[jarabuon]

>people having unprotected sinful sex cause the pope or Iman or
>even the president said that condoms are wrong.
>
the point is that these influential leaders words can have an effect on the availability of condoms which affects those who don't care about abstinence.

[ATLian]

TM, everything I wrote is a reported in various studies that are easily available on the web. Please check the CDC, PSI, Bill Gates Organization and the WHO websites and you'll confirm it for yourself. Plus I was quoting people who do this for a career, so when they say abstinence doesn't work, it isn't just sh*t they pulled from their asses. Tafadhali don't let religion blind you from facts. Also, are you saying that you support Bush's decision not to allow any money to be spent on condom use, depsite the damning evidence of what happens when condoms aren't used. Anyway, let me go easy on the diatribe and answer your swalis. I'll post my answers in 3 shorter posts so as to avoid having a post that's too long.


>>(1) no matter what, people are gonna f*ck, coz abstinence
>doesn't work
>
>I guess that this was meant to be a joke. Ati what doesn't
>work. Surely only Abstinence is 100% sure followed by being
>faithful.

TM, there have been extensive studies about the best ways of preventing the spread of AIDS. When they ran abstinence programs, the failure rate was extremely high. That's coz sex is one of those primal human needs, just a notch below the need for food and air. Numerous studies shows that it is not a good way of preventing sex in the masses. For every 1 TM who won't f*ck around coz his religion says so, there are 10,000 non-TM's who can't wait to get some. For those 10,000 non-TM's, give them condoms. It's about reality, not about a fantasy religious world where people would only have sex after they marry, and stay with only one partner all their lives. You guys are the exceptions, not the norm, and a good leader would make sure he takes care of the norm.

[ATLian]

>>(2) we have a major over-population problem due to unwanted
>babies
>
>Wish you had send the message to your parents before you were
>born. Maybe .....

I need to go and copy what Bunny told joeNM on the previous thread, that's what I think of you and your above swali right now. Lakini I'll ignore the insult and do the mature thing here. Me and my two sisters were planned kiddos. Are you saying that unwanted babies aren't a source of over-population?



>>if I were the Presi, I would definitely recommend condom
>>use. BTW TM I don't care if the couple is married or
>>not, I say condoms to all. My job isn't to preach my
>>religion to my country, my job is to do what's best for
>>the country.
>
>And the best is .... provide every citizen with enough
>condoms. Why not teach people to value abstinence as was
>taught by our culture and our religion for ages.

TM, because numerous studies have proven that that sh*t doesn't work. Man, kwani you can't grasp that concept? Not everyone thinks like you when it comes to sex - most people want to get laid. The only reason most guys haven't slept with 1,000 women is because they didn't have access to the 1,000 women. If they did, they would have. And now the mean age of people having sex is getting younger and younger. A fool is someone who keeps doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. If abstinence programs haven't worked in the past, you'd be a fool to still keep trying them. That's why we moved from abstinence programs to condom programs.

[ATLian]

>>If someone has some beliefs in his god can hinder his
>>effective running of the country, then he should not be
>>a president.
>
>I think that Amin dada said the same thing before he overthrew
>Obote and murdered countless people.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that Amin overthrew Obote because Obote was a Christian and his Christian god was intefering with Obote's running of the government or what? BTW Amin is meant to have been mentally unstable, a condition that was brought about by syphillis. So just like I'm against someone who's beliefs in his god can hinder his effective running of the country, I also don't want someone who's mental incapacity can hinder his effective running of the country.



>>I think that is totally irresponsible coming from a
>>president and totally f*cked up that he can use his
>>religious beliefs to unleash doctrines that directly
>>lead to the deaths of many of his citizens!
>
>Please get me statistics from your buddies on the number of
>people having unprotected sinful sex cause the pope or Iman or
>even the president said that condoms are wrong.

From what I remember, there are 4 main reasons pals don't use condoms (when they are readily available). First is coz they want to enjoy the better feeling of condomless sex. Second is coz of some stupid macho sh*t. Third is coz of lack of education on the benefits and how to use a condom. And fourth is coz their religion forbids it.

When you have Moi, the Imam, the Catholic and Protestant leaders and a thao ministers and MPs all gathered for a massive condom burning rally in Uhuru Park that's publicized nationwide on state run TV and radio, that sh*t has a crazy multiplier effect. There are very many people from there who, even though they have full access condoms, won't use them coz their Priest wailed about how godly chaps shouldn't use condoms. Who do you think those chaps in shags will believe, a 25 year old PSI employee who's preaching to them to use condoms, or their own freaking president and the head of their religion? Believe me TM, those leaders are directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of their subjects.

