[teki]

Benny Hinn's long-awaited crusade is on July 22 & 23 2005 at Norwich UK. Don't miss it!

http://teki.ww4.us/Newsletter/viewtopic.php?t=18

For those of you in Europe or can travel, it is worth checking out this crusade. Its going to be awsome!!

[TeamManager]

Pastor Hinn in Nigerian money row

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4619733.stm

Whatever disappointment he felt on the first and second days of the miracle crusade, Hinn kept to himself - but he opened up with anger on the final day.

"Four million dollars down the drain," he shouted into the microphone from the huge rostrum.

He said that he had been assured by the local organising committee that at least six million people would attend the crusade - but the total turnout was only around one million. As a result, he realised that all the mega public address equipment he had flown in from the US was not needed.

[Cookie]

i was watching TIYD before he went to nigeria and when he mentioned that it would cost 4M bucks I knew something was not right. In fact I discussed this with my buddy. thats 350 million Kshs to hold a crusade in africa. I knew he was being ripped off by nigerians.

[teki]

Don't believe everything you read on the BBC website. The BBC which is funded by ordinary folks licensing fees made a mockery of this when they screened a blashemous Jerry Springer show. With nearly 60,000 calls jamming their switchboard in protest, they still went ahead.

Do you think the BBC or its writers can present the truth about the gospel?

[TeamManager]

>Don't believe everything you read on the BBC website.
>Do you think the BBC or its writers can present the truth
>about the gospel?

I don't believe everything I read on BBC or the Internet .....but all they did was to quote him.

BTW, whats the main reason for God performing miracles and signs/wonders? (I mean the answer in the Bible ....and not what some people do as advertisement)

[ATLian]

>BTW, whats the main reason for God performing miracles and
>signs/wonders? (I mean the answer in the Bible ....and not
>what some people do as advertisement)


To show us he's the real deal.

BTW TM, I have a swali about god and miracles. When the plagues were beginning in Egypt, many of the miracles god did thru Moses were replicated by the Pharaohs guys through their gods. When god (thru Moses) turned his rod into a snake, the Pharaoh's sorcerers (thru their gods) also turned their rods into snakes. When Moses brought about frogs, the Pharaoh's guys also made frogs.

When Moses turned ALL the water in Egypt into blood, and the sorcerers also turned water into blood. BTW, this is another bible discrepancy since if Moses had already turned ALL the water in Egypt into blood, where did the water the sorcerers turned into blood come from? But I digress ... the Egyptian's gods were finally defeated when they couldn't create lice.

That has always puzzled me, does that mean that there were other gods who just were not as powerful as god? Yaani they could only do miracles from A - G unlike god who can do from A - Z? I'd be interested in your explanation. And since the devil isn't mentioned anywhere in the story, let's leave him out of the equation...

[jarabuon]

>>Don't believe everything you read on the BBC website.
>>Do you think the BBC or its writers can present the truth
>>about the gospel?
>
>I don't believe everything I read on BBC or the Internet
>.....but all they did was to quote him.

I think teki mean't to say that benny hinn was misquoted by the press, money has been poured to finish him etc etc

[TeamManager]

>BTW TM, I have a swali about god and miracles. When the
>plagues were beginning in Egypt, many of the miracles
>god did thru Moses were replicated by the Pharaohs guys
>through their gods. When god (thru Moses) turned his rod
>into a snake, the Pharaoh's sorcerers (thru their gods)
>also turned their rods into snakes. When Moses brought
>about frogs, the Pharaoh's guys also made frogs.

@ATLian
I got this from the internet, maybe it will give you some answers.

why God did suffer the Egyptian magicians to borrow power from the devil to invalidate, if possible, those miracles which his servant wrought by his Divine power, the following reasons may be given for it:

1. It was necessary that these magicians should be suffered to exert the utmost of their power against Moses, in order to clear him from the imputation of magic or sorcery; for as the notion of such an extraordinary art was very rife, not only among the Egyptians, but all other nations, if they had not entered into this strenuous competition with him, and been at length overcome by him, both the Hebrews and the Egyptians would have been apter to have attributed all his miracles to his skill in magic, than to the Divine power.

"2. It was necessary, in order to confirm the faith of the wavering and desponding Israelites, by making them see the difference between Moses acting by the power of God, and the sorcerers by that of Satan.

"3. It was necessary, in order to preserve them afterwards from being seduced by any false miracles from the true worship of God."

To these a fourth reason may be added: God permitted this in mercy to the Egyptians, that they might see that the gods in whom they trusted were utterly incapable of saving them; that they could not undo or counteract one of the plagues sent on them by the power of Jehovah; the whole of their influence extending only to some superficial imitations of the genuine miracles wrought by Moses in the name of the true God. By these means it is natural to conclude that many of the Egyptians, and perhaps several of the servants of Pharaoh, were cured of their idolatry; though the king himself hardened his heart against the evidences which God brought before his eyes. Thus God is known by his judgments: for in every operation of his hand his design is to enlighten the minds of men, to bring them from false dependences to trust in himself alone; that, being saved from error and sin, they may become wise, holy, and happy. When his judgments are abroad in the earth, the inhabitants learn righteousness.


