[Coach]

teejay,

>The where is your belief in God's messengers if it takes you
>ages to talk about things of faith and belief for you to
>accept the word of God. A tree produces fruits after its own
>kind. You are a product of Muhammad' s arabic teachings. I
>guess he also argued that way. I do know something about him
>after all. He is not God's messenger.


Maybe you preach Christianity as a full time job but my friend I generally surf this site for about 15 minutes a couple of days, that's if I get the time. What I said was meant to show you that this issue cannot be discussed through a few posts but needs a deep discussion. If you are patient enough then we can get started and discuss this issue, open a thread and we shall start discussing the concept of Jesus PBUH as God and the notion of the trinity and where it originated.

I know that you as a Christian today does not accept Muhammad PBUH as God's Messenger so your last remark didn't come as a suprise. I'm indeed a person who follows the teachings of Muhammad PBUH and his followers have debated with Jews and Christians even over 1400 years ago, so I'll try and do my part according to my knowledge if you intitiate a thread where we can discuss these issues.




>Your statment above does not think that am ignorant my dear. A
>true Christian teaches what is in the book of god and not his
>own thoughts. There if you reject that then you are also not a
>muslim. I made to undesrtand that muslims believe wholly in
>Jesus.


I don't reject the whole Bible but parts that are not compatible with a montheistic religion. The notion of the trinity was also added later on by some translators and Muslims totally reject this. Never the less, Muslims believe in Jesus PBUH but not the as God or son of God but as a messenger of God.




>What homework it is easy to read the mind of a muslim at the
>very time they speak just like christ read the minds of the
>srcibes. The answer lies with their very won questions.


So now you have supernatural powers and can read other people's minds? You can makea living out of fortune telling and clairvoyance. Make use of it and predict wars, maladies and other sisnister things so that we can be safer :-)





>Which christians are muslims with I wonder. I fchrist is not
>son fo GOd then you simply mean he is not born of a viirgin as
>you had earlier own said. Christians dont say that.ONly
>muslims do.


Adam PBUH, the first human being was NOT born like other human beings, shall we say he is "son of God" too by using your logic? Jesus PBUH is described in the Qur'an as Adam PBUH because they were did not come to the world like other people have (Jesus had one parent and Adam had NO parents). This does NOT mean that they are sons of God inany way just beacuse they were not conceived of two parents.



>What were they doing at the vatican? With even Kenyan ones
>pleadging goodwill messeges to bendict's papacy.


The Pope is the leader of over 1 000 000 000 people in the world, he has more followers that any president or king in the world and is respected by all faiths even though they don't agree with his doctrines. This is called respect for other people's religion!

[teejay]

>Maybe you preach Christianity as a full time job but my friend
>I generally surf this site for about 15 minutes a couple of
>days, that's if I get the time. What I said was meant to show
>you that this issue cannot be discussed through a few posts
>but needs a deep discussion. If you are patient enough then we
>can get started and discuss this issue, open a thread and we
>shall start discussing the concept of Jesus PBUH as God and
>the notion of the trinity and where it originated.

>I know that you as a Christian today does not accept Muhammad
>PBUH as God's Messenger so your last remark didn't come as a
>suprise. I'm indeed a person who follows the teachings of
>Muhammad PBUH and his followers have debated with Jews and
>Christians even over 1400 years ago, so I'll try and do my
>part according to my knowledge if you intitiate a thread where
>we can discuss these issues.

Coach there is nothing to discuss more than what am telling you. What I say to you is what is written in the bible. If for 1400 years you are still in that discussion I cannot help you. Beside your mastery of the bible is almost unmatched. When you grew up you ate, slept and even talked Muhammad, but I teejay came to accept Christ and got saved. Even if I am to indulge you, do you think it will yield a profit? No for your human teachings have hardened your heart like the scribes and for 1400 long years you have not loosened a bit. Forget about a different thread other than this. This where you read it, learn it and accept. If not am not responsible if your soul is not delivered. After all God has allowed us al to make choices. IT is up to you to make a wise choice. Step forth like Nicodemus and know more about the rebirth. Leap on trees of obstacles and get your share like Zakayo the short guy. Follow him who is the son of God and you shall never die. Through me the gracious savior has been Kind enough not to pass you. So heed and yield. Muhammad died and was buried but Christ lives. When he see one soul dismissing salvation he is saddened for the loss of even one soul to him is to much to bear.

>I don't reject the whole Bible but parts that are not
>compatible with a montheistic religion. The notion of the
>trinity was also added later on by some translators and
>Muslims totally reject this. Never the less, Muslims believe
>in Jesus PBUH but not the as God or son of God but as a
>messenger of God.

Christ (son) talk s of Holy Spirit and he talks of God (father) and then He says the Him Christ and the father are one. How difficult is that for you to believe. I tell you that it is useless to accept the word of God piecemeal. Either believe it wholly or quit soliciting for attention from Christians by claiming that we (Muslims and Christians) share certain similar aspects of religious teachings of the word of God. Allah is your god Yaweh the great I AM is my God.

