[teejay]

Is it a myth or a prophetic vision.I can describe it as a secretive harvesting of the people who believe in Christ. Most people who talk about it always quote Mathew 24:39-54 as the evidence that this event will surely commence. This teaching has even inspired the making of the movie "left behind."

Many a sunday to sunday on the pulpits Rapture has been taught about to temples packed with amused congragations. To others it is intriguing and to others it is so scary that it influences their desicion to embrace salvation. Time has come for us to see what the bible says about this most talked about event. Personally to me I could describe it in this phrase. It is an amusing impossibility. It does not exist.

[TeamManager]

>..... quote Mathew 24:39-54

please confirm the version that you are using cause I cant find some verse in my Bibles and even in http://bible.gospelcom.net/

Personally most people I have listened to use 1 Thes 4:16-17 (below) to show that believers who will be alive when the Lord returns will be 'caught up together in the clouds'
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thes 4:16-17

>This teaching has even inspired the making of the movie
>"left behind."

From what I have read in the books and watched the movie ...all I can deduce is that the author says that the rupture occurs before the great tribulation.

>To others it is intriguing and to others it is so scary
>that it influences their desicion to embrace salvation.

Just wondering aloud....can someone become a Christian without acknowlegding their sins and the need for a saviour AND THEN accepting Jesus as that saviour and LORD? To me, if the jump Christ's redeemtion act on calavary.....they will just remain religious Christians.

>Time has come for us to see what the bible says about
>this most talked about event. Personally to me I could
>describe it in this phrase. It is an amusing
>impossibility. It does not exist.

I wish you you said more about 'what the Bible says' instead of your phrase 'It does not exist'

[teejay]

>please confirm the version that you are using cause I cant
>find some verse in my Bibles and even in
>http://bible.gospelcom.net/

TO be presice its Mat 24:40-41 and also luke 17:34-36

>Personally most people I have listened to use 1 Thes 4:16-17
>(below) to show that believers who will be alive when the Lord
>returns will be 'caught up together in the clouds'
>For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud
>command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet
>call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After
>that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up
>together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
>And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thes 4:16-17

You see what you have said above actaully refutes the rapture theory. You can see that in those passages you have quoted there is no any element of secracy as the advocates or rapture theory seem to emphasize. They show an event that is impossible to miss; an even that is endowed with surprise and spectacle.

>From what I have read in the books and watched the movie
>...all I can deduce is that the author says that the rupture
>occurs before the great tribulation.

Which is also wrong. Acording to the bible Christians are taken to heaven after tribulation and not before as the rapture theory seem to say. The rapture theology shows that Christ rescues his people secretly from the great tribulation and the deceptive reign of the antichrist.

Jesus himself spoke of great time of trouble before his return for his people. Mathew 24:21,29,30

24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

In Reveltion 3:10 Christ promised his church that "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth"

John Himself depicts the church emerging vicyorious from the great tribulation. "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" Rev 7:14 And John further adds "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands" Rev 7:9 This is contrary to the notiton that these are believers are jews who convert during the great tribulation.

>Just wondering aloud....can someone become a Christian without
>acknowlegding their sins and the need for a saviour AND THEN
>accepting Jesus as that saviour and LORD?

NO TM. Unfortunatley lots and lots of people think that this is the case. Have you also wondered why the church is very much at peace with the world yet we are told by Paul that all that shall leave justly shall suffer affliction from the world.The Church has stopped leaving like the bride of the most high and is rather enticed by the things of this world and therefore is fornicating with the ruler of this world,Satan. The other time we talked at length about modesty we found that if the inside is not good then the outside shall speak volumes of the rotten inside.The inside can only be righteous if Christ is indwelling within, and the outside will in turn reflect christ. I hope we all learnt one thing from the other.

>To me, if the jump
>Christ's redeemtion act on calavary.....they will just remain
>religious Christians.

True that. As matter of fact empty shells.

>I wish you you said more about 'what the Bible says' instead
>of your phrase 'It does not exist'

Please see my next post here under about rapture theology.

[TeamManager]

Lets go back to step one. Start from the beginning ... whats the rapture theory? Let move step by step.

