[ATLian]

>@Coach
>>One man's truth is another man's lies. Ask ATLian and his ilk
>
>Let those fellow alone....the only real problem they have with
>God is the requirement for 'good morals' and/or 'not having
>received favours from God'.


TM, tafadhali don't put words in my mouth. When the hell did I say what you have written above? If anything I've always said that god isn't a good source for morals, since he is among other things a genocidal maniac, he accepts human sacrifices, he is pro-slavery, he doesn't respect women and women rights, he's jealous, he's for stoning-to-death even those who work on Sundays, he created evil, he is vindictful, he punished Peter for Paul's sins, etc.

So for you to say I'm against god coz he requires good morals when in my book he has pathetic morals is a load of crap. Next time ask me to clarify for you my probi with your god before misquoting me.

Then go easy with your condescending arrogance. Ati "Let those fellow alone...." Do you realize that you're the chaps who chase away most people from religion, with that sort of holier-than-thou attitude...

[TeamManager]

>All the different translations lead to different
>messages at times, I hope you get my point.

Assist me with you analysis on the following example

NIV
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

Arabic Life application Bible
ذَلÙÂ�كَ الْبÙÂ�رّÙÂ� الَّذÙÂ�ي يَمْنَØÂ*ÙÂ�هÙÂ� اللهÙÂ� عَلَى أَسَاس الإÙÂ�يمَانÙÂ� بÙÂ�يَسÙÂ�وعَ الْمَسÙÂ�يØÂ*ÙÂ� لÙÂ�جَمÙÂ�يعÙÂ� الَّذÙÂ�ينَ يÙÂ�ؤْمÙÂ�نÙÂ�ونَ. Ø¥ÙÂ�ذْ لاَ ÙÂ�َرْقَ،

لأَنَّ الْجَمÙ�يعَ قَدْ أَخْطَأÙ�وا وَهÙ�مْ عَاجÙ�زÙ�ونَ عَنْ بÙ�لÙ�وغÙ� مَا يÙ�مَجّÙ�دÙ� اللهَ .

ÙÂ�َهÙÂ�مْ يÙÂ�بَرَّرÙÂ�ونَ مَجَّاناً، بÙÂ�نÙÂ�عْمَتÙÂ�هÙÂ�Ø ÂŒ بÙÂ�الْÙÂ�ÙÂ�دَاءÙÂ� بÙÂ�الْمَسÙÂ�يØÂ*ÙÂ� يَسÙÂ�وعَ

The message
The God-setting-things-right that we read about has become Jesus--setting-things-right for us. And not only for us, but for everyone who believes in him. For there is no difference between us and them in this. Since we've compiled this long and sorry record as sinners (both us and them) and proved that we are utterly incapable of living the glorious lives God wills for us, God did it for us. Out of sheer generosity he put us in right standing with himself. A pure gift. He got us out of the mess we're in and restored us to where he always wanted us to be. And he did it by means of Jesus Christ.

[Coach]

What was the above gibberish?

[TeamManager]

>What was the above gibberish?
Sorry, my computer must have tried to change non-english characters into japanese.

Otherwise I was just sharing a passage from two versions and then you can tell me whether we still have the same message.

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

AND

Men become right with God by putting their trust in Jesus Christ. God will accept men if they come this way. All men are the same to God. For all men have sinned and have missed the shining-greatness of God. Anyone can be made right with God by the free gift of His loving favor. It is Jesus Christ Who bought them with His blood and made them free from their sins.

[Zelda]

>Virtually every religion that began after Christianity
>attempts to show that it is compatible with the Bible. They
>also endeavor, usually quite laboriously, to show that their
>founder or faith is referred to in the Bible.

@ TM, not virtually every religion. Just the ones that you choose to acknowledge.

>Thus it comes as no surprise to find that Muslims also claim that >their founder was prophesied in both the Old and New Testaments.

It is interesting that you should choose to explore this topic, because, TM, Christianity actually has a similar status with respect to Judaism. Christians claim continuity from Judaism, and find references to their Messiah, Jesus Christ, in what they call the Old Testament. Needless to say, most Jewish believers do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, and would likely raise points similar to the ones you bring up here.

PROPHECY is a complex issue, but interesting all the same.

[teejay]

>1.The Jews believe in Moses (PBUH) but reject Jesus (PBUH) -
>they even insult him (read the Talmud and you'll find out how
>much contempt they have for him).

Well it was expected anyway. The Jews extected a mighty warrior who would deliver them from the romans and not a meek person who christ appeared to be. To them meekness was not messiah's character and was unaccepted.

