[dudette]

You suffer from selective wishing. 4 mg doxymyphelin, two times a day.

[satjas]

Hey TM,

Could you please enlighten us? Some answers to the questions above would suffice? Or perhaps Teejay could help? keep it short please??

-the paradigm shifter......God's friend

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[Coach]

>We all know that the Holy book is written in parables.. so i
>was wondering was actualy an aple which Eve ate or it was the
>devil with Eve hanyarin, then Eve doin it with Adam that is
>being said as the forbidden fruit...coz afta they did wot they
>did the first thing they discoverd it was that they were
>naked.....plus we know soon afta they were expelled eve gave
>birth to Cain and Abel!!

wahenga,
In Islam, the tree is not the "tree of knowledge" but a metaphor for freedom of choice. They were told to eat from anything in the garden except that particular tree. At that stage, Adam and Eve, being the first people to be created were obviously the first people to have free-will to do what they wanted. There is no burden on the rest of humanity because of their actions (original sin) because that would mean that God is unjust in burdenning humans with the sins of their ancestors. Being expelled from the garden was not a punishment per se because earth was created for them.

In Islam, Sheitani has no real power over humans. The devil just whispers to your soul (making certain things that are wrong seem appealing) and it is upto you to make a conscious choice whether to follow your whims or use your intellect to distinguish between right and wrong. In this instance just like many in human life, Adam and Eve followed their lower selves and did what they were forbidden to do.

They also had two sets of twins, boy-girl and boy-girl. This was the only time siblings were allowed to inter-marry and was later prohibited.


satjas,
Mitochondrial DNA shows that all women from all races have identical stretches of mtDNA and tehrefore havea common maternal ancestor.

[satjas]

Hey Coach,



>Adam and Eve, being the first people to be created were
>obviously the first people to have free-will to do what they
>wanted.

>Adam and Eve followed their lower
>selves and did what they were forbidden to do.

Ok does anyone else notice the oxymoron? free will to do what one wants? Any condition on a free-will renders it not free. freedom is simply just that....unconditional.


>They also had two sets of twins, boy-girl and boy-girl. This
>was the only time siblings were allowed to inter-marry and was
>later prohibited.

first of all who prohibited this? where do we get this information from? And isn't this just another way of saying God fcked up upon realizing the mistake and then gave an order for this not to take place again, thereby putting conditions on free-will??


>satjas,
>Mitochondrial DNA shows that all women from all races have
>identical stretches of mtDNA and tehrefore havea common
>maternal ancestor.

Hmmm......let's see.....let's look deeper....did i not at one time say that everything within an atom is exactly the same, the only variant being the NUMBER of protons, neutrons or electrons per atom? Why then do you keep arguing when i say WE ARE ALL fundamentally the same??? We are all one.....yeah yeah you've heard that one!!

-the paradigm shifter......God's friend.

[Coach]

satjas,

>>Adam and Eve, being the first people to be created were
>>obviously the first people to have free-will to do what they
>>wanted.
>
>>Adam and Eve followed their lower
>>selves and did what they were forbidden to do.
>
>Ok does anyone else notice the oxymoron? free will to do what
>one wants? Any condition on a free-will renders it not free.
>freedom is simply just that....unconditional.


You fail to see the point. They learnt about their free-will by going against what God had told them. That is the point of free-will, it is YOUR choice and not what you have been told. That is why you are held responsible for your actions in a court of law and also in the hereafter.



>>They also had two sets of twins, boy-girl and boy-girl. This
>>was the only time siblings were allowed to inter-marry and
>was
>>later prohibited.
>
>first of all who prohibited this? where do we get this
>information from? And isn't this just another way of saying
>God fcked up upon realizing the mistake and then gave an order
>for this not to take place again, thereby putting conditions
>on free-will??

God prohibited this and you get it from Holy Scripture revealed to Messenegers of God. On the onset of Islam, Muslims were allowed to consume alcohol but was later prohibited; this is through Divine Scripture which you have (using free-will) refused to acknowledge.



>>Mitochondrial DNA shows that all women from all races have
>>identical stretches of mtDNA and tehrefore havea common
>>maternal ancestor.
>
>Hmmm......let's see.....let's look deeper....did i not at one
>time say that everything within an atom is exactly the same,
>the only variant being the NUMBER of protons, neutrons or
>electrons per atom? Why then do you keep arguing when i say WE
>ARE ALL fundamentally the same??? We are all one.....yeah yeah
>you've heard that one!!

I wrote that to adress your previous statements when you said...

"the creation story is just that.....a story, it has no sense in it..."

mtDNA shows that all humans who live on earth have the same gene pool which shows that we came from the same mother (creation).

[satjas]

Hey Coach

>You fail to see the point. They learnt about their free-will
>by going against what God had told them. That is the point of
>free-will, it is YOUR choice and not what you have been told.
>That is why you are held responsible for your actions in a
>court of law and also in the hereafter.

