[teejay]

>>God’s son would not be an alcoholic and must
>>not taste alcohol.
>
>No-one stated that Jesus was an alcoholic. Just because you
>drink wine doesn't mean you're an alcoholic. Many of my saved
>friends, and some pastors I know, take wine once in a while
>with their food, as well as serve it in their churches. I
>don't think god has any objections to wine, just excessive
>indulgence in wine.

Your save friends drink it because they neither no the word nor what the scriptures say. Haven’t you heard that not every one who says Lord Lord shall enter? Many people hide themselves in the church while their acts are worldly. The fact that some of these people are pastors and earthshaking evangelists does not mean that they are right in partaking of that which of forbidden. Mark you some of this ministers of God teach only what they were taught by their theological college professors. If you follow them blindly then both of you will fall into a ditch. Don’t you know that some of these ministers are doing business and they will not even dare rebuke any unbecoming ways of their congregation, of c course just incase they start running away and they leave with their hefty offerings.

ATlian Christians must not take fermented wine. If they do so, it is on their own individual capacities because they don’t have any divine permission whatsoever on that type of indulgence. Perhaps it is time you invited your drinking saved friends to come over and share with us here at mashada; they may a thing or two out of these forum.

>Also, I don't think these are "unnecesary tantrums", it's just
>a different way of looking at the same situation.

I could agree more. Indeed you way is very strangely different. And you see that’s why you always get it wrong any time you are reading the bible.

>If Christ is exactly as his dad (god) is, then I've no need,
>want or desire for Christ in my life. Secondly, I do study the
>bible, it's one heck of an interesting read.

No my friend Christ is not like god but Like,as, is God. You don’t need to follow god,but God. Kwa Nakuomba uweze kuvuka sakafu kwa mweno wa aste aste na Kujiunga na upande ushindao wakiti wote.

[ATLian]

>Your save friends drink it because they neither no the word
>nor what the scriptures say.

TeeJay,

the interesting thing is even my saved pals have their own intepretations of the same bible in which they claim it's OK for them to drink. Plus they also claim to be divinely inspired when intepreting it, so they also insist they are right. I guess this is why there are N+1 million sects out there, since believers can't even agree on what their god is saying. So my question is, how do you know your stance is the correct one?



>No my friend Christ is not like god but Like,as, is God. You
>don’t need to follow god,but God. Kwa Nakuomba uweze kuvuka
>sakafu kwa mweno wa aste aste na Kujiunga na upande ushindao
>wakiti wote.

My Swa is kinda useless, what's "mweno wa aste aste"? Cheers for the invite, lakini as shocking as this may be to you, I'm actually quite happy on my god-less side, experiencing the freedom available only to those that aren't tied down by religious dogmas.



>Indeed you way is very strangely
>different. And you see that’s why you always get it wrong any
>time you are reading the bible.

The way I see it, it's the bible apologists who get it wrong when they read the bible. They cannot reconcile some of the things in the bible with their definition of god, so they develop a new way of reading the bible which always exonerates god, and which tries to intepret things in a way that always paints god in a positive light, no matter how negative the things he has done are.

That's why if you google info about Herod killing all first born boys, you'll see that all sites agree that killing innocent kids is bila any question or doubt evil. But when you google god killing all first borns in Egypt, these same authors suddenly don't see it as evil, it becomes god working in his mysterious ways, and try put a positive spin on it. Let me ask you - do you think god killing innocent Egyptian kids was good or evil?

The day you can read the bible and see good for good and evil for evil regardless of who the perpetrator is, then (in my opinion) you will finally know the bible. If you keep (mis)intepreting the evils and seeing them as good only because it's god doing them, then you will never fully understand the bible...