>2. The Christians believe in Jesus (PBUH) but reject Muhammad
>(PBUH) - they even insult him (as the ignoramus resident
>priest here has demonstrated many a times).

But Mohammed is a nobody as far as God is concerned.He is otherwise just another snare of satan.

>3. The Muslims believe in Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (PBUT).
>They love and respect them all for they are the Messengers of
>God.

The mulism choose what to believe about Jesus they dont believe he was son of God Just like the Jews. So am wondering which Jesus is this you talk about. Anybody who denies that christ came from the father is aliar. That is a different teaching. Hence antichrist.That whay I have always said the Allah and God is not one.

>Just as the Jews reject and insult Jesus (Peace and blessings
>be upon him) the Christians reject and insult Muhammad (PBUH).
>The Talmud says "Jesus is in hell, being boiled in 'hot
>excrement'" (Gittin 57a).

These many books you read will send you far from God if you believe the things of propaganda they tell you.These Jews are the same people who insulted the Lord in the desert even after seeing all the miracles that were presented before them, we've known them for long time so its not a surprise that they say these things about christ. And what makes you think that the Jewish stands are the guages upon which we are weihged. These people have been sturbon and are humans like any other people. They worshipped Idols just like Mohammed before he claimed his angelic vision.They are still waiting for the messiah to come.

>They also say that Jesus (PBUH) was killed because he
>performed sorcery (magic with help from evil spirit). TM, you
>are no different than those who insult Jesus (PBUH).

But do you think satan would have anything better to say about God's son. The only sad thing is that you believe satan that beleive in the son of God.

Mohammed is not in the bible as brethren of christ but as a crusader against the teachings of christ. He is one of the very many false teachers christians were warned about. BY the way what did mohammed prophesy about? A prophet foretels the future. Mohammed did nothing of the sort other than lead violent islamic religous wars.

[teejay]

>True, but we love ALL the Messengers of God and have a lot of
>respect for them. It is one of the tenets of faith to believe
>in all the Messengers of God and one is not a Muslim if he/she
>doesn't believe in His Messengers.

Christ was not only a messenger but son of God. do you agree? He came to save the world. Do you agree? Moses who you repect wrote about christ. Do you agree? ONLY though christ can one see the fahter. Do you beleive? If your answer is anything other than NO to the above questions then muslims are not with Christians.

>>Always wondering, Since the time of
>>Abraham...Moses...Joshua...King
>>David....Elijah....Daniel...John the Baptist, God always
>used
>>Jewish prophets for a particular purpose.....WHY DID HE jump
>>onto a Gentile prophet in the name of Muhammed?
>
>Muslims believe that every people on earth have been sent a
>Prophet/Messenger. This is why we agree with some aspects of
>the Veda, Upanishad and other religion's scriptures for they
>have divine origin but in the case of i.e. Hinduuism
>polytheism has taken root and the original Messgae got lost in
>the midst.

Maybe Islam too lost the original message. That says only through Christ we are saved.

>Muslims believe that there have been around 300 000 Prophets
>sent by God but there are 25 mentionned in the Qur'an. The
>Prophets that have come after Abraham(Abraham [PBUH] was NOT a
>Jew) have mainly been Jews (descendants of Isack PBUH) while
>Mohamed PBUH is the descendant of Ishmael PBUH. Prophet's are
>not sent exclusively to Jews, and Muslims believe that even
>Africans, Latin Americans etc have been sent Messengers
>throughout history. This is why you find that despite people
>living in different areas of the globe they have similar views
>on values, morals, the belief in a Higher Being etc.

I guess by bowing at the feet of the Roman pontiff " holy father" as was witnessed recently is also believing in God's messenger.What were those muslims doing In Rome anyway? I tend to think It Religous was Rather than Political. The pope is cheating the world the He want to unite all religions and everyone says amen to that. Muslims allow of that with a mighty wailing on their powerful PA systems which soon will face the vatican. Not realising that if that so happens(ecumenism)then the image of the firts beast would have been made as written in the prophesy of revelation.11,12,13. Moslems who belief in one God now changes to repect fellow man who maketh himself God and sits in the temple exalting himself above God!!

>I find this to be ironic! The Christians don't agree on the
>authenticity of parts of the Bible among themselves. The
>Protestants omit the seven Pseudepigraphal books while the
>Catholics recognise them as "words of God". So who is right?

