[ATLian]

OK Satjas,

thats the funniest sh*t I've read in a long loose minute. Damn! You really have our religious personalities nailed down. For real if we talked to god, this is exactly how it would go down. Damn, cheers for a good laugh, suddenly this rainy Monday looks a lot better. You forgot to add TeeJay, now that would have been the icing on the cake!

[Coach]

ATLian,
>Coach, a couple of questions. First, when was incest and
>inter-marrying prohibited? It couldn't have been right after
>the twins got their kids, because it is obvious that the kids
>they got (Eve's grand-kids) had to inter-marry too, since
>there was no one else for them to marry. And those kids’ kids
>(Eve's great-grandkids) also had to intermarry, and so on and
>so forth. Which basically means that a lot of incest did
>occur, and not just that one time with Adam and Eve's twins.


Only the first relationship was "incestrous". When the two pairs of kids (Adam and Eve's children) got children, their children (Adam and Eveve's grandchildren) married their cousins and not their brothers/sisters. And their kids married their second cousins and so on.


>Plus like I said earlier, after Noah’s flood, a lot more
>incest had to go on there too for the world to re-populate.
>Was incest re-allowed then, or had it been legal all that
>time?

Accordingto Islamic sources, there were between 70-80 (or even more) people on Noah's Ark. There was no need for incest.



>This brings me to my second question, which is more of
>something else to think about than a question: god has always
>been, currently is, and will always be perfect and sin-free.
>That means everything he has done has always been and will
>always be perfect, and no sins have ever been a part of him.
>Therefore, there is NO WAY god would allow a certain Act X to
>happen now and call it “good”, then later on decree that exact
>same Act X to be a sin. In his infinite wisdom and perfection,
>that Act X has always been, currently is, and will always be a
>sin. e.g.

Well this is not entirely true. God is perfect, He doesn't change and is fault-free but humans change and so does their circumstances. As Muslims, we are forbidden to consume pork, but if there is no alternative, consumption of pork is permitted until other foods are available (then it becomes forbidden). During the time of Caliph Umar, the Shari'a Law was temporarily suspended because there was famine, no way could a thief's hand be cut off when there is hunger across the land and people might be forced to steal food in order to survive.

Sins are not always sins. They can stop being sins depending on the circumstance. For example, killing of another human being is a major sin but if you take someone's life in self-defence (if they were trying to harm/kill you or your family members) then the act of killing is justified. This is also recognised by secular law.




>Going along with this, it is then also impossible for god to
>have allowed incest as a “good” thing or a “non-sin”, then
>later to have declared incest a sin punishable by death.
>Incest, since it is now a sin, must always have been a sin in
>god’s perfect wisdom. So I think it’s impossible for god to
>have allowed Eve’s sons to sleep with their sisters, then
>later banned incest as a mortal sin.

Ok then, then tell us how humanity came from two people then! Ah, but you do not believe that we have come from Adam and Eve do you? This was permitted only to the first generation ONLY. Humans do change with time alone, let alone other divine factors. Our grandmothers and also great grandmothers were married when they were between 11-15 years old only and today that is considered paedophilia.



>I think the above exception for incest is just man’s ways of
>reconciling the question of where the rest of us came from and
>god’s laws against incest.

Would you ratehr believe that we evolved from apes and were not human to begin with? This is the theory that is generally accepted by agnostics in the west.


>>On the onset of Islam, Muslims
>>were allowed to consume alcohol but was later prohibited;
>
>Just wondering, who first allowed it then who later banned it?
>It definitely can’t be god since god would have gotten it
>right the first time. Also, seeing it was allowed then banned,
>is there a chance it can be un-banned again?


When Islam came to Arabia, people were living in a very uncivilised and unGodly society. Tribal wars were very common, infanticide, murders, extortion and general lewdness was the norm. Even slavery was openly practised where human beings were treated like animals by their owners. Islam did not ban everything outright but stamped out the evils of society one by one. Alcohol was consumed a lot by the people and this was also adressed at some stage and the faithful were told to consume in moderation. People walked in mosques drunk and didn't know what they were doing, some even urinated or soiled the clean areas of the mosque. Then verses of the Qur'an were revealed banning all consumption of alcohol.

This doesn't mean that God changed his mind but humanity has been given a chance and we have historical evidence to look back at how the consumption of alcohol has corrupted people throughout generations. There are also a lot of narrations in Qur'an, from the destruction of the people Ad and Thamud, Israelites Exodus from Egypt to the apparent persecution of Jesus (PBUH). All these are historical events that we are to take lesons from and avoid doing the same mistakes done by the previous generations.


>I'll never understand how you can have an all-knowing god and
>free-will. The 2 cannot co-exist, they are mutually exclusive.
>I know we've debated this over and over again, but I still
>cannot understand it.

They do co-exist. God has endowed us with the precious faculty of reason which (with His guidance through His Messengers and words) we can us to distinguish right from wrong. This is why there is heaven and hell, those who abused their freewill by indulging in sinful activity get what they deserve and those who used it wisely get what they deserve.

Just because God is All-Knowing doesn't mean that He decides our destiny. let's say you know that workers from a certain factory go to lunch at noon everyday, your knowledge of what they will do at noon doesn't affect their routine at all. God's knowledge is difficult to explain and even simple analogies like that doesn't do Him justice but explains a bit how it works.

