[Zelda]

hahah!!!
@ satjas, coach and tm, you ppl have outdone yourselves yet again!!! hahah. didn't realize i was unleashing a pandora's box. heheheh! your interesting tangents deserve some deep reflection.

@ jibril, that's a pretty interesting connection: makeda. Hmmh....
so you see a direct connection btw judaism as practised in ethiopia and christianity as practised in the same region?

@ tm: why john calvin and martin luther? do their ideas resonate with you?

@ coach: st paul's definitely a major influence.

it's kinda interesting how two of you named the traditional 'canonical' figures that many ppl can readily identify while jibril took another route. in fact, just before jibril posted, i was thinking of asking why not a single woman's name had been mentioned.

[TeamManager]

@Coach
Paul was clear on this point "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her ........For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.......each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. Ephesians 5:25-33

The Quran, however, claims that women are a man's possession and a tilth that they can enter into anyway they see fit.

Your wives are AS A TILTH UNTO YOU; SO APPROACH YOUR TILTH WHEN OR HOW YE WILL; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe. S. 2:223
WHEN or HOW?????-

In fact, the Quran encourages men to deny disobedient wives sex as a form of punishment, and beat them if they persist in disobedience:

"… But chide those for whose refractoriness ye have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and SCOURGE THEM: but if they are obedient to you then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" S. 4:34 Rodwell

Fair in the eyes of men is the love of things THEY COVET: WOMEN and sons; Heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses branded (for blood and excellence); and (wealth of) cattle and well-tilled land. Such are the POSSESSIONS of this world's life; but with Allah is the best of the goals (to return to). S. 3:14
Further proof that Islam views women as possessions for pleasure comes from Muhammad himself:

"The woman IS A TOY, whoever takes her let him care for her (or do not lose her)." (Ahmad Zaky Tuffaha, Al-Mar'ah wal- Islam [Dar al-Kitab al-Lubnani, Beirut, first edition, 1985], p. 180)

Umar Ibn al-Khattab once told his wife:
"You are a TOY, if you are needed we will call you." (Abu Bakr Ahmad Ibn 'Abd Allah Ibn Mousa Al-Kanadi,Al-Musanaf, Vol. 1 pt. 2, p. 263- see also Al-Ghazali, Ihy'a 'Uloum ed-Din, Vol. II, Kitab Adab al-Nikah [Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, Beirut], p. 52)

The Caliph 'Amru Bin al-'Aas said:
"Women are TOYS, so choose." (Kanz-el-'Ummal, Vol. 21, Hadith No. 919)

[Coach]

Zelda,
It is very easy for people to get out of topic. The topic at hand was Chrsitianity and the people who have had the most influence. I mentionned Paul and Augustine and offered the reasons for my choice...but satjas could not stick to the topic at hand and dragged Islam into this. TM also could not help and followed suit.


TeamManager,
I asked for what this verse means...I (and everyone else) understand it as it is meant to be understandand if there's a hidden meaning, please elucidate us...

------------------------------------------------------------------
32. I should like you to be free of anxieties."An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord.

33. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife'

34. and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

35. I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is it that Paul thought married people were "distracted" in serving the Lord?







>Your wives are AS A TILTH UNTO YOU; SO APPROACH YOUR TILTH
>WHEN OR HOW YE WILL; but do some good act for your souls
>beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him
>(in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who
>believe. S. 2:223
>WHEN or HOW?????-

Yes, when and how. If you want to copulate in the morning, noon, evening or night. You can also copulate to your taste, some prefer missionary and others are more adventerous. Off course you can see that I'm taking the liberty of explaining further what WHEN and HOW refers to. It is also explained in the same chapter that men should NOT have sex with thier women when they are menstruating and should NOT have anal sex. The same chapter (it's a long chapter with 286 verses) recommends that women suckle their children for about two years and that the fathers should provide maintenance for their family.






>In fact, the Quran encourages men to deny disobedient wives
>sex as a form of punishment, and beat them if they persist in
>disobedience:
>
>"… But chide those for whose refractoriness ye have cause to
>fear; remove them into beds apart, and SCOURGE THEM: but if
>they are obedient to you then seek not occasion against them:
>verily, God is High, Great!" S. 4:34 Rodwell


I think you missed the part where I explained all this when the question was raised. Nevertheless, I'll explain this verse once again...

The word "DARB" in Arabic (which some commentators have translated as "beat") has over 200 meanings in the Arabic language. One of the meanings of the word "darb" is also "leave alone" as a last resort when having a disagreement with the wife and all means have failed. All Muslims also try to emulate the Prophet Muhammad PBUH and he has NEVER beaten any of his wives. Some scholars translate this word to mean "beat lightly" as in some cases with a handkerchief; this is meant to be a symbolic way of showing displeasure and not a way to physically harm your wife. If you are not satisfied with this response and wish to discuss this issue further, I can provide you with tons of material that covers this issue.



>Fair in the eyes of men is the love of things THEY COVET:
>WOMEN and sons; Heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses
>branded (for blood and excellence); and (wealth of) cattle and
>well-tilled land. Such are the POSSESSIONS of this world's
>life; but with Allah is the best of the goals (to return to).
>S. 3:14

The word COVET means "desire" or "wish for" and this verse clearly says that the best goal (despite man loving to have a woman, children and wealth) is God. Do you disagree with this verse in anyway? Do you refute that men (humans) desire spouses, wealth and children? Do you dispute that it is better goal to plan to meet your Maker than hoard gold and silver? I don't understand what you intended by highlighting this verse.


The other sources you provided are not religious scriptures but works written by men who wrote according to their understanding. When women were given rights as humans in Islam, the Christians in the west viewed them as "less than dogs". Please initiate a thread on this issue if you wish to discuss it further, I would also provide verses from the Bible and how women are viewed.