As usual i fail to see the point and you do...let's try again....when one has free-will one is responsible for one's own actions.....in other words, if i climb up a ladder out of my own free will and slip i will hurt myself and cause myself unneccessary pain, NOT if i climb up a ladder out of my own free will and slip and hurt myself the government will ban ladders and possibly have me arrested for expressing my free will.

Free will and any condition of any kind cannot go hand in hand. Free will is not the same as choice.

Choice: you can either do this or that and face the consequences
Free-will: you can do this or that or neither and there will be no consequences whatsoever.

Please Coach do not get confused between the two.....get rid of the smoke to get a clearer picture.


>God prohibited this and you get it from Holy Scripture
>revealed to Messenegers of God.

One sweeping statement and you expect everybody to believe that? The books are not an authority on God. If God so willed God would/could just as easily reveal that stuff to us directly.....or do you think God is incapable of that???

>On the onset of Islam, Muslims
>were allowed to consume alcohol but was later prohibited; this
>is through Divine Scripture which you have (using free-will)
>refused to acknowledge.

Here you shoot urself in the foot again......so this God once approved of alcohol and then realized what a fcking mistake He's made and sent an sms through his messengers which He knew we might not accept since He gave us the free will to accept and reject anything without any problems.

>I wrote that to adress your previous statements when you
>said...
>
>"the creation story is just that.....a story, it has no sense
>in it..."
>
>mtDNA shows that all humans who live on earth have the same
>gene pool which shows that we came from the same mother
>(creation).


and what have i said........can you answer what i just said?

-the paradigm shifter....God's friend.

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[Coach]

satjas,

>As usual i fail to see the point and you do...let's try
>again....when one has free-will one is responsible for one's
>own actions.....in other words, if i climb up a ladder out of
>my own free will and slip i will hurt myself and cause myself
>unneccessary pain, NOT if i climb up a ladder out of my own
>free will and slip and hurt myself the government will ban
>ladders and possibly have me arrested for expressing my free
>will.
>
>Free will and any condition of any kind cannot go hand in
>hand. Free will is not the same as choice.
>
>Choice: you can either do this or that and face the
>consequences
>Free-will: you can do this or that or neither and there will
>be no consequences whatsoever.

>Please Coach do not get confused between the two.....get rid
>of the smoke to get a clearer picture.


It seems that when you have nothing else to say you try to get semantic. This is what the Merriam-Webster Online dictionary says is the definition of FREEWILL...

Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

source: http://www.m-w.com/

Now, according to the English lexicon, I am right! Humans have been given freewill by God and will be held responsible for the choices they make. Kapish?



>
>>God prohibited this and you get it from Holy Scripture
>>revealed to Messenegers of God.
>
>One sweeping statement and you expect everybody to believe
>that? The books are not an authority on God. If God so willed
>God would/could just as easily reveal that stuff to us
>directly.....or do you think God is incapable of that???


I do not anyone to believe anything, you asked and I answered. This is the beauty of freewill - some worship cows, some worship money etc, while some do not worship anything.


>>On the onset of Islam, Muslims
>>were allowed to consume alcohol but was later prohibited;
>this
>>is through Divine Scripture which you have (using free-will)
>>refused to acknowledge.
>
>Here you shoot urself in the foot again......so this God once
>approved of alcohol and then realized what a fcking mistake
>He's made and sent an sms through his messengers which He knew
>we might not accept since He gave us the free will to accept
>and reject anything without any problems.

This is not about 'God making mistakes' but I understand that someone without knowledge of Islam on this particular issue can jump to such a conclusion. Muslims pray at least 5 times a day everyday and worshipping while drinking was proven to be virtually impossible. Muslims could not cope with it and consumption of alcohol was banned. There are many stories in the Qur'an and they are not for entertainment or to think that God makes "mistakes", it is for us to learn from them.



>and what have i said........can you answer what i just said?

I did. You said that creation is just a "story" and I told you that mtDNA says otherwise.

[ATLian]

@ Coach:

>They also had two sets of twins, boy-girl and boy-girl. This
>was the only time siblings were allowed to inter-marry and was
>later prohibited.

Coach, a couple of questions. First, when was incest and inter-marrying prohibited? It couldn't have been right after the twins got their kids, because it is obvious that the kids they got (Eve's grand-kids) had to inter-marry too, since there was no one else for them to marry. And those kids’ kids (Eve's great-grandkids) also had to intermarry, and so on and so forth. Which basically means that a lot of incest did occur, and not just that one time with Adam and Eve's twins.