>So now you have supernatural powers and can read other
>people's minds? You can makea living out of fortune telling
>and clairvoyance. Make use of it and predict wars, maladies
>and other sisnister things so that we can be safer :-)

Even if I had that Gift I would not offer it for sale. God cannot be bought with evil money. A man whence demanded of the healing powers that the apostle Peter had at a price, only to be rebuked. His thoughts were evil like you are telling me. He saw this Gift as an avenue to making riches for himself.

>Adam PBUH, the first human being was NOT born like other human
>beings, shall we say he is "son of God" too by using your
>logic? Jesus PBUH is described in the Qur'an as Adam PBUH
>because they were did not come to the world like other people
>have (Jesus had one parent and Adam had NO parents). This does
>NOT mean that they are sons of God inany way just beacuse they
>were not conceived of two parents.

Indeed the first Adam was son of God and the second Adam(Christ) too is son of God. In the first Adam sin came to this world but in the second Adam Salvation is been given to the world by the grace of God.

Ideally speaking Christ was not of this earth and therefore had no earthly parent as such. But teaching by the fact that is Christ the one who must Judge the world in the end of time, He was born of a woman so that He took human flesh to become like one of us and go through the same experience we humans are going through and he conquered the world. No person whatsoever will have any excuse on that day. The only phrase left for them to say will be... “Lord your judgment is true and just.”

>The Pope is the leader of over 1 000 000 000 people in the
>world, he has more followers that any president or king in the
>world and is respected by all faiths even though they don't
>agree with his doctrines. This is called respect for other
>people's religion!

I like that kind of respect. Some religion, even as am talking to you allow, people to bury live infants momentarily in bizarre rituals. What respect do you think they deserve yet they disrespect human dignity? You see, that ritual is also a different doctrine. Shall we also say the pope approves of it. I repeat myself again Coach. If only out knew what you are saying about the pope then you would be perplexed at the magnitude of your word. It is written that the whole world will wonder after the beast. Do some studies on the book of Revelation begin with 11, 12, and 13. Those are the chapters that deal more with Vatican’s Character over the world. The pope is a secular leader (a king himself) hiding behind the priestly gown to conceal his real Identity. Remember what Napoleon said. He (pope) insists on being master sovereign over the sovereign. Is it therefore any wonder that even Leaders of the world follow him and through that subtle snare, Papacy has been able to endear itself to many people of the world and lately Muslims. I predict that the number you have printed above will be surpassed in the near future.
Coach the only common thing between people who’s religion don’t agree is politics. And if they do agree religiously one of them must surmount the other. Muslims were therefore at the Vatican in their capacity as political diplomats and not because of respect of the other religion. Besides the Vatican is currently practicing religious tolerance, which before long will change for worse, with Muslims lending that much needed sycophantic and bigoted help to the calls of papacy.

[teejay]

>Man of Satan eh? You sure know nothing about him do you?

I need to know nothing about him any way. He is only important as far passing exams is concerned

>The issue of Jesus PBUh being the son of God and the issue of
>trinity can take us ages to discuss. I don't have time at the
>moment and even if we discuss it, we'd still be where we
>started (you believeing that he is a son of God and me
>believing taht he is the Messenger of God).

So then where is your belief in him? You know, Christ said that God is spirit and He must be worshipped in spirit. The spirit of the Lord says that Christ is God’s son and that He and the father are one. Muslims say nay he is not God’s son. This then means they are calling Christ and God’s spirit a lair. How then can a perpetual lair like Christ be a messenger of God Like these Muslims purport? Christ ... “if you have seen me you have seen the father”. Does it mean that Father (God) is also a liar? Allah is not God lets not be cheated. Allah is something else.

I believe I’m without no doubt absolutely correct to say that Muslims believe in the Torah (the First five books of the bible-which is where most of their sharia laws have been derived) and also the Injeel (Gospel – which contains the birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ back to heaven). The Injeel says Christ is son of God, But Mohammad in trying in his “wisdom” thought this was abstruse and decided to re write the it ending up with the Quran (Apparently after the supposed appearance of Angel Gabriel.), which he claimed was a divine book. Having traced Muhammad’s history since his early childhood I find him nowhere in that life accepting Christ’s salvation but only his own religion Islam. In fact as Ismail K Poonawal a renown Islamic scholar states the quran regards the teaching of any messengers that were, before(including Christ) Muhammad as outdated. This statement is at logger heads with Christ’s word that says... “what I say to you now I say unto all.” Meaning that the word of God is for people of all ages and it is therefore impossible to claim it outdated.

>Again, you show your ignorance of Islamic history and the man
>behind it all. Muhammad PBUH taught about his fellow Messenger
>Jesus PBUH and taught people that he was a Messenger like
>himself. he never uttered a negative thing about Jesus PBUH
>and any Muslim who says anything bad about Jesus PBUH is NOT
>considered to be a Muslim. But, we reject the things that some
>Christians later attributed to him vis a vis calling him God
>(or son God depending on who you ask).

