[Msoto]

There was a similar case that happened in texas, recently, and they decided in that situation to pull the plug.

I am not saying the plug should be pulled every time, but I believe that those resources for maintaining a vegetative state could be used elsewhere. Why do life prisoners receive food and work...because in their own cycle of life within the prison they are productive. Even her own husband..who we can argue knew her quite well felt and insisted that its better for the family to move on...rather than maintain the vegetative state.

It is my perception that people who can think can maintain their own bodily functions. Even people suffering dementia, unless they have catatonic schizophrenia they are able to think either coherently or incoherently. It is this ability to think that they have that makes it worthwhile caring for them. Thats my two cents

[ATLian]

Coach,

I'm all for euthanasia, especially if the patient wants it. Terri Schiavo told her husband to remove the feeding tube if she ever ended up in a state like she is in right now.

This case raises another issue - stem cell research. If the Bush government can allow for federal funding of stem cell research, I am sure that it can lead to most of these cases of brain damage being rectified. They need to allow for aborted foetuses to get a meaningful medical use, instead of being trashed in the garbage heaps. This research would give those chaps suffering from dementia and Alzheimers and spinal and nerve damage a legit chance of recovering.

[Coach]

ATLian,

>I'm all for euthanasia, especially if the patient wants it.
>Terri Schiavo told her husband to remove the feeding tube if
>she ever ended up in a state like she is in right now.

The problem with euthanasia (aka mercy killing, assisted suicide)is where do you draw the line? You might have your own ideals but where should a govt or a society draw the line? There ae millions of patients with grave dementia, I've seen these patients first hand and some are no different from Terri Schiavo. They are not killed but fed through tubes, drips etc., any means possible.

Let's say your mum, an aunt or any relative tells you..."ATLian, if I ever become confused and cannot make any decisions on my own, cannot eat or do my own personal hygiene when I'm old, please terminate my life." Would you follow these instructions just because they informed you of their wishes?

We frown upon relatively healthy people who try to or commit suicide and don't believe them when they say that their life is 'worthless'. Should we embrace this kind of thing?

It is very distressing when a loved is in a 'vegetative state' and loses their basic functions, but we shouldn't help them to commit suicide because this is what euthanasia is, assisted suicide.


>This case raises another issue - stem cell research. If the
>Bush government can allow for federal funding of stem cell
>research, I am sure that it can lead to most of these cases of
>brain damage being rectified. They need to allow for aborted
>foetuses to get a meaningful medical use, instead of being
>trashed in the garbage heaps. This research would give those
>chaps suffering from dementia and Alzheimers and spinal and
>nerve damage a legit chance of recovering.

Stem cell research is very broad and I personally think it is (together with the genome project) the future. One can get stem cells from the bone-marrow of children or adults but what creates an ethical dilemma is embryonic stem-cell research. I think it's ok when stem cells are gotten from fertility treatment clinics; these ones would be discarded anyway. The fear is, if this field is allowed by govts then scientists might create embryos solely to extract stem-cells and this is what all ethical (and religious) committees are opposed to.

[Coach]

Msoto,

>I am not saying the plug should be pulled every time, but I
>believe that those resources for maintaining a vegetative
>state could be used elsewhere.

I don't think that it is about 'resources' because the USA military budget can feed, cloathe, educate, give shelter and cure hundreds of millions of people around the world. If it's about 'recourses being used elsewhere', they could be used in helping the millions of illiterate people in the USA, the millions who live in descpicable conditions esp minorities like African-Americans etc. It's not about resources in this case mate.




Why do life prisoners receive
>food and work...because in their own cycle of life within the
>prison they are productive.

We are still talking about USA here aren't we? What is productive about locking millions of people who are beaten up, sodomised, hardenned by being around other criminals and those who are released at some stage become more hard-core than when they went in? Visit any maximum prison and you'll not see any productivity there but beefed up criminals.



>It is my perception that people who can think can maintain
>their own bodily functions. Even people suffering dementia,
>unless they have catatonic schizophrenia they are able to
>think either coherently or incoherently. It is this ability to
>think that they have that makes it worthwhile caring for them.
>Thats my two cents
>

Dementia is a disorder that has many different stages often with diffuse diagnosis. Advanced dementia is more common than you think. I've worked with patients in this state and it was the most challenging thing I have ever done! Some lie in bed 24 hrs with their contractured limbs, screaming all day. They don't know night from day and don't recognise even their own children. Some are incapable of swallowing and the food (or liquids) they are given end up in the lungs. This causes severe aspiration pneumonia which eventually leads to some patient being fed through a feeding tube or some left to die. I've always said that it is much better to die even at middle age rather than be in that state, but this should not made an option for the carers or relatives.

