This is also another important thing you have raised. The
>violence in the Middle East. Well, that violence is more than
>meets they eye. It is not political but very religious in its
>every nature and it is going to get worse before a self
>appointed peace broker pops up. The potters and executers of
>this violence are in Washington receiving directives from
>their headquarters in Rome, yes you guessed right Vatican the
>monastery where the self proclaimed leader of Christendom
>hides. Vatican uses America to evangelize the world.

This is paranoia at its best (worst?)! The conflict is purtely territorial...Jews and Muslims have not had any major problems prior to the balfour Declaration. There is a lot of paranoia among Protestants regarding the Vatican, yes they are secretive and the Catholic church has been responsible for many conspiracies and atrocities before but they no longer weild any political prowess anymore. The church and the state got a divorce a long time ago in Europe, only the right wingers in America mention God at all in the west and tehre is no political collaboration with the symbolic state in Rome.

[TeamManager]

>Hey TM, tell me something; How are christians supposed to
>regard the jewish state of Israel?

Just like any other people-group, Christians are to see them as a people in need of knowing the love, grace and salvation that comes from the Lord.

The politics, security, history and suspision issues will never let that region sleep in peace

>Many of my friends (born again) in Kenya were openly in favour of
>Israel over the palestinians and painted a black and white picture
>in regards to the conflict. quite possibly they were influenced by
>the christian broadcasting stations in Kenya that borrow heavily
>from the christian right in the United States.

Bombing the Norfolk hotel in the 70's did not help Palestinians gain friends over in Kenya.
All in all I guess the media has played a big role in informing people ......BUT its more than just being informed/misinformed since our TV stations still broadcast the violence and revenge mission but still people are pro-Israel. I still believe that RELIGION plays the large role. Have you noticed how some people NEVER condemn DARFUR ad the slavery of blacks.

>I do know that jews and Israel occuppy a special place in
>God's scheme of things but it is difficult to reconcille the
>suffering of the palestinians.

Not everything that Israel does has a stamp of approval from God.

>Can you look at the faces of
>the palestinian kids in some refugee camp, terrified of
>israeli shells exploding around them, and argue that they
>deserve it because they are palestinians?

You are right, they don't deserve the suffering.

>He felt His mission was way above those conflicts.

His (Jesus) mission was to save us from our sin and then change us from within.


>So back to Israel. Can cChristians cheer a slaughter?

No. Just the thought that the slaughtered fellows are entering eternity with knowing Christ send shivers down our spine.

>Admittedly the palestians are responsibe for antrocities as
>well but to paint them as the bad guys and the Israelis as the
>good guys is a blatant lie. Is the city of jerusalem, iconic
>as it is, worth killing and torturing fellow human beings?

Jerusalem is a city that will never leave the 'minds' of people ... in a very long time.

>more so wehn we know that we do not need it for our salvation?
>that you can live in Mongolia all your life and still be right
>with God as long as you are Born again in truth and spirit?

@martin,

Who can assure Israel of its security?

[TeamManager]

>its just the way things are.and the way jews have meddled with
>this faith.believe or not,even they have admitted to
>alterations and deliberate ommissions in the bible.
>
>do research.you will be surprised.
>
>anyhow,team manager,the floor iz yours.

Reliability of the OT is a subject I love. Please share some of your 'evidence'

[teejay]

>This is paranoia at its best (worst?)! The conflict is purtely
>territorial...Jews and Muslims have not had any major problems
>prior to the balfour Declaration. There is a lot of paranoia
>among Protestants regarding the Vatican, yes they are
>secretive and the Catholic church has been responsible for
>many conspiracies and atrocities before but they no longer
>weild any political prowess anymore. The church and the state
>got a divorce a long time ago in Europe, only the right
>wingers in America mention God at all in the west and tehre is
>no political collaboration with the symbolic state in Rome.

I dont think this is paranoia as you state coach.IT is true that the church got divorced from state long time ago in Europe but then you are in for another shock. As i speak with you now Vatican and America are once again working behind the scene to forge a relgious union aimed at Uniting the world under the banner of rome- ever had of new world order?.The bible prophacy has clearly revealed that a time is coming again when all will have to pay allegiance to the pope. Refusal to do so will mean inviting death upon one's self. It will be so terrible.

I promised to say these thing in details but have no time at the moment. But soon I will say some thing about it.

[teejay]

Last time I was here I promised to open up some issues about Israel that has bothered and even baffled religious people for some time. And in those my posting I will try to show that Israel is no longer the chosen of God.