>If from Second One of Minute One of Day One god knew the
>choices I'll make on the morning of July 16th 2052, then I
>have no choice, I have to do what god knows I'll do. If I do
>anything else it will mean that god didn't know what I was
>going to do (which doesn't fit the description of an
>all-knowing god). If I do what he's always known I'll do, then
>I definitely did not decide to do that, it was predestined for
>me (which then doesn't fit the description of us having free
>will).


You are saying is that if you have freewill then God is not All-Knowing or that if He is All-knowing then you do not have freewill. This is not true.

It is predetermination (and not freewill) that contradicts the notion of a Just and All-Knowing God. One can not believe that things are predetermined and then believe that humans will be put in heaven or hell depending on their actions. God can not punish man if the actions were predetermined because this would mean that man would not have made the choices himself. If God had predetermined our course, we would be unable to change it and the notion of heaven/hell would be useless.

If you remove the notion of freewill then the whole concept of religion collapses. Man's freedom is the concept that religion is based upon.

>And what about the times in the bible when god intentionally
>intefered with the free will of certain people, are they to be
>held responsible for what they did under god's inteference
>e.g. Judas betraying Jesus to fulfil god's commandments, or
>god "hardening" Pharaoh's heart so as to make Pharaoh's people
>suffer more.

You have to be careful not to confuse the teachings of Islam with Christianity. In Islam, man is totally in charge of his decisions (unless one is under-age, insane or for some reason incapable of applying the faculty or reason).

In Islam, the soul has two dimensions; one 'animalistic' and 'human' dimension. The human dimension is the one that we are supposed to nurture in order to subdue the selfish animalistic dimension of our souls. The more you try get your SELF under your command the more you are in touch with the Ultimate Reality, God. God hardens the heart of those who turn away from Him and disobey Him and this hurts the person who consciously makes the choice to disobey God buy CHOOSING to do what is sinful.

[TeamManager]

@Satjas,

Considering the fact that you are taking about YOUR god, then the story is kind-of funny.

As I keep on saying, My God is different from yours. One is fake, guess which one?

[satjas]

Hey TM

mine is the real fake one whilst yours is the fake real one.......same difference?

-the paradigm shifter......God's friend.

[TeamManager]

Once there was a man who dared God to speak.

"Burn the bush like you did for Moses, God.
..... and I will follow.
Collapse the walls like you did for Joshua, God.
..... and I will fight.
Still the waves like you did on Galilee, God,
..... and I will listen."

And so the man sat
..... by a bush,
...... near a wall,
...... close to the sea,
and waited for God to speak.

And God heard the man, so God answered.
..... He sent fire, not for a bush, but for a church.
...... He brought down a wall, not of brick, but of sin.
...... He stilled a storm, not of the sea, but of a soul.

And God waited for the man to respond.
And he waited...
And he waited...
And waited.

But because the man was looking at
..... bushes, not hearts;
...... bricks and not lives,
...... seas and not souls,
he decided that God had done nothing.

Finally he looked to God and asked,
"Have you lost your power?"

And God looked at him and said,
"Have you lost your hearing?"


Mark 4:23-24 "If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. And he said unto them, Take heed what you hear: with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given."

[sosodef]

That is all some B>S!!!!!!!!!

[satjas]

Hey ATLian,

>thats the funniest sh*t I've read in a long loose minute.
>Damn! You really have our religious personalities nailed down.
>For real if we talked to god, this is exactly how it would go
>down. Damn, cheers for a good laugh, suddenly this rainy
>Monday looks a lot better. You forgot to add TeeJay, now that
>would have been the icing on the cake!


yeah i forgot teejay......guess what i think i'll start a complete thread with that......read on....

-the paradigm shifter.....God's friend.

[satjas]

Hey TM

could you do the honorable thing and answer the questions I asked about the incest thing? You are keen to post new topics but cannot do the decent thing and answer the questions.

-the paradigm shifter.......God's friend.

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[TeamManager]

>Hey TM
>
>could you do the honorable thing and answer the questions I
>asked about the incest thing? You are keen to post new topics
>but cannot do the decent thing and answer the questions.
>
sorry, which question?

Hope you have not been naughty ....and did something. I will try and give you good advice.

[satjas]

Hey TM
>>
>>could you do the honorable thing and answer the questions I
>>asked about the incest thing? You are keen to post new
>topics
>>but cannot do the decent thing and answer the questions.
>>
>sorry, which question?
>
>Hope you have not been naughty ....and did something. I will
>try and give you good advice.


Ok, this is very interesting.......did she deliver after she became pregnant?? what happened to the kids? Since there was no other than this one family that God created, who did the kids have sex with when they grew up to further multiply? did the brothers have sex with their sisters or mother to get more kids and vis a vis the dad? Does that not condone incest? Please tell us more TM,.......after the pregnancy, then?? Are we not all from the same gene pool? Were adam and eve white or black or yellow? Surely God specified that in the Bible didn't He? Why would God create things so perfect and then blemish them with a fault like disobedience? If this adam chap knew God was the head honcho why would he even dare rebel? free choice? And if this ALL KNOWING God knew that adam was going to disobey, did he expect another option from adam? Or now you are going to say it was the devil who influenced adam and eve and God did not know what plans they were making? so God is afterall not an all knowing God? TM why do you guys keep on mocking God??

I am God, why do you keep on mocking me? You think it would be impossible that I can write to you? If you have faith in what you believe I said 2000 yrs ago why do you find it difficult to believe I can be the one writing to you through satjas??

-the paradigm shifter.....God's friend.