BTW, is the 2nd coming and the rapture the same or different events?

[teejay]

>Lets go back to step one. Start from the beginning ... whats
>the rapture theory? Let move step by step.

Yes

>BTW, is the 2nd coming and the rapture the same or different
>events?

Rapture is not equal to the second coming of Christ.

[teejay]

As much as we may be trying not hurt our Catholic brothers, we must also not that the truth must be upheld at all times without compromise and conformity. It is with this in mind that I like Luther will try my best to explain a word or two as you did request TM.

Now Rapture theology has can be traced right from within the walls of Vatican where the General of the Jesuits sits. The research I have done shows that in 1580 a Jesuit by the name Francisco Ribera was ordered by his superiors to develop a new method of prophetic interpretation that would shift the protestant focus on the papacy as the Anti-Christ. You realise that this is also the time that protestant reformation was ongoing. The persecution of bible believing Christians was rampant.

As the affliction was administered to Christians they also increased in numbers. There it became apparent to the instigators of violence to change tact. What they had failed to gain by Violence they sought to gain by artifice. Ribera placed the fulfillment of revelation largely in future hence the Theology of "FUTURISM". In his theory the antichrist was some singular diabolical power that would emerge to reign during the last seven years preceding the visible return of Christ. Christians therefore need not fear the antichrist coz they will be secretly raptured to heaven before the antichrist's reign.

His work however was be catapulted into prominence 300 years later. The Spirit of reformation had overshadowed it. Francisco was not the only Jesuit working on the FUTURISM theory. Another Chilean Jesuit Manuel de Lacunza in his book “The coming of Messiah in glory and majesty" promoted His theory.

In 1827 a catholic apostolic church, Church driven by speaking in tongues- actually inaudible incantations, pastor, Edward Irving found and translated The book on Futurism by De Lacunza. During one of his church sessions an utterance by one member proclaimed the theory of secret rapture. And the news spread wide, out and about.

These amazing eventualities did not stop there. One miss Margaret MacDonald – a young girl in 1830 had a revelation concerning the end time, in which the doctrine of the secret rapture was reaffirmed. It is here that John Darby the founder of Plymouth Brethren Church became intrigued by the revelation and decided to pay the young girl a visit. John took her ideas and modified them and became the self proclaimed author of FUTURISM. He made several trips to America to promote his futuristic views of prophecy, which were enthusiastically received. When he died n 1874 his views lived on!

Here it the most feared revelation. In 1909 The oxford university press published the SCOFIELD REFERENCE BIBLE. A closer inspection this bible reveals that Colporteurs I. Scofield used John DarbyÂ’s futuristic Ideals in his explanatory notes. His bibles sold throughout the North America esp. in the Bible belt, where unsuspecting Protestants had not idea they were promoting a Jesuit ploy.

In 1970 Hal Lindsay took some of the same theory and used them to write his bestselling BOOK THE LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH. Lindsay by the way is the Guy who predicted that the “great snatch”(another term for rapture) would take place in 1981. When it failed he offered no apologies fro hundreds of people who he had misled.

In 1990 the duo of Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins took the same theory and used it to market their twelve part book series and feature film LEFT BEHIND. Tragically what was once a Jesuit theory is now an accepted truth by many Protestants.

This truth here is juts but a Jesuitical maneuver to get rid of the bible as stated in their oath, which am still looking. I have so far managed to get a few bits. But they will surely be helpful in understanding the prophecy. I will also show here that all the protestant churches in America are currently under the Romanism was predicted in REV 13:14. And that since that time it is now considered hate speech in America to identify papacy as the Antichrist. President Bush during his campaigns recently discovered that even associating with those who do so could spell political doom. Now that is how far Jesuitism has infected The American union with its evil cancer called Romanism. They hide behind the façade of a church calling itself the holy Roman Catholic Church.

Let those who read and earnestly study the word of God know that the time is here. And the beast is here. The antichrist is here.
TM have a pleasnt reading and anybody else who wish to be enlightened. Please let me have any material you thing could help in telling of this evil that is now hovering upon the four corners of the world.

God bless.