Catholics are wrong. The cathloic Jesuits had long ago planned to distort the bible to favor catholic's distorted teachings and adding extra books in the bible and omiting some parts of the decalogue was part of that masterplan.The cathoic church has often confessed of having chnged the worshipping day from God's sabbath to Sun Day for which the scriptures are silent. This church has had the unseen hand in the murdering of several president in the USA simply coz they were hindering their jesuitical missions.The man they call the bishop of rome is doing a bidding for satan himself. He is the Genaral of the Jesuits. Have you not read that the catholic church at one time in her history forbade laymen to read the bible for 400 hundred dark years.

Homework:did you know that the USA does not own the federal reserve bank. It is under Jesuits control.

>If you (Christians) can't decide which is RIGHT then what is
>an 'outsider' to make of it?

Outsiders like undecided muslims choose to go with catholics. I saw them in rome when Benedict 16th was elected.

>There are also about 17 (!)
>English versions of the Bible and with every version you have
>different words, with the differeing words comes different
>intepretations and the essence is eventually lost!

Now because you beleive in moses and abraham then you and other muslims are lost also too. You do happen to read at least one of those 17 version to know about God's messengers, dont you?

[teejay]

>There are two main reasons why some Muslims became hostile
>towards Christians after the time of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
>In the 15th century, a man named John Andre Maure wrote a book
>against Islam which were full of lies. Most anti-Islamic
>writers that came a few centuries after him could not know
>Arabic so they took his words to be facts and wrote very many
>books using Maure's book as reference. The 'written Crusade"
>began in the start of 18th century where insults and false
>accusations about Islam nad the Prophet were spread all over
>Chrsitian territories. They called the Prophet an adulterer, a
>thief and many other foul names. Even you seem to have taken
>from them a lot when you refer to him as the "anti-Christ"
>despite Muhammad PBUH having great respect for Chrsitians and
>above all Jesus Christ (PBUH). If you read the history of
>islam, you'll realise that Muhammad PBUH sent some of his
>followers to Abyssinia where King Negus was the leader. He had
>heard about his kindness and his devotion to Christianity and
>he sent his people to escape prosecution from the Polytheists
>of Mecca. The Prophet always had good relations with the
>Christians but things changed dramatically a few centuries on.

Am glad you are talking about the crusades. These fights were instigated by none than the catholic vatican. The decree came from the councils led by the pope. Unfortuntely the Muslims pledge their support for the vatican that hated them!

>Another reason was the atrocious Christians who led a Crusade
>against Islam. These people destroyed every form of life they
>met on their way, homes, trees and even animals were not
>spared. You probably know how the Crusade affected the views
>of Muslims and Jews towards the Christians. This together with
>the writngs against Islam caused Muslims not believe that the
>follwers of the Prophet of God could do such horrendous acts
>and this led to people questionning their (Crusaders' and the
>anti-Islamic authors') beliefs.

Now you must know that there are christinas and there are catholics. The latter has done more damege to Christ's name then Good,While the former(Protestants) have perpetuated the truth all the time following in Luthers steps.

>I think you totally misunderstood what I meant. There is one
>problem with translating works and that is the people doing
>the translation always write the word they believe is CLOSEST
>to the word in HEBREW/ARAMAC/GREEK. With this, you are left
>with many different words trying to describe teh same thing
>but ultimately the message gets lost in translation. This is
>the reason why Muslims have to learn Arabic in order to
>understand the Qur'an, but can still read a translated version
>which we don't regard even to come close to the original
>language and doesn't have the same respect. I'll give you one
>example of words getting 'lost in translation'. One English
>version of the Bible says...
>
>"...Behold, a VIRGIN shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall
>call his name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14 King James Version)
>
>while another one reads...
>
>"...Behold, a YOUNG WOMAN shall conceive, and bear a son, and
>shall call his name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14 RSV)
>
>The origianl word in Hebrew is ALMAH (and the Greek word
>PARTHENOS which means virgin but somehow people translating it
>to English choose to translate the word to mean "young woman"
>instead of virgin. There is a massive difference between the
>two and the "young woman" version even disregards the MAJOR
>fact that even Muslims acknowledge that Jesus (PBUH) was born
>to a virgin. All the different translations lead to different
>messages at times, I hope you get my point.

I like your argument. It is very impressive indeed, but only to those have not come to contact with moslem evengelists. I see them everday. They yell one word and then rush to another part of the bible to yell out another one to reprove the words of the bible. Now I do concur that translation has its fare contribution far as some words are concerned. At times the tranlation was done under some very difficult conditons you must know that,but still the original messege for which the bible was intended still comes out very clearly for God does does desire that his word must be know to everyone. But what you talk is in conlict with what I here out there.Those moslems utterly question the birth through a virign.

When I visited Islamcity .com and Other Islam sites i found some very contrasting statements That are not close to what you want us to believe here.