Christ Himself said he was son of God. And King David said somewhere in the book of Palms upon being filled by the spirit... “today I have made you my son” This was not for David but He was talking about Christ. In another place David says.... you will not let the body of your Holy one rot” David died and was buried but Christ rose to Claim heavenly Glory. He went to be with the father who sent him. Even after Christ is baptized a voice descended from heaven stating clearly that.... “This is my beloved son...” This was God himself saying this. It was said so that the people who there at the time would believe. But muslims reject that- God’s own voice (in your own plain words coach).Now you want to call God a Lair? Allah is truly not The God of Abraham, Isaac Jacob and Ishmael. He (allah) is that Jinn that appeared to Mohammad in the desert as an angel of light. I said it and I will say it again. A tree bears after its own kind. If latter day Muslims say Christ was not God’s son, then Muhammad also said so long ago. I know these phrases are a great sin to the ears of muslims and fatwa can be declared on me at any time, but I have to say it.

In the book of Mathew 4:3 even satan while tempting Christ acknowledges that He (Christ) is son of God. It is worthy to note that Satan is not under any circumstance a Christian of any sort. Properly speaking he is Anti Christ and by extension Anti God and anything that is godly. That is not the only scene where the forces of evil bestow honor upon Christ as the son of God. After the Calming the storms of the sea Christ and his followers landed on the other side only to be met by demon possessed men. The demons vividly recognized him and they asked..... “What have you to do with us son of God” Mat 8:9 Again demons are not Christians.

>There are many predictions Muhammad PBUH made that have come
>true, do your homework before you speak but if you are
>extremely lethargic ask me and I shall lend you a hand.

Even if he did predict a thing it will be through some Jinn’s (genie) help. Even so I would not mind going through his prophesy. Go on. Splash them on the web. Arabic world is rich in Jinn stories. I believe that, it was a jinn rather than an angel of God that appeared to Muhammad. They say that Jinns are demons – according to Islamic folklore others are good and others are bad. But we know that demons are demons no good demon for they speak for their master and not for God.

In a verbatim literature recording Muhammad says this of the genies.... 'IT is revealed to me that a band of jinn listened to God's revelations and said: "We have heard a wondrous Koran giving guidance to the right path. We believed in it and shall henceforth serve none besides Our Lord. He (exalted be the glory of our Lord!) has taken no consort, nor has He begotten any children. The Blaspheming One among us has uttered a wanton falsehood against God, although we had supposed no man or jinnee could tell of Him what is untrue.".... Source:-The Koran.

Demons actually acknowledge the existence of God even in the bible, but not at any one minute or time will they leave cohesively and harmoniously co exist with God’s light as Muhammad insinuates here from one of his evil revelations. The genies here are actually the ones denying the father & son relationship that we Christians acknowledge. It is therefore absolutely right for one to say that Muhammad actually accepted the teachings of demons rather than believe the teaching of the Christians he interacted with and be saved and baptized like the Ethiopian man the Apostle Philip preached to.

Mohammad’s history shows that the orphaned boy actually met and listened to Christian’s teachings but never to be saved. Even the Koran is in agreement with that (of course it does not say that), but we know that Mohammad was not saved. Salvation comes to believers and he Mohammad according to history never embraced Christ wholly. Were it so then he would have been born again for we know that unless a man be born again he does not see the kingdom of heaven. It is therefore right to say that Muhammad refused to accept Christ and by extension the truth. Therefore, upon such people... “God sends strong delusion to make them believe what is false so that all maybe condemned who did not believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2Thes 2:11-12. While retreating to the cave to meditate upon God knows what, the delusion came inform of an angel.

>If you have spoeken to Muslims (as you claim) then you
>wouldn't be asking me these questions. Muslims are with
>Christians, but not those who say that Jesus PBUH is God or
>His son. Just like you are not with Catholics on many of their
>teachings, Muslims are not with you on this particular issue.

But they are never with us Christians (bible believing) on any issue any way. At least Catholics, even if their teachings are perverted, know Christ is God’s Son. And you Christians out there listen to me. If you say Christ is not God’s son then you are lost like these Muslims and the Genies. And like Coach says you are with them and not with Christ. Know that there are two Christ’s ,The Muslim one who is not God’s son and our Savior Christ ,who is the true Son of God that dies for us and Arabs too - He who is a victor forever. I must admit human are just hard to deal with. Even demons see Christ and recognize him while humans want to be logically convinced. Well Our work in the Lord’s vineyard is to do his will and make sure that in us other people see Christ through our actions. It is upon the listeners if they are so willing do the rest and have their souls closer to Christ for in him there is eternity. When we are done with them who prefer politics we must shake off the dust of our shoes and move on.

A true Christian knows that..... “God so loved the world, that he gave his only son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 anything that says otherwise is worth a toss I the garbage. By the way Coach am quoting from Injeel (Gospel).