[sleeze]

RAPTURE??
I dont know ANYTHING about the rapture theory.. I ONLY read my bible mostly after a hard day's work. Its very UPLIFTING...(excuse the pun)

>TO be precise its Mat 24:40-41 and also luke 17:34-36

This is what my Bible says MtÂ*24:40-41
"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

>They show an event that is
>impossible to miss; an even that is endowed with surprise and
>spectacle.

This passage does not ascribe to the event being "spectacular".. in its simplicity it only says one will be taken and another left...dhaaaaa

quantum physics is a study that looks at the behaviour of atoms..in their constant motion.. we do not see the motions with our eyes neither do we rule out their properties..

Is it too hard for God to give properties of vision to one person and limit that vision to others? dhaaaaaa and dhaaaaaa

>Acording to the bible Christians are
>taken to heaven after tribulation and not before as the
>rapture theory seem to say.

Frankly I dont care...about its timing... either way bottom line is at one point in time non-christians will be left behind and that should be our main concern..unless you want to challenge that fact...triple dhaaaaaa

>Jesus himself spoke of great time of trouble before his return
>for his people. Mathew 24:21,29,30

No one is disputing this....dhaaa...

>Have you also wondered why the church is very
>much at peace with the world yet we are told by Paul that all
>that shall leave justly shall suffer affliction from the
>world.

This I agree....The full culmination of such affiliction shall be the great tribulation.. ( which is preceeded by the apostate -falling away first)) state of the church..)but even then the gospel will be preached.. yea even it troublesome times...dhaaaaa!!!! cant u see the state of the church now??? dhaaaaa?????

>The Church has stopped leaving like the bride of the
>most high and is rather enticed by the things of this world
>and therefore is fornicating with the ruler of this
>world,Satan.

Could not agree with you more...incidentally did you know the Roman Church IS THE WEALTHIEST organised institution in the world.. no i mean literally.. wealthy...


>we found that if the inside is not good then the outside shall
>speak volumes of the rotten inside.

Jesus was critical both about the outside as well as he was about the inside of a person..

why wash a cup and fill it with wine that has been obtained by blood lies and violence? dhaaaaa????

Botton LINE- we surrender our eternal will to him who dwells in us..so that in the fulfillment of time.. the same spirit that dwelt in him will raise as up.. to eternal life..

[TeamManager]

I will take time and study what you have written.

All I am certain about is:-

1 Thessalonians 4:17 teaches the fact of the Rapture: ". . .shall be caught up together with them. . ." "Rapture" comes from the Latin translation of the Greek (harpazõ) in this verse and is accurately translated into English by "caught up" (NASB).

Currently a debate swirls around when this takes place relative to the Tribulation.

Most of what you wrote is new to me and therefore I will give my comments later. BTW, I am equally against teaching in the catholic church that started from their tradition rather than the BIBLE.

[teejay]

>I will take time and study what you have written.
>All I am certain about is:-
>
>1 Thessalonians 4:17 teaches the fact of the Rapture: ". .
>.shall be caught up together with them. . ." "Rapture" comes
>from the Latin translation of the Greek (harpazõ) in this
>verse and is accurately translated into English by "caught up"
>(NASB).

Your defination of the word rapture or raptus(Latin)-siezed or caried awayis absoluteley correct. But then the movies and the book left behind and seem to suggest another thing all together. The opening scene of that movies shows something like a wife and husband enjoying a plane cruise when suddenly the husband disappears in thin air leaving the wife,his clothes and other earthly belongings in the plane. The scene is replicated onwards. This is the rapture for those who made the movie and the Jesuits. We have already seen why the Jesuits want it that way. And that is why to them the Christians are carried away before tribulation(their rapture-sceretive), a teaching which of course is in conflict with the biblical writings which say that God's people will come out of the tribulation victorious.

The passages you have wrote above shows that the event will not be secretive as the one in the movie.

>Currently a debate swirls around when this takes place
>relative to the Tribulation.
>
>Most of what you wrote is new to me and therefore I will give
>my comments later. BTW, I am equally against teaching in the
>catholic church that started from their tradition rather than
>the BIBLE.