[milanya]

I really enjoyed reading the DaVinci code and it made me sit down and question some aspects of my Christian faith. Without even delving into the supposed historical and factual inaccuracies teh book is purported to have, I can say why I think some of the thinking is flawed. Did Jesus marry Mary Magdalene, i think not, why? I dont know I cant prove or disprove it. Teh bible gives the impression that he did not and I believe it. Unless someone altered it but that's another story. The book claims that the reason the bible was altered in regards to Mary Magdalene ,is because society was largely patriachal and they didnt want to elevate a woman to that status. My dispute is, yes society at large has been very patriachal, but if u look at the Catholic church, they went to such great lengths to elevate Mary to an almost dem-god status. Some Catholics worship and adore , or as they say "venerate" Mary even more than they do directly to God. Now, why would a church go to such great lengths to preserve their "manliness" but at the same time elevate another woman to such great heights. That seems somewhat conflicting to me. Just a thought

Life's not a garden so don't be a hoe

[zerobato]

AS AN ATHEIST,DO YOU BELIEVE THERE IS HEAVEN?

[ATLian]

>AS AN ATHEIST,DO YOU BELIEVE THERE IS HEAVEN?

@ Zeraboto:

Ofcourse not. If I believed in a heaven I'd have to believe there's a god in there, ama? I think the concept of this beautiful place where we'll live for eternity praising and worshipping god daily is a bunch of crap, and it's a man made thing to give man hope in life after death.

[teejay]

>the interesting thing is even my saved pals have their own
>intepretations of the same bible in which they claim it's OK
>for them to drink. Plus they also claim to be divinely
>inspired when intepreting it, so they also insist they are
>right. I guess this is why there are N+1 million sects out
>there, since believers can't even agree on what their god is
>saying. So my question is, how do you know your stance is the
>correct one?

But ATlian, don’t you brother dear know that even Satan is a master of the bible. I have seen copy paste lots of time from the bible even rubbished my thoughts by saying that I seem to think its contents are only my preserve. I fail to see how you’ve gone without noticing how satan quotes the scriptures with ease. Assuming that He was your friend of wine guzzling then my I’d say you are the perfect devil’s adovacate.

>My Cheers
>for the invite, lakini as shocking as this may be to you, I'M
>ACTUALLY QUITE HAPPY ON MY GOD-LESS SIDE, experiencing the
>freedom available only to those that aren't tied down by
>religious dogmas.

Well, Have it your way. The word is only for whosoever shall accept, so they may be delivered.

>The way I see it, it's the bible apologists who get it wrong
>when they read the bible. They cannot reconcile some of the
>things in the bible with their definition of god, so they
>develop a new way of reading the bible which always exonerates
>god, and which tries to intepret things in a way that always
>paints god in a positive light, no matter how negative the
>things he has done are.
>
>That's why if you google info about Herod killing all first
>born boys, you'll see that all sites agree that killing
>innocent kids is bila any question or doubt evil. But when you
>google god killing all first borns in Egypt, these same
>authors suddenly don't see it as evil, it becomes god working
>in his mysterious ways, and try put a positive spin on it. Let
>me ask you - do you think god killing innocent Egyptian kids
>was good or evil?

You need to know that if you continue reading that way you will always get it wrong. Don’t you know that God was passing his judgment upon Mizriam on that day? What is evil about judgment, more when it passed against offenders? God will do it again at the second coming of Christ. If you read carefully you will find that in exodus there is a symbolic representation of Jacob as God’s firstborn. And Mizriam was hurting them. Mizriam even refused to let them go worship God. We all know that revenge is God’s and when He passed His Judgment on Mizriam he took out all the firstborns. Judgment is God’s prerogative.And trying to compare Herod and God is the most demeaning thing for one to say about his Creator who he has already denied by saying he is Godless.Herod and Mizriam are one thing. They are both trying to stop God. Have you even had any man succeed anywhere to that. Herod decides to that by destrying God's creation. Let me ask you one thing between the creator and the subject who is answerable to the other?