>>I guess by bowing at the feet of the Roman pontiff " holy
>I don't wan to know about the beef you have with Catholics but
>I'd like to illumiinform you that Muslims don't take orders
>from the Vatican. Muslims also don't believe in the pope being
>"chosen by God" or anything of that sort. Get your facts right
>mister because you seem to be mixing things up.


David If you are listening. Please save this thread safely somewhere. We will see who is mixing things up when that time comes. The Middle East is already tiring of endless wars. They will be soon so conditioned that they will accept a peacemaker without a second thought. Many Muslims are already saying that Papa Ratzi should continue the unfinished work of initiating peace that Karol left behind -Viva il papa well how about that. That even muslims believe that the pope can unite the world!!! Islam will bow to the pope who is seen as the person who could possibly bring peace in this world. We know Christ came with a message of peace and salvation and he was instead humiliated and a killed. What peace do you think that a mere man can offer to Humans who have rejected the very author of that peace?

Coach the events am talking about were foreseen long ago and they must come to pass. I guess Muhammad did not even tell his followers about this eeh! The bible has predicted one event after another with meticulous precision. And all have and will come to pass.


>Majority of the Christians in the world are Catholics and you
>think they believe in a distorted religion. Interesting!

When you see color red, you don’t say its black, you call it red. Christians are supposed to be Christ’s followers and they are those follow Christ’s every teaching. This they do by reading from the bible. The bible says Thou shalt work on six days and on the seventh day ye shall rest in honor of the Sabbath (read red).... but this church (catholic) which says that the pope is above the church counter say.... by my divine power I change the Sabbath to sun day (read black).... and the whole world bows in reverent (read amen)!

Another verse says that... “there is one God and one mediator(Christ)...” but the Catholics say.... “Ask Mary (Who is dead) to mediate for them to Christ” Do I think they believe in distorted teachings or am I stating a fact? Moreover, Coach you yourself say that you don’t believe the pope is appointed of God. That in itself shows that you find fault in their system and that am absolutely right to say what am saying about this majority sect. There are so many other misguided teachings in this church which I will not mention for the obvious reasons.

The Christian religion is not about numbers but the heart.I was iluminated to hear you say that word majority. Like I have always said. There are people who are escorting others to heaven and others still attend the church services just to warm the seats for the one who will soon replace them. Christianity is not being judged by the numbers like I hear Muslims boasts of numbers and its fast expansion. Due to its burning and profound truths many people don’t like it. And what has the Catholic Church done? It has compromised the truth and instead is teaching for traditions of men. Mark 7 downward will show you what it is like to put aside God’s teachings for man’s traditions. As a result many people love to go the Catholic Church. You think because people are tagged Christians and they appear massive in numbers gives them an automatic inheritance of God’s Kingdom? Think again. Christ in his own words say that “not all who call him Lord including Muslims (who only accept piece meal truths about him) shall enter His Kingdom....” They shall go to Him saying but Lord I was a preacher and we cast demons out of people using your name and shall tell then depart thee from me for thou art a wicked servant!” Mark you this is not a blanket statement on the Catholic Church For I know that in that church God has his people there and when the time comes he will lift then out of the catholic Babylon.

Again the only thing I find interesting here is you. You prefer to believe that catholics in their masses are all Christians only to make 180 degrees turn to deny the pope as chosen of God. If Muslims don’t believe that pope is not sent by God then why do you say that you (Muslims) are with the majority Christians? These inconsistencies in Islam amuse me.

>The Muslims who attended did it out of respect, the same way
>I'd attend the funeral of my Christian or Jew neighbour, or
>their weddings, confirmations and other occassions for that
>matter. Catholicsalso have a seat for power which they
>recognise, it is easier for Muslims to hold dialogue with
>them. This is comparable to countries, a nation like Cuba
>might be "evil" in some people's eyes but they have a seat in
>the UN whereas a nation like Somalia has no govt and therefore
>no voice. This is just a simple analogy that I hope will
>elucidate things a tard for you.

I DO like your explanation. Really I do. You say that Catholics have a seat of Power! How marvelous. God sure does work in interesting ways. Without knowing the magnitude of your sentiments on this word power seat you just supported what is written in the book of revelation. It is this power that Crushed Muslims in the crusade eras. Crusades were wars fought on behalf of papal interest. It is this power that is driving America to hurt the world- when bush says he going to work closely with the pope The pope does not ask him to change his heart but engage him in world political dialogues. It is this power that created the same UN you talk about. Do a good homework and you will find out that since this same UN body was created it has failed miserably in its “peacekeeping” mission. Presently there are numerous wars on the face of this earth. Now the inconsistent Muslims say it easier to dialogue with Catholic. Of cause, as far as “peace” is concerned Islam and muslims will always rush to Vatican for dialogue if they are not busy declaring holy wars and sticking explosives on their bodies.

