[Zelda]

Many of us are familiar with expressions such as "The Teacher", "The greatest man who ever lived" and "The Great Physician", often used to refer to Jesus. There are four Gospels in the RSV of the Bible devoted to the life, teachings and ministry of Jesus, and mention is often made of verses in the Old Testament that are said to prophesy the birth and life of Jesus. Different forms of Christianity have in common Jesus as their main point of reference.
2000 or so years have elapsed since Jesus' lifetime. The Christian church has developed, formed branches, evolved, spread worldwide... It has taken on a shape largely different from that assumed by the earliest forms of Christianity. Within these branches in the modern church, the teachings of Jesus are, for the most part, still primary.

In addition, there have been thousands of men and women who have lived and died for or within the church, and whose teachings, philosophies, and acts have cemented public opinion on what Christianity actually is or represents. It is these people that I am interested in. My questions to you: Who do you think have been some of these key figures in the development of Christian thought and practice in the intervening 2000 yrs? Can you think of any philosphers, sages, saints, ordinary folk, religious leaders etc whose thoughts, ideas and actions have had a significant effect on the historical development of the Christian church(es)? Can you think of those who exist in our times and whose actions have had a major impact on Christian churches and beliefs? Are they remembered within the church(es)? Is it important for a Christian to know who these people were? If yes, why? If no, why not?

[Coach]

Zelda,
I don't think there's any man who has had an impact on Christianity that even comes close to the influence St. Paul has. If I'm not mistaken, (among other things) he even encourages celibacy as being more noble than the institution of marriage...

Corinthians 1 - Chapter 7
1. Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: "It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman,"

32. I should like you to be free of anxieties."An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord.

33. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife'

34. and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

35. I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction.


He knew that even if sex was totally forbidden, people would still have it so the best way wasto make celibacy more attractive. I understand this as him saying that sex (with a husband/wife) is BAD and that humans should avoid it if they want to serve the Lord. Why would the Lord create us with hormones and (make us) have to copulate in order to procreate if this was the case? Is every parent risking the Lord's grace?

St Augustine also took it a step further and connected sex with guilt, all this from the view and intepretation of the "original sin" that has been passed down to all generations.

[TeamManager]

I really wanted to avoid this topic cause it reminds me of a certain muslim preacher I used to see while working in Kisumu.

Who is Paul? Whats his purpose?
But the Lord said to Ananias, �gGo! This man (Paul) is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.�h Acts 9:15-16


>He knew that even if sex was totally forbidden, people
>would still have it so the best way wasto make celibacy
>more attractive. I understand this as him saying that
>sex (with a husband/wife) is BAD and that humans should
>avoid it if they want to serve the Lord.

I am shocked with your kind of selective reading, reasoning and understanding.

I will let sleeping dogs .....

>St Augustine also took it a step further and connected
>sex with guilt, all this from the view and intepretation
>of the "original sin" that has been passed down to all
>generations.

Where did you get this one from?

[Coach]

TeamManager,

>I am shocked with your kind of selective reading, reasoning
>and understanding.

Please don't be shocked but instead give me an explanation of the following verses as it would be more beneficial to me...

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32. I should like you to be free of anxieties."An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord.

33. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife'

34. and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

35. I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction.
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>>St Augustine also took it a step further and connected
>>sex with guilt, all this from the view and intepretation
>>of the "original sin" that has been passed down to all
>>generations.
>
>Where did you get this one from?

You don't know much about St Augustine's role in promoting celibacy do you? Where did I get it from? LOL, try any encyclopaedia and then get back to me if you fail to find any info.

Do you know who said this..."Nothing is so powerful in drawing the spirit of a man downwards as the caresses of a woman." Take a wild guess...or google the quote and a certain name will pop up.



I also read this on a thesis...

"In the fourth century, Augustine helped revive many of Plato's five-hundred year-old concepts on the unnatural union of the human body and the soul in efforts to down-play the importance of sensual pleasure. Augustine, who sowed some wild oats before he settled down to ordinary day-to-day sainthood, is credited with merging his Manichaeanistic good v. evil leanings with Plato's worldview to give the Christian world a negative attitude toward the human body specifically and sex in general.

"Much of the guilt, repression, shame, and frustration sprouted in the Catholic perception of sex and bodily function can be traced back to Augustine, not to the Scriptures which tell us that the body is a gift from God."

source: http://www.arthurstreet.com/celibacy1993.html

[satjas]

Hey Coach

......and hence also the reason a muslim woman is made to drape in cloth to make her unattractive for the lustful manly eyes instead of the men being educated to control their lust......why are you pointing fingers at St. Augustine aka TM, examine your own filth....thanks brother Coach.