I am waiting to hear what you come with too. We are learnign from each other as children of the same Father. I have given myself a small assignment on this matter with An aim of finding out who the jesuits are and what is their character and what is their purpose. I will put it all here so that all can read.

[teejay]

>
>RAPTURE??
>I dont know ANYTHING about the rapture theory.. I ONLY read my
>bible mostly after a hard day's work. Its very
>UPLIFTING...(excuse the pun)

You are excused and you are also hereby bodly told to know what the prophecy in that same bible says. It(bible)is uplifting and also warns us in advance. It is high you also take a look at the prophecy.

>This is what my Bible says MtÂ*24:40-41
>"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and
>the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the
>one shall be taken, and the other left."
>>They show an event that is
>>impossible to miss; an even that is endowed with surprise
>and
>>spectacle.
>This passage does not ascribe to the event being
>"spectacular".. in its simplicity it only says one will be
>taken and another left...dhaaaaa
>
>quantum physics is a study that looks at the behaviour of
>atoms..in their constant motion.. we do not see the motions
>with our eyes neither do we rule out their properties..
>
>Is it too hard for God to give properties of vision to one
>person and limit that vision to others? dhaaaaaa and dhaaaaaa

I think you did not get me sleeze. I was commenting on the passage that TM gave out. The one of Thesalonians. You can also read my post on the origin of rapture theology.

>Frankly I dont care...about its timing... either way bottom
>line is at one point in time non-christians will be left
>behind and that should be our main concern..unless you want to
>challenge that fact...triple dhaaaaaa

Once again you have misread me and you guns are firing at the wron person. I am trying to analyze the rapture theology as presented before us by the Jesuit organization. And if you are truely understanding me you'll find that am subjecting their every claims to the biblical tests. Just as we are told to test every spirit that comes in the name of the Lord. And the theology is very wanting as per my finding. I want to be like the Bereans that Paul commended. The bereans always subjected all teachings to test of the scriptures.

You dont need to remind me that sinners will not inherit the heavenly bliss. I know that too well. And what I am doing here is alerting those who are steadfast in adhering to God's call about the very ploy that those sinners have against them. Christ noted in his summons the tricks are so subtle that even the very elect will be decieved. So we christians must talk to one another and learn from one another.

>No one is disputing this....dhaaa...

For once you have concured with me.

>This I agree....The full culmination of such affiliction shall
>be the great tribulation.. ( which is preceeded by the
>apostate -falling away first)) state of the church..)but even
>then the gospel will be preached.. yea even it troublesome
>times...dhaaaaa!!!! cant u see the state of the church now???
>dhaaaaa?????

I do see the state of the church. And in fact to some extent it is good for such things to happen. It shows that the Spirit of God is still at work and is working against any fallacy in the church. The great falling you are talking about began centuries ago with emergence of protestant reformation initiated by God through Martin Luther the brave German frair who sent chill thought halls of Vatican by persistantly rebuking their vain worship of God.

>>The Church has stopped leaving like the bride of the
>>most high and is rather enticed by the things of this world
>>and therefore is fornicating with the ruler of this
>>world,Satan.
>
>Could not agree with you more...incidentally did you know the
>Roman Church IS THE WEALTHIEST organised institution in the
>world.. no i mean literally.. wealthy...

Yeah. That I know very weall. That wealth they got from the drug trade in the far east during they vietnam war through the Jesuits. They also sold indulgence. A doctrine that taught that if one donated money to the catholic coffers thier sins and those of their dead loved ones will be pardoned and freed from purgatory as soon as the coin lands at the bottom of the till! During dark ages they amassed for themsleves the wealth of their victims.

>Jesus was critical both about the outside as well as he was
>about the inside of a person..
>
>why wash a cup and fill it with wine that has been obtained by
>blood lies and violence? dhaaaaa????
>
>Botton LINE- we surrender our eternal will to him who dwells
>in us..so that in the fulfillment of time.. the same spirit
>that dwelt in him will raise as up.. to eternal life..

There is left just a small bit of misunderstanding. Try and read me more profoundly. You will see that me and you are on the same side. That is, Christ is my saviour and my guide I shall not want... you can go on from here. With me you are that much cherished brother.