Another thing, to say that Muslims attended that burial of Pope in their capacity as good neighbors will be big lie. We all know that the pope have has been trying to woe the Muslims and other religions to join with Christian. Vatican’s ambition at the moment is to unite all religions. In doing that the Vatican is going to be the sole headquarters of the world religions Muslims notwithstanding and since the pope’s word is infallible punishment will be invoked every time his word is abused. The more the call for religious unity the more that power of the pope grows.

>I read them as much as you read the Qur'an.

Yes but the difference between me and you is that while you believe in the Injeel and the Torah, I believe none of the coherent text script of the Koran. And therefore the question of you reading the bible just as much as I read the Koran is an empty talk. Coming to think of it. The quran has some few teachings it’s founder borrowed from Christianity. If one is to say that translation of the bible has diluted is contents to meaningless writings, then the Koran is as bad as the bible. Muhammad must have written whatever he learnt from the Christians in Arabic only after translating them from Hebrew. And if so then he did wrong. No wonder muslims end up with strange teachings.

>To everyone people of the world, the Crusaders were
>Christians. people know that they were Catholics but keep in
>mind that they represent the majority of Christians in the
>world. They were so wicked that they destroyed even trees and
>killed animals on their way to Jerusalem. They were so shocked
>by the kindness of Saladin that some started saying that he
>must have been Christian because a Muslim couldn't be that
>nice. Shows you the level of ignorance among the Crusaders.

Yes but the difference between me and you is that while you believe in the Injeel and the Torah, I believe none of the coherent text script of the Koran. And therefore the question of you reading the bible just as much as I read the Koran is an empty talk. Coming to think of it. The quran has some few teachings it’s founder borrowed from Christianity. If one is to say that translation of the bible has diluted is contents to meaningless writings, then the Koran is as bad as the bible. Muhammad must have written whatever he learnt from the Christians in Arabic only after translating them from Hebrew. And if so then he did wrong. No wonder muslims end up with strange teachings.

>Maybe this view suits you as a Protestant but reality says
>otherwise. In reality, Catholics ae Chrsitians who make up
>about 60% of Christians worldwide (roughly over a billion
>people today).

If you say so then I would say that in reality those Muslims who deny Christ make up a substantial mass of human sea (esp. in Mecca during that once a year trip or is it in a lifetime) in the Islam world and they are very much Muslims. Need I mention the militant ones (Hisbollah, Taliban, Hamas and what have you) who think that by blowing themselves to smithereens and plunging planes into buildings while chanting Alahu Akbar, they obtain direct passage to heavenly bliss? And if you say otherwise then am also at liberty to say that your view suits you as whatever faction you represent in the Moslem world.

>I gave a clear example of the dangers of translating Holy
>Books. This is why the Qur'an is never translated in that
>manner.

After reading about the History of the Koran am not so sure about that statement. In fact I think you are really ignorant of The history of the Koran. Ask and I will prepare a good doc for you about the Koran writing of the Koran.

>Where did you see Muslims who question the miraculous birth of
>Jesus PBUH? If they do, please inform them that they aren't
>Muslims because they are going against the Qur'an which speaks
>a lot about the Holy Virgin Mary and the miraculous birth of
>Jesus PBUH. There is even a WHOLE chapter (chapter 19) of the
>Qur'an called Mary. Muslims have A LOT OF respect for Mary and
>is said to be among the women of Paeadise. Here are some verse
>that speak of the miraculous birth of Jesus PBUH...
>
>CHAPTER 3: 45-47
>
>45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad
>tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the
>son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter
>and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
>
>46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in
>maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
>
>
>47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man
>hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He
>willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it,
>'Be,' and it is!
>
>
>Share these verses with the "so called" Muslims who deny
>Jesus' PBUH miraculous birth.

I wish I could but I can’t. Because these fellas including you will not accept that He was to come and save this world. They will not accept there is no any other way but Christ. You know how argumentative Muslims can be. At times, even being confrontational. You believe Christ is not God’s son and they disbelieve his miraculous birth.

The bottom line is that Muhammad is not God’s messenger. And just because the quran which is his word says afew truths mingle with a couple lies does not mean that he came from God. Even Satan often quoted from the scripture when he tempted Christ in the wilderness. That did not mean that he was a messenger of God. Like I’ve said these critics, you deny are not Muslims are very much a part of you world just as you really believe Catholics are Christians.

[Coach]

teejay,

>When you
>grew up you ate, slept and even talked Muhammad, but I teejay
>came to accept Christ and got saved. Even if I am to indulge
>you, do you think it will yield a profit? No for your human
>teachings have hardened your heart like the scribes and for
>1400 long years you have not loosened a bit. Forget about a
>different thread other than this. This where you read it,
>learn it and accept. If not am not responsible if your soul is
>not delivered. After all God has allowed us al to make
>choices. IT is up to you to make a wise choice. Step forth
>like Nicodemus and know more about the rebirth. Leap on trees
>of obstacles and get your share like Zakayo the short guy.
>Follow him who is the son of God and you shall never die.
>Through me the gracious savior has been Kind enough not to
>pass you. So heed and yield. Muhammad died and was buried but
>Christ lives. When he see one soul dismissing salvation he is
>saddened for the loss of even one soul to him is to much to
>bear.