QuranÂ* Surah 4: Women Â*


Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will be burnt with fire and suffer a painful doom. 14

For the disbelievers, We have prepared a painful doom. 18

For disbelievers, We prepare a shameful doom. 37

Hell is sufficient for their burning. 55

Unbelievers will be tormented forever with fire. When their skin is burned off, a fresh skin will be provided. 56

Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 74

Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 76

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 89

If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 91 ( Offering peace in Islam means surrendering. All 67 out of 68 wars of Muhammad were offensive. They are called qazwah (raid, ambush, sudden attack). That is how Muhammad waged his wars. He raided, massacred and looted civilians with no warning. The one defensive war, 'ditch' was not fought. That is why the Islamic terrorism 'jihad' will continue until the West "offers peace". This was made clear by Bin Laden.)Â*

Those who oppose the messenger and become unbelievers will go to hell. 115

Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe and disbelieve again will never be forgiven by Allah. 137

For the hypocrites there will be a painful doom. 138

Allah will gather hypocrites and disbelievers into hell. 140

The hypocrites will be in the lowest part of hell and no one will help them there. 145

You must believe everything Allah and his messengers tell you. Those who don't are disbelievers and will face a painful doom. 150-151

For the disbelievers, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 161

God will guide disbelievers down a road that leads to everlasting hell. 168-169


.....hmmm.......i'd rather celibacy than this stuff which you will ofcourse call "islamophobic" but perhaps the readers can decide for themselves.
Â*

-the paradigm shifter......God's friend

[Coach]

satjas,
I was wondering how long it'll take you to come in and take the spotlightfrom Christianity to Islam...not long I guess. I knew that you'd not even bother to adress the question at hand...boy was I RIGHT!

I'll respond too are the ones that you have drawn OUT OF CONTEXT and I have adressed earlier but your royal daftness has no memory of...




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You asked....>"E.g. if it is such a 'peaceful' religion, then why does it encourage the killing of non-believers?"


many people who are against Islam use certain verses in the Qur'an to prove that Islam encourages killing of non-Muslims. Chapter 8:12 is a good example...

"Remember thy lord has inspired the angels with the message. Give firmness to the believers and instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite them above their necks and smite the fingertips of them." (The Qur'an 8:12)

This chapter refers to a specific event in history (and not everyday life) the Battle of Badr. This was a battle between polytheists Meccans and Muslims and this verse was revealed to the Muslims during that time. It does by NO MEANS apply to other people who weren't involved in the battle, but other non-Muslims use this verse to show taht Islam is a violent religion.

Another Chapter referred to to show that Islam is violent by non-Muslims is 47:4...

"When you encounter the unbelievers, Strike off their heads. Untill you have made a wide slaughter among them tie up the remaining captives." (The Qur'an 47:4)

This one is found in most Islamophobic sites, using it as evidence that Islam is violent. But in reality, this verse was revealed at a certain point in history, during the first year of Hijrah (Migration of Muslims from Mecca to Medina) when the Muslims were under *threat of extinction* by invasion from Mecca. This verse also applies (and reffers) to that point in history when the Muslims were under great threat from the polytheists of Mecca and NOT applied in everyday life.


The most commonly quoted verses which enemies of islam use to imply that Islam is violent is undoubtedly...

"When the sacred months have passed, kill the idolaters whereever you find them." (The Qur'an 9:5)

Enemies of Islam who refer to this verse slyly omit quoting verse 4 and 6 of the same chapter. Why? Because verse 4 says...

"But the treatires are not dissolved with those Pagans with whom you have entered into alliance and who have you subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God Loves the righteous."

And verse 6 says, "If one among the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him so that he may hear the Word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure."


What I try to prove with this is that one cannot take a verse revealed for a battle and insist it is if for the daily affairs of Muslims. It also shows that those who wish to attack Islam conveniently leave out certain verses to suit their objectives.
Dirty tactics are used against Islam to try and potray it as a violent religion, but those who lack knowledge of this great religion and the Qur'an fall vitim to such horrid slander.
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>Unbelievers will be tormented forever with fire. When their skin is burned off, a fresh skin will be provided. 56


The complete verse says...
“Indeed, those who disbelieve in our signs, we will roast them at a fire. As often as their skins are wholly burned, we will give them in exchange other skins, that they may taste the punishment.”
(QurÂ’an, 4:56)



People of older times wondered why the skin would be restored over and over again when in hellfire. Science later explained the knowledge behind this verse; that most of the nerve endings for pain and heat are located on the skin. Patients with third degree burns do not feel that much pain because the nerve endings on the skin are burnt and dried to the muscles or bones. The Qur'an teaches us that humans will be given new skin for the purpose of pain and that the torment in hellfire is nothing to take lightly for it is a horrible chastisement.