[Zelda]

today's "school and career" in the standard features a number of articles on the effect of aids on the teaching community. if u guys are serious about this discussion, i suggest that you take a look at it.

http://eastandard.net/mags/schoolcar...t.php?style=32

[TeamManager]

@Atlian,

1. I am not against AVAILING condoms to all, BUT I am against recomending and advocating condoms for all. I still believe that our first attack against AIDS should be abstainance.

2. My 'Amin Dada' story was an example of what can happen when a leader doesn't have any 'religious ethics' control. Surely you can appreciate the positive influence 'religious control' has had.

3. My family planning comment was not an insult, but I was trying to get the 'living' to think about the choice the dead have.

[teejay]

>Say one day I become the president of Kenya (You never
>know!)as a born again Christian, would I advocate for
>abstenance (based on my christian beliefs) or would I
>encourage the use of condoms based on the facts that not all
>of my country men are christians and hence have no obligation
>to be chaste yet I as their president owe it to them to save
>them from their own runaway hormones/

Although am not amongst those you have hinted as the people who possibly hold answers to your qeust. I will go ahead and say a word or two.

My stand on condoms is one that i cannot be forced to retract no matter what happens. Being a follower of christ I know that asking people to practise safe sex through use of condoms is actually encouraging promiscuity. The wages of sin is death, we are taught from the holy scriptures and so are we taught that thou shalt not commit adultery. But what have we done? Claim that such commands were only meant for Isrealites in mosaic days. And what is the result- UKIMWI and consequently death!

And by the way the best way to save peoples lives is to ask them to a responsible life and not to give them condoms. If they say no to that then you cannot help them because they will have chosen death instead of life.

>This arguement can be extended further to pornography. would
>you accept it (thus uphold the freedom of expression) or would
>you condemn it (hence impose your own social cultural values
>on others?)Is it even possible to ryhmn Christianity with
>democratic values? can christians become politicians?

As a christian what do you think? My take on this is that condeming ponography has nothing to with imposing one's own social cultural values on others. It is a matter of rebuling what is sin.After all everyone owes theit life to on supreme GOD who sent us his son to show us they way.

One may look at me as a person who is closed minded,but I must say that I know not any other way of looking at things other than judge them according to what is written in God's holy book for it is the only detector of errors. Human knowledge we are told is foolishness to God.And so is the act of prescribing condom use to people who have animal instincts and cannot control their sexual urge.

[ATLian]

>1. I am not against AVAILING condoms to all, BUT I am against
>recomending and advocating condoms for all. I still believe
>that our first attack against AIDS should be abstainance.

TM, why can't you understand that numerous studies have shown that abstinence programs don't work? Maybe you think that the best fight against AIDS is eating ugangas 4 times a day, but if studies show that that doesn't work, why the heck would you keep trying it? Remember "a fool is someone who keeps doing the same thing and expecting different results."



>2. My 'Amin Dada' story was an example of what can happen when
>a leader doesn't have any 'religious ethics' control. Surely
>you can appreciate the positive influence 'religious control'
>has had.

BTW Amin was a devout Muslim, which is why Saudi Arabia gave him assylum. Which shows that religion doesn't necessarily bring about good leadership. I can also show you tons of examples of the carnage that religious leaders have unleashed. Remember World War II was also a religious war - the catholic Hitler against the Jews. More people have died because of religion than any other thing world-wide, starting from the early days when god drowned the world coz they weren't worshipping him, to the numerous times he led the Israelites against various armies to the latest Islam vs non-Islam-world wars that are currently going on!

[TeamManager]

>TM, why can't you understand that numerous studies have
>shown that abstinence programs don't work? Maybe you
>think that the best fight against AIDS is eating ugangas
>4 times a day, but if studies show that that doesn't
>work, why the heck would you keep trying it? Remember "a
> fool is someone who keeps doing the same thing and
>expecting different results."

...doesn't not work? What studies? For the last 6000yrs it worked wonderfully for Humans.....only in the last 40yrs has a large number people started behaving diffently and recklessly.

Isn't it funny that communities that have not been infected by the hollywood-like bug, don't have a problem with abstinence.

Why don't we return to 'appreciating virginity' and 'abstinence' then see whether it doesn't work. BTW many people still respect themselves.

[D.G.E.T.]

>...doesn't not work? What studies? For the last 6000yrs it
>worked wonderfully for Humans.....only in the last 40yrs has a
>large number people started behaving diffently and
>recklessly.
>

You can't be serious!