[martin77]

Say one day I become the president of Kenya (You never know!)as a born again Christian, would I advocate for abstenance (based on my christian beliefs) or would I encourage the use of condoms based on the facts that not all of my country men are christians and hence have no obligation to be chaste yet I as their president owe it to them to save them from their own runaway hormones/

This arguement can be extended further to pornography. would you accept it (thus uphold the freedom of expression) or would you condemn it (hence impose your own social cultural values on others?)Is it even possible to ryhmn Christianity with democratic values? can christians become politicians?

Joenm, or Team Manager what do you guys (assuming you are guys) think?

ps. Sanaa, you are such a good one. (Thats between me and her!)

[satjas]

Hey martin77

am i allowed to comment?

-the paradigm shifter.......God's friend.

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[martin77]

ofcourse Taj

[joeNM]

i think ex president moi said it best. i am a president of christians and none christians.(even christians using condoms in my humble opion is ok ). i suggest a multi faced approach to the issues not only sexual but in general when it comes to government and social policy . i think a combination of beliefs and policy measures that are realistic and at the same time effective is the way to go.

about porngraphy i will say legalizing it doesnt make any sense.

christians can became politicians some of the most impressive politicians of the past century were indeed christians .woodrow wilson ,winston churchill.

bill clinton i think is a methodist so being a christian doesnt mean you can politic. politics is just a science like any other in the same way you can be a christian doctor you can be a christian politician. the question is how much will your faith affect your desposing of that responsibility,and i guess that is determined by how your faith affects you dail walk

[TeamManager]

I don't think Christians can encouage or even advocate the use of condoms by couples outside the marriage unit. What they can do is allow condoms to be AVAILABLE to people (who despite knowing the truth still want to have sex).

I have always wanted to ask a question to people who always critize the pope's (and other Christians) stand on 'condoms for the unmarried'. IS IT possible to find a unmarried couple who are on the verge of having sex, removing the already worn condom and continueing to have unprotected sex...on the pretext that the pope said no to condoms? In other words...if people don't listen to the Church defination of sexual sin, WHAT makes you think that they listen to the Church's advice against condoms?

>....president owe it to them to save
>them from their own runaway hormones/

Runaway hormones or immoral behavious?? I guess porn will only get your hormones running faster...therefore keep away from them.

>Is it even possible to ryhmn Christianity with
>democratic values? can christians become politicians?

Yes, why not?

[Zelda]

>I have always wanted to ask a question to people who always
>critize the pope's (and other Christians) stand on 'condoms
>for the unmarried'. IS IT possible to find a unmarried couple
>who are on the verge of having sex, removing the already worn
>condom and continueing to have unprotected sex...on the
>pretext that the pope said no to condoms? In other words...if
>people don't listen to the Church defination of sexual sin,
>WHAT makes you think that they listen to the Church's advice
>against condoms?

heh heh! good point!!

[ATLian]

Seeing that

(1) no matter what, people are gonna f*ck, coz abstinence doesn't work

(2) we have a major over-population problem due to unwanted babies

(3) AIDS is killing thao Kenyans

(4) condoms have been proven to reduce unwanted pregnancies and STDs

if I were the Presi, I would definitely recommend condom use. BTW TM I don't care if the couple is married or not, I say condoms to all. My job isn't to preach my religion to my country, my job is to do what's best for the country. If someone has some beliefs in his god can hinder his effective running of the country, then he should not be a president.

Here's an example of religion intefering with good governance - A good friend of mine works for a company called Population Services International (PSI) in Kenya. PSI is a US government NGO, and they try prevent epidemics. The programs they are working on in Kenya include supplying clean water, malaria control, and of course AIDS. My pal works in the AIDS control division, which among other things, distributes free condoms and sells Trust condoms for highly subsidized prices. She told me that there have been numerous studies and experiments that have shown conclusively that use of condoms is the best way of fighting AIDS, period! In all their test areas where they gave away condoms and taught people how to use condoms, the rate and prevalence of AIDS went down. BTW one of the worst ways of AIDS control is abstinence, since, like I wrote above, people want to and are going to f*ck!

When Bush was elected, he gave $15 billion to fight AIDS in Africa, which was heaven for akina PSI and the other smaller NGO's that feed off them in Kenya. They had dreams of just unleashing condoms all over and cutting down Kenya's infection rate by double digit percentage points. Lakini Bush added a major clause to the money - due to his religious beliefs, not a single penny of the $15 billion should be used for any condom programs, whether it's education (on the benefits of condoms or how to use condoms) or the sale of condoms. He wanted the money to go into programs that his religion and god deemed fit e.g. abstinence programs, despite the fact that tons of evidence showed they can't work.

I also have a pal who works for the Center for Disease COntrol (CDC) here in Atlanta, and she had the same storo - Bush cut funding for condom programs in federal AIDS programs in the US. She deals with black crackheads and MSMs - Men who have Sex with Men, the CDC term for the chaps we call gays. These groups f*ck each other daily like rabbits and have rates of AIDS infection that are quadzillion-truple the national rate. Plus, and I know this is a major oxymoron, not all MSMs are gay. Some are married, have kids, etc, and do guys on the down-low (Undercover Brothers) since in the black community gayness is still a major taboo, so they spread AIDS to their wives too. Despite the evidence of how condom use and education in the mentioned groups has been known to keep the rates of AIDS infection very low, she can't even mention to them about condoms coz it's against Bush's religion. WTF?

I think that is totally irresponsible coming from a president and totally f*cked up that he can use his religious beliefs to unleash doctrines that directly lead to the deaths of many of his citizens!

[TeamManager]

>(1) no matter what, people are gonna f*ck, coz abstinence doesn't work

I guess that this was meant to be a joke. Ati what doesn't work. Surely only Abstinence is 100% sure followed by being faithful.

>(2) we have a major over-population problem due to unwanted babies

Wish you had send the message to your parents before you were born. Maybe .....


>if I were the Presi, I would definitely recommend condom
>use. BTW TM I don't care if the couple is married or
>not, I say condoms to all. My job isn't to preach my
>religion to my country, my job is to do what's best for
>the country.

And the best is .... provide every citizen with enough condoms. Why not teach people to value abstinence as was taught by our culture and our religion for ages.


>If someone has some beliefs in his god can hinder his
>effective running of the country, then he should not be
>a president.

I think that Amin dada said the same thing before he overthrew Obote and murdered countless people.


>I think that is totally irresponsible coming from a
>president and totally f*cked up that he can use his
>religious beliefs to unleash doctrines that directly
>lead to the deaths of many of his citizens!

Please get me statistics from your buddies on the number of people having unprotected sinful sex cause the pope or Iman or even the president said that condoms are wrong.

[martin77]

just to add on to this debate, anyone who has been to Nairobi lately knows that the second most advertised product apart from coca cola is trust condoms.

They are everywhere. Knock down a lady's handbag and be sure to find among the clutter, a strawberry flavoured version of rubber. How come then that the AIDS scourge has hardly abated?

[joeNM]

I know this is going to sound crazy but i dont think that many people are dying of aids in kenya like they say. i think the issue of aids in africa has became a cash issue that non governmenntal and governments use to get cash by blowing the issue out of propotion. if you do the math it doesnt make sense.

i few years ago we were told 700 people a day die of aids in kenya that means in a week thats 4,900.in a month its 19,600 in a year its 235,200 people .so from 1998 to now that makes it 1,881,600. that i think is crazy. please note am not saying that people are not dying of aids but are those number realistic taking into fact that this are only the reported cases.or are this numbers aimed at bring cash .