We shall now take a look at Israel both Ancient and Modern. But before we do that let us ask ourselves why Israel has and the surrounding environs are highly volatile. First of all there are Palestinian Arabs. To touch them means to stir up the loyalties of powerful allies who control the world’s oil production which can in turn create serious global difficulties in financial markets. There is also Jerusalem revered by pilgrims of three major world religions, Islam, Christianity and Judaism. The devotees of these religions are drawn to hallowed sites such as the Wailing Wall, temple mount and the dolorosa. Modern states of Israel, can no longer claim sole devotion to Jerusalem.

Jews, Christians and Moslems are dispersed world over with most influential world leaders belonging to any of the three religions holding high political and social positions. From then Jerusalem symbolizes a touchstone of faith and unity. Peace in Jerusalem gives them relief while strife and bloodshed has the opposite effect.

For some strange reason however evangelical Christians excel all others in religious devotion with regards the future of Israel and Jerusalem. To them the prophetic book of the bible which contains apocalyptic references cast light on the future of the modern state of Israel. Evangelicals fervently believe that the rebirth of Israel in 1948 and the victory for the Jews in the six day war of 1967 were nothing short of the fulfillment to the end time bible prophecies. The modern state of Israel, they conclude, must play a significant role in the last day events.

Hal Lindsey a popular evangelical writer who authored a bestselling book THE LAST GREAT PLANET EARTH believes that the political restoration of Israel in 1948 is “the most important prophetic sign to herald the era of Christ’s return”.

The big question here is, does the bible actually equate the modern Israel with the spiritual Israel? Can Bible prophecies of a return to Zion to Jewish historical glory find their fulfillment in Israel’s modern history, present & future?

THE BIBLE AND MODERN ISRAEL.
God’s chosen. God call them(Israel)"Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name "Isaiah 45:4, Exodus 4: 22"...Israel is my son, even my firstborn ", Psalm 80:8"Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt, thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it",Hosea 11:1"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt" God intended to fulfill his promises to ancient Israel, but the promises were conditional which the always communicated through the prophets. Jer. 18: 9,10.
Despite repeated call to repentance Ancient Israel did not obey they only transgressed more Hosea 11: 2.God finally set Christ (His son) John 3:16

Jewish leader hardened their hearts to Christ’s message. Bible terminology began to change Jesus was called by the names reserved for Israel. Matt 2:15" And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son",Matt 3:17 "...This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased " Colossians 1:15" Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature", John 15:1" am the true vine... ".The applications of these prophecies also included His followers. Just as Jacob’s descendants were called by his new name, Israel, and claimed his spiritual heritage, so were Christ’s followers. Christ’s followers took His name & His heritage. Gal 3. 29"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise ".

New Testament teaches that New Israel are Christians whether Jews or Gentiles Gal 3: 7"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham ", Rom 2:28,29"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh..But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God".As the Jewish leaders were plotting to kill Christ the reveal their true heritage John 8:39,44"..If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham..Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own,for he is a liar, and the father of it"

In the parable of the vineyard Jesus delivered God’s divorce papers to ancient Israel Mat 21:43"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.".The Bible confirms the identity of the new Israel 1st Pet 2:9"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light"

REBUILDING THE TEMPLE
Those who believe that the modern state of Israel is a fulfillment of end-time prophecies also teach that the temple will be rebuilt & ancient sacrificial services reinstated.

The Jewish temple was indeed God’s sanctuary. Christ called it my house mat 21:13"...My house shall be called the house of prayer...".But in the face of open rejection, Jesus pronounced the awful sentence on the temple,Mat 23:38"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate," from then on the temple was no longer God’s house, but instead believers individually & collective would make of God’s temple. 1st Corinth 3:16"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?", 2nd Corinth 6:16" And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people".
When Christ died on the cross the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to bottom signifying the end of earthly temple services. Mat 27:51"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent". All sacrificial ceremonies of the temple had pointed to the great fulfillment (Christ death). Once the real sacrifice had been offered, there was no more need for the blood of lambs. Validating any animal sacrifices today would mean rejecting Christ as the Messiah.

There you are. Those who still think that Israel today is occupying a special place in God's good books is very mistaken. As Tm says Israel should be regaded as any other nation. A jew today is no more special than an ogiek living in the heart of kenya's forests.If anybody teaches otherwise simply ignore them and know they are the false teachers that the bible has talked about numerous times.