>The day you can read the bible and see good for good and evil
>for evil regardless of who the perpetrator is, then (in my
>opinion) you will finally know the bible. If you keep
>(mis)intepreting the evils and seeing them as good only
>because it's god doing them, then you will never fully
>understand the bible.

ATlian is mad at God because He has the authority destroy His property. Am surprised. ATlian you know I have no right to stop from destroying anything that you have made. You also don’t have any right to critise God when He punishes the outlaws.

You don’t understand God because you don’t want to Atlian. And its unfortunate.

[ATLian]

>But ATlian, don’t you brother dear know that even Satan is a
>master of the bible …. I fail to see how
>you’ve gone without noticing how satan quotes the scriptures
>with ease.

TeeJay,

So what if Satan quotes the scriptures? Even if he does quote the scriptures, he is saying exactly what’s in the scriptures. So the point is, if something that’s quoted is BAD, it’s not because Satan quoted it, it’s because that thing is BAD. If Satan quotes the Bible saying that god accepted a human sacrifice, then that thing is bad, regardless of who quoted it.



>Don’t you know that God was passing
>his judgment upon Mizriam on that day? What is evil about
>judgment, more when it passed against offenders?

I asked you “do you think god killing innocent Egyptian kids was good or evil?” You totally ignored that question. That’s what I’d like answered.

You then say god was killing “offenders”. Honestly, what did that Egyptian kid who was born 30 seconds before the angel of death struck do to deserve to die? What was his offence? God was so angry he even killed the first born males of every BEAST in Egypt, from a random scorpion chilling in the desert to some crocodiles basking in the Nile. What did they do wrong? Why don’t you just admit that god does kill innocent people and animals, and he punished Peter for what Paul did?



>ATlian is mad at God because He has the authority destroy His
>property.

Actually I’m not. I’m just against you Christians saying that god is good and that he only punishes the bad and protects his innocents, especially children who he loves dearly – and then when god kills innocent children, you quickly say that it’s his prerogative to kill whoever he wishes since he created them, even these children who he loves dearly, and we shouldn’t question him for doing it. WTF?

This thing of always exonerating god even when he does an obviously f*cked up thing and offering contradicting views on god just to make him look good based on the current circumstances is what I’m against. I think killing innocent kids is wrong, especially as a punishment for their father’s sins. If even man with his limited knowledge knows that and his laws hold that, then I’d assume that god in his infinite knowledge should know that too.

I actually feel sorry for believers because they have to defend god no matter how f*cked up his actions are. I’m sure even you wonder what the hell god was thinking when he did some things in the Bible, but you are too scared to question in case a ball of fire consumes you. That’s the freedom that comes about from not believing – I can call a spade a spade, and not a big spoon.



>You also
>don’t have any right to critise God when He punishes the
>outlaws.

What about when he punishes innocent kids? Do I then have a right to criticize him?

[zerobato]

@ATlian
I wish i could join your school of thought. i have become religious of late and my interest is in the concept of Godfrom an african perspective.kina teejay seem to be more christian than the brits and others who evangelized them. look at miracle man Deya, churning out babies more than there god would manage. infact, nowadays we have reversed roles where africans are evangelizing europeans. all this is becoz of greed that is very much entrenched in churches than neva before. the church has been used to oppress the ignorant people why promisimg them heaven. i can quote someone who said the "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth, but not with the minerals in it".

[teejay]

>So what if Satan quotes the scriptures? Even if he does quote
>the scriptures, he is saying exactly what’s in the scriptures.
>So the point is, if something that’s quoted is BAD, it’s not
>because Satan quoted it, it’s because that thing is BAD. If
>Satan quotes the Bible saying that god accepted a human
>sacrifice, then that thing is bad, regardless of who quoted
>it.

Thank you for your illustration. So perfect. I think now you know that even your drunk saved friends are wrong.