[Coach]

teejay,
>>2. The Christians believe in Jesus (PBUH) but reject
>Muhammad
>>(PBUH) - they even insult him (as the ignoramus resident
>>priest here has demonstrated many a times).
>
>But Mohammed is a nobody as far as God is concerned.He is
>otherwise just another snare of satan.


Man of Satan eh? You sure know nothing about him do you?





>The mulism choose what to believe about Jesus they dont
>believe he was son of God Just like the Jews. So am wondering
>which Jesus is this you talk about. Anybody who denies that
>christ came from the father is aliar. That is a different
>teaching. Hence antichrist.That whay I have always said the
>Allah and God is not one.


The issue of Jesus PBUh being the son of God and the issue of trinity can take us ages to discuss. I don't have time at the moment and even if we discuss it, we'd still be where we started (you believeing that he is a son of God and me believing taht he is the Messenger of God).





>Mohammed is not in the bible as brethren of christ but as a
>crusader against the teachings of christ. He is one of the
>very many false teachers christians were warned about. BY the
>way what did mohammed prophesy about? A prophet foretels the
>future. Mohammed did nothing of the sort other than lead
>violent islamic religous wars.


Again, you show your ignorance of Islamic history and the man behind it all. Muhammad PBUH taught about his fellow Messenger Jesus PBUH and taught people that he was a Messenger like himself. he never uttered a negative thing about Jesus PBUH and any Muslim who says anything bad about Jesus PBUH is NOT considered to be a Muslim. But, we reject the things that some Christians later attributed to him vis a vis calling him God (or son God depending on who you ask).

There are many predictions Muhammad PBUH made that have come true, do your homework before you speak but if you are extremely lethargic ask me and I shall lend you a hand.


>Christ was not only a messenger but son of God. do you agree?
>He came to save the world. Do you agree? Moses who you repect
>wrote about christ. Do you agree? ONLY though christ can one
>see the fahter. Do you beleive? If your answer is anything
>other than NO to the above questions then muslims are not with
>Christians.


If you have spoeken to Muslims (as you claim) then you wouldn't be asking me these questions. Muslims are with Christians, but not those who say that Jesus PBUH is God or His son. Just like you are not with Catholics on many of their teachings, Muslims are not with you on this particular issue.




>I guess by bowing at the feet of the Roman pontiff " holy
>father" as was witnessed recently is also believing in God's
>messenger.What were those muslims doing In Rome anyway? I tend
>to think It Religous was Rather than Political. The pope is
>cheating the world the He want to unite all religions and
>everyone says amen to that. Muslims allow of that with a
>mighty wailing on their powerful PA systems which soon will
>face the vatican. Not realising that if that so
>happens(ecumenism)then the image of the firts beast would have
>been made as written in the prophesy of revelation.11,12,13.
>Moslems who belief in one God now changes to repect fellow man
>who maketh himself God and sits in the temple exalting himself
>above God!!


I don't wan to know about the beef you have with Catholics but I'd like to illumiinform you that Muslims don't take orders from the Vatican. Muslims also don't believe in the pope being "chosen by God" or anything of that sort. Get your facts right mister because you seem to be mixing things up.


>Catholics are wrong. The cathloic Jesuits had long ago planned
>to distort the bible to favor catholic's distorted teachings
>and adding extra books in the bible and omiting some parts of
>the decalogue was part of that masterplan.The cathoic church
>has often confessed of having chnged the worshipping day from
>God's sabbath to Sun Day for which the scriptures are silent.
>This church has had the unseen hand in the murdering of
>several president in the USA simply coz they were hindering
>their jesuitical missions.The man they call the bishop of rome
>is doing a bidding for satan himself. He is the Genaral of the
>Jesuits. Have you not read that the catholic church at one
>time in her history forbade laymen to read the bible for 400
>hundred dark years.


Majority of the Christians in the world are Catholics and you think they believe in a distorted religion. Interesting!


>Outsiders like undecided muslims choose to go with catholics.
>I saw them in rome when Benedict 16th was elected.

The Muslims who attended did it out of respect, the same way I'd attend the funeral of my Christian or Jew neighbour, or their weddings, confirmations and other occassions for that matter. Catholicsalso have a seat for power which they recognise, it is easier for Muslims to hold dialogue with them. This is comparable to countries, a nation like Cuba might be "evil" in some people's eyes but they have a seat in the UN whereas a nation like Somalia has no govt and therefore no voice. This is just a simple analogy that I hope will elucidate things a tard for you.


>Now because you beleive in moses and abraham then you and
>other muslims are lost also too. You do happen to read at
>least one of those 17 version to know about God's messengers,
>dont you?