Â*


>.....hmmm.......i'd rather celibacy than this stuff which you
>will ofcourse call "islamophobic" but perhaps the readers can
>decide for themselves.

Well, the issue currently at hand is celibacy, when you wish to get back to the topic, we can discuss the impact the practise of celibacy has had on the Catholic Church and not least the alter-boys.

[Coach]

satjas,

>If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever
>you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 91
>( Offering peace in Islam means surrendering. All 67 out of 68
>wars of Muhammad were offensive. They are called qazwah
>(raid, ambush, sudden attack). That is how Muhammad waged his
>wars. He raided, massacred and looted civilians with no
>warning. The one defensive war, 'ditch' was not fought. That
>is why the Islamic terrorism 'jihad' will continue until the
>West "offers peace". This was made clear by Bin Laden.)Â*


LOOOOOL @ 67 out of 68 were offensive. Where do you get this crap from? Some of the 'offensive' wars were like the Battle of Tabuk against the Romans...the Byzantines avoided the confrontation and the Muslim army returned to Medina without any action. This took place in 630 AD and the Prophet (PBUH) died two years later. Some ignorant Islamophobes quote the battle of Mut'a as an offensive battles but they ignore the fact that it was started by the emperor of Byzantine.

Why don't you tell me which these 67 offensive wars were that were waged by the Prophet? Tell me where civilians were raided and looted by Muslims during the lifetime of Muhammad (PBUH).
Even the Occidentals and Orientalists have abandonedt he notion that Islam was spread by the sword but our faothfreedom dude here believes otherwise.

[Zelda]

i haven't had a chance to read the contributions vizuri, so i'll reply to you later, @ coach and satjas.

@ tm, wtva your experience with ' a certain muslim preacher I used to see while working in Kisumu', i hope you won't hold it against me. :)

i'm not interested in slinging mud at anyone's walls. but i do want to find out more about christianity and christians from a historical perspective. and it's not so that i can engage the issues of whether the people's thoughts or actions were correct or wrong. if you guys want to discuss that it's fine by me, i'll stay in the sidelines and 'watch'. but that was not my original purpose.

i'm sure i could simply go to google and do a search on "history of christianity", but that wouldn't be any fun, would it?

later, people.

[TeamManager]

@Coach,

CONTEXT
Three young men who had come from the church in Corinth to Ephesus, where Paul was, bringing with them a report on the conditions of the church. (Their names, Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus, are given to us in the last chapter of this letter.) They also brought with them a letter from the church, asking the apostle certain questions.
Question #1 on their list seems to be something like this: "In view of the sexual temptations we face in Corinth, is it perhaps better to take a vow of celibacy, to renounce marriage for life, and to withdraw from all contact with the opposite sex?" And Paul's answer is given to us in this very first verse: "It is well for a man not to touch a woman." Now that question probably arose from the difficulty that some were having with handling their sexual drives. They were living in a sexually-oriented society, very much like what we have in California today.
This question of theirs expressed the idea that, since sex drives create so many problems, it is best to get away and forget it all, and the apostle's answer is that there is nothing wrong with celibacy; it is all right to be single. He stresses that right at the beginning. Nevertheless, he says, because of fornications and the temptations that abound, marriage is preferable in a climate like Corinth.
Now, however, he says marriage is right too, and he is not talking about marriage and revealing his feelings about the married state in this passage primarily. He is really dealing with sex in marriage. Sex is the subject he is discussing throughout this whole context, and, therefore, he is discussing the proper use of the body's sexual powers. (He has covered sex outside of marriage in Chapter 6, and now he takes it up within marriage. If you want to know what Paul thought of marriage itself read the fifth chapter of Ephesians. There you have an incomparable passage of tremendous beauty setting forth the glory of marriage as the picture of Christ's relationship with his church.) Here the apostle says three things about sex within marriage. They are very important things, and we will take them one by one:The first one is suggested here in these opening two verses. Sex within marriage, the apostle says, does permit relief from sexual pressures. Now he does not suggest that you should get married in order to be free from sex drives. That should not be the major reason for marriage, and no part of Scripture ever teaches it as such. What the apostle is saying is that, when you are married, it does free you in this area. It helps to be married when you live in a sex-oriented society.

For more read
http://www.pbc.org/dp/stedman/1corinthians/3586.html

[TeamManager]

@Coach,

Tell me about this ...
1. the reason a muslim woman is made to drape in cloth to make her unattractive for the lustful manly eyes instead of the men being educated to control their lust......

2. Why do many muslims similarly miss out 'verses' and turn to violence/terror etc in the name of religion.

Do you think that your prophet lived and set a good 'sexual-life' example.