There is a verse in the Qur'an that says..."You have your religion and I have mine". This is said when you come to a point where you tell the person that you are not EVER going to compromise your faith. I would like to take this opportunity to clear something up with you; I'm not in need of "slavation" from you for I'm CONTENT with what I have, as much as and even more than you are content with what you have. Now, since I'm not here trying to convert you but to discuss on a fora, I advice you to do the same. And please spare me the patronising remarks "Step forth...heed and yeid" because I'm not here to be preached to.




>Christ (son) talk s of Holy Spirit and he talks of God
>(father) and then He says the Him Christ and the father are
>one. How difficult is that for you to believe. I tell you that
>it is useless to accept the word of God piecemeal. Either
>believe it wholly or quit soliciting for attention from
>Christians by claiming that we (Muslims and Christians) share
>certain similar aspects of religious teachings of the word of
>God. Allah is your god Yaweh the great I AM is my God.

Jesus PBUH himseld did NOT consider himself God, why would you? Those who believe that Jesus is God state the following verse to support their claim John 10:30, John 17:22, John 1:1, John 14:9 etc. But how do you explain the Bible denying the notion of trinity...

"Why callest me good? There is none good but ONE, that is GOD" (Matthew 19:17 )

". . .for my Father is greater than I. . ." (John 14:28 )
- this shows you that Jesus is NOT God because he sees God as GREATER!


"My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)
- If he is God, why is he saying that the doctrine is NOT HIS? Did he send himself?

"O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt." (Matthew 26:39 )
- If he is God, who is this "father" he is crying to?

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46 )
- Again, if he is God, who is he crying to when in despair?? Himself??


Do you know about how the notion of trinity begun? Do you know about Flavius Valerius Constantius (c. 285-337 AD)? Do you know the Nicean creed? The Athanasius Creed? Please explain to us.







>Indeed the first Adam was son of God and the second
>Adam(Christ) too is son of God. In the first Adam sin came to
>this world but in the second Adam Salvation is been given to
>the world by the grace of God.


God knew that Adam (PBUH) would eat from the forbidden tree and what came to the world was NOT sin but CHOICE. That was the first time ever that a human being made a CHOICE. This is for us to learn from, not that we are carrying anything ridiculous like the "original sin" but we are made aware through the stroy of Adam PBUH that we havea choice. That our choices determines our destiny.





>Ideally speaking Christ was not of this earth and therefore
>had no earthly parent as such.

Isn't Mary the mother of Jesus? The whole world thinks that, care to share with us why you say he had no earthly parent? I know he had no PATERNAL parent and that distinguishes him, but it is false to say he had no "earthly" parent.


But teaching by the fact that
>is Christ the one who must Judge the world in the end of time,
>He was born of a woman so that He took human flesh to become
>like one of us and go through the same experience we humans
>are going through and he conquered the world. No person
>whatsoever will have any excuse on that day. The only phrase
>left for them to say will be... “Lord your judgment is true
>and just.”

If Jesus is God, why did he take on human form to "experience what humasn are going through"? Are you insinuating that God needed tp practical experience to know what humand go through? How could teh creator not know this?





For the rest of your arguments, I care less what you think of the Pope. I know what the Protestants think of him but that is a "Christian" problem.

But let me help your deluded mind telling you that the Catholics aer not in any sort of conspiracy to do evil against the "real christians" which I assume you think are part of. The Catholics spearheaded the most brutal attack on Muslims from other faiths through the Crusade. Their scholars are also responsible for the intolerance we see today through their writings from the 16th century where they depicted Islam as evil. The irony is, Saladin treated the Catholics so well that they said he must have been Christian.


I think you are also confused about the view of JESUS among the Muslims. Muslims believe that Jesus PBUH was sent to HIS peopel, the Jews. He did not spread his word outside where he lived and was sent as a saviour for them. Muslims believe in Jesus, Moses, Abraham PBUt and all the Messengers before them. They came in this order Moses, Jesus and then Muhammad PBUT. The Jews took the word of the Torah and claimed it to be the saviour, they rejected the Gospel. The Christians took the Torah and Gospel and took Jesus to be the saviour. The Muslims accepted the Torah, the Gospel and accept Muhammad PBUH as the Messenger to mankind. he is not seen as a saviour per se, but merely a Messenger. I hope this clarifies things somewhat for you.

>Demons actually acknowledge the existence of God even in the
>bible, but not at any one minute or time will they leave
>cohesively and harmoniously co exist with God’s light as
>Muhammad insinuates here from one of his evil revelations. The
>genies here are actually the ones denying the father & son
>relationship that we Christians acknowledge. It is therefore
>absolutely right for one to say that Muhammad actually
>accepted the teachings of demons rather than believe the
>teaching of the Christians he interacted with and be saved and
>baptized like the Ethiopian man the Apostle Philip preached
>to.