I read them as much as you read the Qur'an.


>Am glad you are talking about the crusades. These fights were
>instigated by none than the catholic vatican. The decree came
>from the councils led by the pope. Unfortuntely the Muslims
>pledge their support for the vatican that hated them!

To everyone people of the world, the Crusaders were Christians. people know that they were Catholics but keep in mind that they represent the majority of Christians in the world. They were so wicked that they destroyed even trees and killed animals on their way to Jerusalem. They were so shocked by the kindness of Saladin that some started saying that he must have been Christian because a Muslim couldn't be that nice. Shows you the level of ignorance among the Crusaders.



>Now you must know that there are christinas and there are
>catholics. The latter has done more damege to Christ's name
>then Good,While the former(Protestants) have perpetuated the
>truth all the time following in Luthers steps.


Maybe this view suits you as a Protestant but reality says otherwise. In reality, Catholics ae Chrsitians who make up about 60% of Christians worldwide (roughly over a billion people today).



>I like your argument. It is very impressive indeed, but only
>to those have not come to contact with moslem evengelists. I
>see them everday. They yell one word and then rush to another
>part of the bible to yell out another one to reprove the words
>of the bible. Now I do concur that translation has its fare
>contribution far as some words are concerned. At times the
>tranlation was done under some very difficult conditons you
>must know that,but still the original messege for which the
>bible was intended still comes out very clearly for God does
>does desire that his word must be know to everyone. But what
>you talk is in conlict with what I here out there.Those
>moslems utterly question the birth through a virign.


I gave a clear example of the dangers of translating Holy Books. This is why the Qur'an is never translated in that manner.

Where did you see Muslims who question the miraculous birth of Jesus PBUH? If they do, please inform them that they aren't Muslims because they are going against the Qur'an which speaks a lot about the Holy Virgin Mary and the miraculous birth of Jesus PBUH. There is even a WHOLE chapter (chapter 19) of the Qur'an called Mary. Muslims have A LOT OF respect for Mary and is said to be among the women of Paeadise. Here are some verse that speak of the miraculous birth of Jesus PBUH...

CHAPTER 3: 45-47

45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!


Share these verses with the "so called" Muslims who deny Jesus' PBUH miraculous birth.

[teejay]

>Man of Satan eh? You sure know nothing about him do you?
>The issue of Jesus PBUh being the son of God and the issue of
>trinity can take us ages to discuss. I don't have time at the
>moment and even if we discuss it, we'd still be where we
>started (you believeing that he is a son of God and me
>believing taht he is the Messenger of God).

The where is your belief in God's messengers if it takes you ages to talk about things of faith and belief for you to accept the word of God. A tree produces fruits after its own kind. You are a product of Muhammad' s arabic teachings. I guess he also argued that way. I do know something about him after all. He is not God's messenger.

>Again, you show your ignorance of Islamic history and the man
>behind it all. Muhammad PBUH taught about his fellow Messenger
>Jesus PBUH and taught people that he was a Messenger like
>himself. he never uttered a negative thing about Jesus PBUH
>and any Muslim who says anything bad about Jesus PBUH is NOT
>considered to be a Muslim. But, we reject the things that some
>Christians later attributed to him vis a vis calling him God
>(or son God depending on who you ask).

Your statment above does not think that am ignorant my dear. A true Christian teaches what is in the book of god and not his own thoughts. There if you reject that then you are also not a muslim. I made to undesrtand that muslims believe wholly in Jesus.

>There are many predictions Muhammad PBUH made that have come
>true, do your homework before you speak but if you are
>extremely lethargic ask me and I shall lend you a hand.

What homework it is easy to read the mind of a muslim at the very time they speak just like christ read the minds of the srcibes. The answer lies with their very won questions.

>If you have spoeken to Muslims (as you claim) then you
>wouldn't be asking me these questions. Muslims are with
>Christians, but not those who say that Jesus PBUH is God or
>His son. Just like you are not with Catholics on many of their
>teachings, Muslims are not with you on this particular issue.

Which christians are muslims with I wonder. I fchrist is not son fo GOd then you simply mean he is not born of a viirgin as you had earlier own said. Christians dont say that.ONly muslims do.

>I don't wan to know about the beef you have with Catholics but
>I'd like to illumiinform you that Muslims don't take orders
>from the Vatican. Muslims also don't believe in the pope being
>"chosen by God" or anything of that sort. Get your facts right
>mister because you seem to be mixing things up.

What were they doing at the vatican? With even Kenyan ones pleadging goodwill messeges to bendict's papacy.