Plus like I said earlier, after Noah’s flood, a lot more incest had to go on there too for the world to re-populate. Was incest re-allowed then, or had it been legal all that time? The whole deal sounds wrong and ungodly, especially when it comes to Abel's sister/wife. Seeing that Mrs. Abel was still young and had no one else in this world to holler at after Cain killed her husband, there's a chance that she had a Levirate marriage (mother marrying son) with her own son, and therefore she had an incestuous affair with him. I don't see how god could have allowed that.

This brings me to my second question, which is more of something else to think about than a question: god has always been, currently is, and will always be perfect and sin-free. That means everything he has done has always been and will always be perfect, and no sins have ever been a part of him. Therefore, there is NO WAY god would allow a certain Act X to happen now and call it “good”, then later on decree that exact same Act X to be a sin. In his infinite wisdom and perfection, that Act X has always been, currently is, and will always be a sin. e.g. it's impossible for god to say that he'll permit John Doe to have an adulterous binge with his homosexual lover this weekend, then from next Monday he forever bans adultery and homosexuality as mortal sins.

Going along with this, it is then also impossible for god to have allowed incest as a “good” thing or a “non-sin”, then later to have declared incest a sin punishable by death. Incest, since it is now a sin, must always have been a sin in god’s perfect wisdom. So I think it’s impossible for god to have allowed Eve’s sons to sleep with their sisters, then later banned incest as a mortal sin.

I think the above exception for incest is just man’s ways of reconciling the question of where the rest of us came from and god’s laws against incest.



>On the onset of Islam, Muslims
>were allowed to consume alcohol but was later prohibited;

Just wondering, who first allowed it then who later banned it? It definitely can’t be god since god would have gotten it right the first time. Also, seeing it was allowed then banned, is there a chance it can be un-banned again?

[ATLian]

@ Coach again

>Now, according to the English lexicon, I am right! Humans have
>been given freewill by God and will be held responsible for
>the choices they make. Kapish?

I'll never understand how you can have an all-knowing god and free-will. The 2 cannot co-exist, they are mutually exclusive. I know we've debated this over and over again, but I still cannot understand it.

If from Second One of Minute One of Day One god knew the choices I'll make on the morning of July 16th 2052, then I have no choice, I have to do what god knows I'll do. If I do anything else it will mean that god didn't know what I was going to do (which doesn't fit the description of an all-knowing god). If I do what he's always known I'll do, then I definitely did not decide to do that, it was predestined for me (which then doesn't fit the description of us having free will).

And of course this brings about other bigger issues, like if god knows all the evil that will happen then he lets it happen, doesn't that make him culpable?

And what about the times in the bible when god intentionally intefered with the free will of certain people, are they to be held responsible for what they did under god's inteference e.g. Judas betraying Jesus to fulfil god's commandments, or god "hardening" Pharaoh's heart so as to make Pharaoh's people suffer more.

[satjas]

God: sons guys people, i give you complete freewill and freedom of choice

satjas: thanks big guy we need that. Does it mean we can do whatever we do even if it means you don't agree with us

God: yes, otherwise it wouldn't be free will it?

ATLian: thank God, so it means i don't have to believe in you and your existence cos of this freewill or choice you have given me?

God: yes, it is ok not to believe in me, you don't have to, in fact you don't have to do anything!! just be yourself.

TM( butts in) : God, that is incredulous, what is jesus going to say when he hears this? Jesus is the only way

God : Yes Jesus said he's the way because you idiots could not comprehend a larger bigger deity called God and thus he asked you lot to believe in him instead. Actually you TM, Jesus and myself are all one and the same thing.

Coach( shouting!!): that is blasphemy God , what gives you the right to say that!!? You God are separated from your creation, that renders you incapable of making decisions for us.

God: Coach, be calm....now read my lips.....I AM EVERYTHING.

satjas: thank you God for reminding us again

God: Thats my job. yours is to live to your highest ideas about yourself.

TM (storms): There is only one way and that is through Jesus!!!!!! This is not fair God...the only free will is to accept Jesus and attain salvation otherwise its damnation in hell.

God: There is no hell, only a perception

Coach: No!! (turns to TM) only Islam is the way, that is the only freewill that will save us.
anything else is 'haram'...only mohammed(PBUH) knew God, the rest only knew bits and pieces

God: wow you guys seem to know alot more than I do.....but guess what i am the one who gave you guys that very freewill to do that in the first place.

ATLian: Can you prove your existence God?

God: thats like the brain asking the mind whether it exists or not and we both know the mind and the brain both cannot exist without each other, right??

ATlian: hmm.....

Coach: but the kooran says we are not to think anything negative or even pretend to be God

God: then that will not be freewill to do as you please right?

TM: Jesus is the only way ( sobs!)

God: TM, no, there are many ways, that is the way you have choosen because of the freewill i gave you. And you too coach

Coach: This calls for a Jihad against all unbelievers....there is only one way and that is islam.....we are coming for you God!!!!

satjas: freewill, thank God for this freedom of choice to express what i feel.

God: No, i thank you.