>When Moses turned ALL the water in Egypt into blood, and >the sorcerers also turned water into blood. BTW, this is
>another bible discrepancy since if Moses had already
>turned ALL the water in Egypt into blood, where did the
>water the sorcerers turned into blood come from? But I
>digress ... the Egyptian's gods were finally defeated
>when they couldn't create lice.

V24 clearly shows that NOT all water in Egypt had been turned bloody BUT the Nile was already turned bloody


>That has always puzzled me, does that mean that there
>were other gods who just were not as powerful as god?
> ... I'd be interested in your explanation. And since
>the devil isn't mentioned anywhere in the story, let's
>leave him out of the equation...

A study of ancient magician practices in Egypt might assit in understanding .......but since you want the devil left out....Ok, continue to stay puzzled.

[ATLian]

>why God did suffer the Egyptian magicians to borrow power from
>the devil to invalidate

>A study of ancient magician practices in Egypt might assit in
>understanding .......but since you want the devil left
>out....Ok, continue to stay puzzled.

TM, there is no evidence of the devil being involved. Bringing him in without evidence is like bringing in any of the Egyptian gods and saying it was they who caused the miracles. Also, we know that there is no way god can be in cahoots with the devil. There is no way they can run a joint project together since god cannot be in the presence of evil. So that definitely rules out the devil as part of the plan.



>1. It was necessary that these magicians should be suffered to
>exert the utmost of their power against Moses, in order to
>clear him from the imputation of magic or sorcery; for as the
>notion of such an extraordinary art was very rife, not only
>among the Egyptians, but all other nations,

This sounds credible – until you realize that in the Bible god performs or has his people perform thousands of miracles. Of all those thousands of miracles performed, your guy above tries to say that only four miracles deserved a counter-miracle so as to clear them of any links to sorcery or magic. Clearly, that cannot hold water in a rational setting.



>"2. It was necessary, in order to confirm the faith of the
>wavering and desponding Israelites, by making them see the
>difference between Moses acting by the power of God, and the
>sorcerers by that of Satan.

If god did his miracles with a 100% success rate and the Egyptian sorcerers did theirs with a 100% failure rate, then it would be obvious who is the real god. There would be no doubt. However, since god was 100%, and the Egyptian gods were 40% (they replicated 4 of 10 miracles), then that means that even the Egyptian gods can be correct at times. Why would god leave such a big margin, one that gives serious validity to the existence of other gods?

[ATLian]

>To these a fourth reason may be added: God permitted this in
>mercy to the Egyptians, that they might see that the gods in
>whom they trusted were utterly incapable of saving them;

Correction TM – god did not permit any mercy to the Egyptians. The Egyptian people did not have a say in letting the Israelites go, it was all up to the Pharaoh. God, bila mercy, afflicted terrible punishment on hundreds of thousands of innocent Egyptians, including children who did not even know what a slave was. They were tormented by lice, flies, boils, locusts, etc. The poor Egyptians lost all their livestock, their main means of livelihood, because of things beyond their control. Finally god committed mass genocide by killing the first born male of every family in Egypt, which means that every Egytian family lost someone.

Can you imagine god killing the 1st born of every family in Kenya because Moi won't give North Eastern province it's independence. Would you justify that and praise that god as a just god? After all this chaos, did god actually expect that these Egyptians could worship him? There’s no way I’d worship a god who could do all those things to me, my family and my people. No way!



> though the king himself hardened
>his heart against the evidences which God brought before his
>eyes.

Correction again – Pharaoh did not harden his own heart, god hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

Exodus 7: 3 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart

Very early on Pharaoh realized that he was dealing with some serious power, and he decided to let the Israelites go. But over and over again god hardened Pharaoh’s heart so he could torment him some more.

This brings up 2 points:

1) Did Pharaoh have free will? No, because god interfered with his free will

2) Was Pharaoh culpable for what happened to the Egyptians? Again no, since it was god who stopped Pharaoh from doing what could have saved the Egyptians



>V24 clearly shows that NOT all water in Egypt had been turned
>bloody BUT the Nile was already turned bloody

That's why it is a contradiction, since verse 19 shows that god changed all the water in Egypt into blood, from rivers, lakes, ponds to even the water the Egyptians had stored in their houses in stone and wooden vessels.

Exodus 7:19 And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.

So thats an obvious contradiction, since for 7 days there should have been no water for the sorcerers to turn into blood.

That's not the only contradiction in the plagues, there are many regarding Egyptian livestock. In the 5th plague, all the livestock the Egyptians owned (cattle, horses, sheep, oxen, donkeys) were killed by god. But over the next many plagues, these dead livestock are now alive and suffering the same plagues as the Egyptians. In the 5th plague both Egyptians and their dead/alive livestock got boils. In the next plague (hail stones) all Egyptian cattle that was out in the fields got killed (again) by the hail. When all first borns died, even the first borns of the Egyptian’s livestock died for the 4th time. Finally, when the Egyptians pursued the Israelites across the Red Sea, they used chariots, which were drawn by horses that are meant to have been dead, so when the sea ungulfed them, these horses died for the 5th time...

Clearly there’s a major contradiction here, if you can't see it, then your faith has really blinded you. And why should god torment an innocent lamb or calf for something the Pharaoh has done? I guess it's all in keeping with god's theory of punishing innocent people for the sins of others.