Christians also believe that humans were kicked out of paradise because Eve tempted Adam with an apple (or a forbidden fruit) and ever since have been viewed as the reason why we are on earth suffering. The notion of original sin ahs led to women being viewed in Christianity as the channel the devil uses to get to men. This is a very interesting issue that I'd like to look further into...please initiate a thread where we can look deeper into the issue. Also the punishment of a rapist in the Bible is to be sentenced to marry the woman he raped...why is a woman punished by marrying her rapist?

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:28)"

[TeamManager]

>It is very easy for people to get out of topic.....but satjas
>could not stick to the topic at hand and dragged Islam into
>this. TM also could not help and followed suit.

@Coach
As long as you keep on pointing fingers .....you will never get......Sorry, this one I can't help you. In your misguided thinking, you give yourself and only yourself the right to 'explain the right context'. Anybody who disagrees with you is either Islamphobia or a Christian or even both.
Don't try too too hard, Let ALLAH fight his battles -i.e. if he is a true God.


>TeamManager,
>I asked for what this verse means...I (and everyone else)
>understand it as it is meant to be understandand if there's a
>hidden meaning, please elucidate us...

Everyone else?....Coach or just you alone.

Any honest person who reads the passage will definately know that Paul is simply explaining the advantages of being single and later he points out the pressures of being single.

Simple example, common sense tells me that a single man can concentrate on his daily night job as a DJ much more than a responsible married man can for obvious reasons....his divided thoughts between his family and work will distract him.

NO MYSTERY, a single man can easily jump on to a plane and go and serve the Lord in Mongolia, but for me who is married there is much to consider.


>Christians also believe that humans were kicked out of
>paradise because Eve tempted Adam with an apple (or a
>forbidden fruit) and ever since have been viewed as the >reason
>why we are on earth suffering. The notion of original sin ahs
>led to women being viewed in Christianity as the channel the
>devil uses to get to men.

Christian believe what? Christians view women as what? You are not serious.....please refrain from expressing your madarasa ideas about what Christians believe and present them as facts. Always remember that from day 1, Islam has always tried to disprove the Bible and Christianity.

Christian believe that man and woman were kicked out of Eden because they DID NOT OBEY GOD.
Christians view or love their wives as Jesus loved the Church i.e. to death.

>he raped...why is a woman punished by marrying her rapist?
I don't know but I guess the heavy fine and the 'he should be bound to marry her, and never to divorce her, how much soever she was below him, and how unpleasing soever she might afterwards be to him,' was to deter men from such vicious practices, which it is a shame that we are necessitated to read and write of.

[Coach]

TM,

>As long as you keep on pointing fingers .....you will never
>get......Sorry, this one I can't help you. In your misguided
>thinking, you give yourself and only yourself the right to
>'explain the right context'. Anybody who disagrees with you is
>either Islamphobia or a Christian or even both.
>Don't try too too hard, Let ALLAH fight his battles -i.e. if
>he is a true God.


Please be objective for once! NO ONE IS POINTING FINGERS!

Zelda asked something very simple and I am being crucified for answering. Forget what Islam says about women because that is not relevant here...open a thread if you feel you have soemthing to discuss about Islam just like I did previously instead of throwing the issue back and forth.

>
>>TeamManager,
>>I asked for what this verse means...I (and everyone else)
>>understand it as it is meant to be understandand if there's
>a
>>hidden meaning, please elucidate us...
>
>Everyone else?....Coach or just you alone.

Yeah, I'm hoping there's more than three people who've read the thread.



>Any honest person who reads the passage will definately know
>that Paul is simply explaining the advantages of being single
>and later he points out the pressures of being single.
>
>Simple example, common sense tells me that a single man can
>concentrate on his daily night job as a DJ much more than a
>responsible married man can for obvious reasons....his divided
>thoughts between his family and work will distract him.
>
>NO MYSTERY, a single man can easily jump on to a plane and go
>and serve the Lord in Mongolia, but for me who is married
>there is much to consider.


Cute analogy, but the fact remains that being single (read: celibate) is more desirable because one has no "distractions". To get a bit out of topic...Islam goes actually to the opposite direction and encourages the youth to get married as soon as they can because their hormones might lead them temptation and eventually to fornicate which is a major sin.

Paul says: "I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction."

It is loud and clear, he's doesn't want to be a spoilsport and put restraint on people but he is merely telling them that one shouldn't (get married) for "the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction".








>Christian believe what? Christians view women as what? You are
>not serious.....please refrain from expressing your madarasa
>ideas about what Christians believe and present them as facts.
>Always remember that from day 1, Islam has always tried to
>disprove the Bible and Christianity.
>
>Christian believe that man and woman were kicked out of Eden
>because they DID NOT OBEY GOD.
>Christians view or love their wives as Jesus loved the Church
>i.e. to death.

You must be taking the wrong Bible studies. Who did the serpent approach and mislead? If you read anything that says it was not Eve you should discard of your Bible. Go to Genesis 3:16-21 and read how God is said to have told Eve that he would increase the pain during childbearing becasue of what she did and Adam will be punished for LISTENNING TO HIS WIFE.





>>he raped...why is a woman punished by marrying her rapist?
>I don't know but I guess the heavy fine and the 'he should be
>bound to marry her, and never to divorce her, how much soever
>she was below him, and how unpleasing soever she might
>afterwards be to him,' was to deter men from such vicious
>practices, which it is a shame that we are necessitated to
>read and write of.


Oh how merciful! Punish the woman by sentencing her to a lifetime with her rapist!

Do you seriously believe this is a just sentence for the woman? Do you even see how merciless and inhumane this law is to the woman?