>I asked you “do you think god killing innocent Egyptian kids
>was good or evil?” You totally ignored that question. That’s
>what I’d like answered.
>You then say god was killing “offenders”. Honestly, what did
>that Egyptian kid who was born 30 seconds before the angel of
>death struck do to deserve to die? What was his offence? God
>was so angry he even killed the first born males of every
>BEAST in Egypt, from a random scorpion chilling in the desert
>to some crocodiles basking in the Nile. What did they do
>wrong? Why don’t you just admit that god does kill innocent
>people and animals, and he punished Peter for what Paul did?

I will put it to you this way ATlian. You are not God and neither is HE you. God is all knowing and before he took that action of Judging Mizriam and her gods he must have foreseen the future of her Children(they would follow suit in their parent’s ways). Deut 12:12. Just incase you did not get what I was saying earlier, let me say this if you read the bible very well you will find that vengeance is mine(God’s), thou says the Lord. God was avenging his chosen Firstborn child for the troubles that Jacob had gone through in the hands of Pharaoh’s terrible reign. You know very well that mkuki kwa nguruwe, kwa mwanadamu kichungu. Think about Jacob having to get rid of the children coz of Pharaoh’s paranoia that some day they will be outnumbered. Why do you feel pain for Mizriam when the Lord is doing the same to them? You find it easier for your tongue to curse God for his righteous ways than to distaste Egypt’s evil dids against Israel.

Then again I will take you forward to the ten Commandments. Exodus 20:3,4,5 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me... Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth…Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.. And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.” Then go to Exodus 12:12 Where God says, “I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.”

After reading that then you can definitely see that God is greater all other gods. Remember that Pharaoh had earlier on asked Moses arrogantly.. “Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.” Exodus 5:2 By killing all the firstborns in Egypt the Lord revealed himself as God of all creation and that no other god supercedes Him. In that way He God judged the false gods of Egypt. The statue was unable to raise Pharaoh’s child and therefore proved worthless and gives no life. Instead it is made by human hands. Is like God telling Egypt lets see if your gods can stand against ME.

>Actually I’m not. I’m just against you Christians saying that
>god is good and that he only punishes the bad and protects his
>innocents, especially children who he loves dearly – and then
>when god kills innocent children, you quickly say that it’s
>his prerogative to kill whoever he wishes since he created
>them, even these children who he loves dearly, and we
>shouldn’t question him for doing it. WTF?

God loves not only Children but also you and I. For that Christ came.

>This thing of always exonerating god even when he does an
>obviously f*cked up thing and offering contradicting views on
>god just to make him look good based on the current
>circumstances is what I’m against. I think killing innocent
>kids is wrong, especially as a punishment for their father’s
>sins. If even man with his limited knowledge knows that and
>his laws hold that, then I’d assume that god in his infinite
>knowledge should know that too.

Unfortunately that way you and I think is so different from God that you always end up thinking God is silly while in the actual sense you who is who is exhibiting idiocy. Nobody is exonerating God we only say what his word says.

>I actually feel sorry for believers because they have to
>defend god no matter how f*cked up his actions are. I’m sure
>even you wonder what the hell god was thinking when he did
>some things in the Bible, but you are too scared to question
>in case a ball of fire consumes you. That’s the freedom that
>comes about from not believing – I can call a spade a spade,
>and not a big spoon.

I tell you one thing. Jesus came and freed me long time ago I don’t know what you mean by saying am scared yet am a free person. You should feel sorry for yourself ATlian and not pity those who have made a good choice of following Christ. After all you are Godless. This means you stand alone.

>What about when he punishes innocent kids? Do I then have a
>right to criticize him?

Atlian you don’t understand the bible that’s one thing I have noticed about you. That’s why you always question God’s wisdom. I once told you that reading copying and pasting does you no good. These are matters of the Spirit. If you really look and such with sincerity in the name of the Lord you will be granted the light.

[lilac]

mad meru

Where in the bible does it state Mary magdalene was a prosititute?

Some propably women hating dude comes up with this #### and we all buy it for decades.

NI YESU PEKEE