This is a petty position generally held by the less endowed idnividuals amongst the occidental Christians. The wittier ones try to undermine teh character of the Prophet or other doctrines.

Muslims believes that humans are not the only creatures created by God. There are animals fish etc and above that, there are also some things that are unseen, the djinns. They live in a realm that is outside our perception, we believe in theri existence and that is where it ends. There are no "messages" coming from them that we take, there is no "communication" etc. But if you are keen on flogging a dead horse, keep taking the unwitty stance of vilifying anything Islamic by claiming it's the work of the devil. This usually helps TM as he is relieved of having a civil dicussion because he believes that Islam is from "anti-Christ".


>The Middle East is already tiring of endless wars. They
>will be soon so conditioned that they will accept a peacemaker
>without a second thought. Many Muslims are already saying that
>Papa Ratzi should continue the unfinished work of initiating
>peace that Karol left behind -Viva il papa well how about
>that. That even muslims believe that the pope can unite the
>world!!!

Are you on drugs mister? The Middle East conflict is a political one caused by the Christian west who want to control the oil resources. They put corrupt puppet regimes (like the new one in Baghdad or in Saudi Arabia) and support them unconditionally. They do this because they know that the people actually want an Islamic state in every Arab country. What would this lead to? This would lead to states like Iran, which are NOT controlled or are not marionettes of Washington. Thisis the fact, but I guess the church you attended tells you about a conspiracy theory which somehow includes the pope, hahahaha. This is a new one, I'll have to tell my friends about it.


>Coach the events am talking about were foreseen long ago and
>they must come to pass. I guess Muhammad did not even tell his
>followers about this eeh! The bible has predicted one event
>after another with meticulous precision. And all have and will
>come to pass.


Did the Bible predict that Chrsitianity will become opressive in Europe (dealing in slavery, colonialism etc) and will in the ned be rejected by their own people? The west has abandonned Chrsitianity for various reasons and you should be concerned about this rather than a ficticious unholy union between Muslims and Catholics.



>Again the only thing I find interesting here is you. You
>prefer to believe that catholics in their masses are all
>Christians only to make 180 degrees turn to deny the pope as
>chosen of God. If Muslims don’t believe that pope is not sent
>by God then why do you say that you (Muslims) are with the
>majority Christians? These inconsistencies in Islam amuse me.


I don't call the Catholics Christians, themselves and the whole world do. I know you are ashamed of them, but denying that they are Christians is ridiculous. Catholics and Protestants are like two sides of teh same coin; they both believe that Jesus is God.


>Vatican’s ambition
>at the moment is to unite all religions. In doing that the
>Vatican is going to be the sole headquarters of the world
>religions Muslims notwithstanding and since the pope’s word is
>infallible punishment will be invoked every time his word is
>abused. The more the call for religious unity the more that
>power of the pope grows.


I like this Matrix like stories you present here, where do you get them? Do you know what the average Muslims thinks of the Pope? Please, go around and ask. Muslims have their own plans and goals; the most important one is to claim their countries from the empirialistic occidentals who cotrol them through proxies. After that, an Islamic system will be installed where the rule of God will rule the land. These are the plans of Muslims all over the world, the Pope might have his plans, but the Muslims have theirs. And, in the coming century or so, Muslims have a higher probability of taking over and controlling Europe (incl. the Vatican) than the Vatican is over taking control of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina. If you don't believe this, then you are in one colourful illusion. Catholic churches in Europe stand empty while mosques are filled everday, but your feeble mind tells you otherwise.




>Need I
>mention the militant ones (Hisbollah, Taliban, Hamas and what
>have you) who think that by blowing themselves to smithereens
>and plunging planes into buildings while chanting Alahu Akbar,
>they obtain direct passage to heavenly bliss? And if you say
>otherwise then am also at liberty to say that your view suits
>you as whatever faction you represent in the Moslem world.


Do not mix up freedom fighters with a religion. Hizbollah and Hamas are political factions that are fighting to regain their territories. They are Muslims with varying interpretation of things. many western intellectuals actually support the Palestinian course and boycott Israel. They might not accept the methods used by Hamas, but the yunderstand that they have no Abraham tanks, F16 jets supplied by a superpower and that they use any means necessary. Taliban on the other hand is an oppressive regime. It joys me that they are removed from power, but it hurts me that they were replaced by a puppet (karzai- former UNOCAL worker) who is signing off Afghan gas fields to his masters as we speak.

But I see that you lack a lot of knowledge on global events hence buying the american line thatIslam is waging a war against the world. It is your prerogative to believe what you want, but it won't hurt if you read a thing or two to understand the whole picture.


>The bottom line is that Muhammad is not God’s messenger. And
>just because the quran which is his word says afew truths
>mingle with a couple lies does not mean that he came from God.

That pretty much sums up what you believe, and the funny part is taht I knew your stance from the beginning. So we are left with...You have your beliefs, and I have mine!" We can discuss in a civil manner and drop the anti-christ and other rhetoric, if you wish to abandon it that is.



Peace.

[TeamManager]

>Jesus PBUH himseld did NOT consider himself God, why would you?

As you said this topic can take ages to discuss because the outcome will reveal whether Chrsitianity or Islam is FAKE. One is!!!

My favorite argument for the deity of Christ.

First, turn to Exodus 3, where Moses encounters God in the burning bush. God tells Moses that he is the one He has chosen to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. Moses says to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me 'What is His name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God replies to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God has said that His own name, His personal name, is "I AM."

Now...

* a) Turn to John 8:56-58. Jesus is talking to the unbelieving Jews. "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing My day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet 50 years old," they said to Him, "and you have seen Abraham?" "I tell you the truth," Jesus announced, "before Abraham was, I AM!" Jesus was the great I AM from before the beginning of time; He existed before Abraham ever was. He is claiming here to be the I AM of the Old Testament. Verse 59 says the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, but the Lord Jesus slipped away. The reason they wanted to stone Him was because stoning was the death penalty for blasphemy. He was claiming to be Yahweh--Jehovah--Almighty God--I AM. (Of course, it wasn't blasphemy when Christ claimed to be who He truly was!)

* b) John 8:24. "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your sins." In your Bible, it may read "if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be...." The extra words are supplied by the editors; they're not in the original text. If you're familiar with Exodus 3 you don't need the extra words for it to make grammatical sense. The Lord Jesus is again claiming to be God.

* c) John 18:4. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Judas and some priests and soldiers are about to take Jesus prisoner. "Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to Him, went out and asked them, 'Who is it that you want?' 'Jesus of Nazareth,' they replied. 'I AM,' Jesus said. When He said, 'I AM,' they drew back and fell to the ground." (Again, in your Bible the editors may have supplied "I am [he]" to make it grammatically correct. The Greek just says, "I AM.")

The force of Jesus' claim to be Yahweh (I AM) was so powerful that it literally knocked the arresting officers and the Jewish priests off their feet!

(Ref)

[Coach]

TM,
>>Jesus PBUH himseld did NOT consider himself God, why would
>you?
>
>As you said this topic can take ages to discuss because the
>outcome will reveal whether Chrsitianity or Islam is FAKE. One
>is!!!


No! You understood it the way you wanted to. What I really meant (as I've explained earlier) is that I didn't have the time to discuss it in depth and even if we did discuss it in depth, we would still be where we started; I'll still be a Muslim (and probably a stronger Muslim) and teejay still be believing the 3-in-1 formula of God.




>First, turn to Exodus 3, where Moses encounters God in the
>burning bush. God tells Moses that he is the one He has chosen
>to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. Moses says to God,
>"Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of
>your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me 'What is His
>name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God replies to Moses, "I
>AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I
>AM has sent me to you.'" God has said that His own name, His
>personal name, is "I AM."
>
>Now...
>
>* a) Turn to John 8:56-58. Jesus is talking to the unbelieving
>Jews. "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing
>My day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet 50 years
>old," they said to Him, "and you have seen Abraham?" "I tell
>you the truth," Jesus announced, "before Abraham was, I AM!"
>Jesus was the great I AM from before the beginning of time; He
>existed before Abraham ever was. He is claiming here to be the
>I AM of the Old Testament. Verse 59 says the Jews picked up
>stones to stone Him, but the Lord Jesus slipped away. The
>reason they wanted to stone Him was because stoning was the
>death penalty for blasphemy. He was claiming to be
>Yahweh--Jehovah--Almighty God--I AM. (Of course, it wasn't
>blasphemy when Christ claimed to be who He truly was!)
>
>* b) John 8:24. "I told you that you would die in your sins;
>if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your
>sins." In your Bible, it may read "if you do not believe that
>I am the one I claim to be...." The extra words are supplied
>by the editors; they're not in the original text. If you're
>familiar with Exodus 3 you don't need the extra words for it
>to make grammatical sense. The Lord Jesus is again claiming to
>be God.
>
>* c) John 18:4. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Judas and some
>priests and soldiers are about to take Jesus prisoner. "Jesus,
>knowing all that was going to happen to Him, went out and
>asked them, 'Who is it that you want?' 'Jesus of Nazareth,'
>they replied. 'I AM,' Jesus said. When He said, 'I AM,' they
>drew back and fell to the ground." (Again, in your Bible the
>editors may have supplied "I am [he]" to make it grammatically
>correct. The Greek just says, "I AM.")
>
>The force of Jesus' claim to be Yahweh (I AM) was so powerful
>that it literally knocked the arresting officers and the
>Jewish priests off their feet!



So this is your proof that Jesus PBUH was God? You must be joking! God would NEVER be humilitated by his creatures, He would never ask another god for help, He would NEVER pray for He is God and to whom would be praying to?????

Why do you choose the verses that suit your argument? Why don'tyou talk about the origins of trinity which caused much bloodshed and was forced upon the Chrsitians by their opressive rulers?