[ATLian]

>I
>think it's ok when stem cells are gotten from fertility
>treatment clinics; these ones would be discarded anyway. The
>fear is, if this field is allowed by govts then scientists
>might create embryos solely to extract stem-cells and this is
>what all ethical (and religious) committees are opposed to.

Can the scientists can actually create embryos, as compared to scientists using aborted embryos/foetuses? If they can, what's wrong with that? It will just be some gunk in a test-tube, it's not like it's a person.

I think the main reason religious pals are against stem cell research is because they see it as man playing god. That's the same reason why they are against cloning.

[satjas]

Hey guys!!!

remember the post i put up about atoms? and these religious zealots surprised me by mostly accepting what i wrote?.......now they will refute the same thing they agreed with before.......see, this woman is composed of these basic building blocks of life......atoms...the main force that keeps her together is built into these atoms....however the force that causes the atoms to behave the way they do is a causative force also known as the soul.....this force which is an energy can never ever be destroyed. There would be no lesser change in this force in letting her body release her soul. Euthanasia is only but a physical aspect. This soul which is part of the holy trinity also known as the mind body and soul has the complete freedom of choice to do whatever it wants without any interference from any other body. Without the influence of technology the body would soon cease to be naturally. That is natures way of balancing the physical aspect of this world.The Soul spirit is dealt with by a Higher Energy Force (God).

-the paradigm shifter......God's friend



The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[Coach]

ATLian,
>Can the scientists can actually create embryos, as compared to
>scientists using aborted embryos/foetuses? If they can, what's
>wrong with that? It will just be some gunk in a test-tube,
>it's not like it's a person.
>I think the main reason religious pals are against stem cell
>research is because they see it as man playing god. That's the
>same reason why they are against cloning.

The main resistance usually comes afrom the ethical committees which comprise of scientists. Those who are against it simply by saying 'man is playing God' do it out of ignorance. Why aren't they against heart-transplants or other procedures that 'interfere' with the way humans were created?

I attended an ethical committee discussion on cloning about ten years ago and the discussion is at the same level it was then. We know very little of the effects human cloning will have and the risk is too high to take. Also, there is no reason to clone a human being and most of the research in cloning is leaning towards 'therapeutic cloning'. This can be done to help couples who can't procreate or just like the recent research done to diabetes patients whose cells are taken and re-implanted on the 'Island of Langerhans' on the pancreas.

Therapeutic cloning will probably be very beneficial to mankind but the type ofcloning that sw Dolly come to the world is of no immediate benefit to humanity. Besides, it took almost 300 attempts to bring forth Dolly. The risks with cloning a human is not known and is an area researchers have no use in wasting funds on..it is better they try to fix the problems and illnesses humans face today rather than try to create new problems.


satjas,
Rant on mate!

[msapere]

cloning is for the future when we need billions to explore the galaxy or soldiers when were attacked by aliens
disclaimer `I was thinking out loud'

[Msoto]

>Msoto,
>
>>I am not saying the plug should be pulled every time, but I
>>believe that those resources for maintaining a vegetative
>>state could be used elsewhere.
>
>I don't think that it is about 'resources' because the USA
>military budget can feed, cloathe, educate, give shelter and
>cure hundreds of millions of people around the world. If it's
>about 'recourses being used elsewhere', they could be used in
>helping the millions of illiterate people in the USA, the
>millions who live in descpicable conditions esp minorities
>like African-Americans etc. It's not about resources in this
>case mate.
>
The humanistic resource for caring for such a patient is non existent. The monerary resource probably exists...however I believe every shilling spent one way has an opportunity cost...back to basic economics and that opportunity cost is far heavier than politics and more ethical in my perspective.
>
>
>Why do life prisoners receive
>>food and work...because in their own cycle of life within
>the
>>prison they are productive.
>
>We are still talking about USA here aren't we? What is
>productive about locking millions of people who are beaten up,
>sodomised, hardenned by being around other criminals and those
>who are released at some stage become more hard-core than when
>they went in? Visit any maximum prison and you'll not see any
>productivity there but beefed up criminals.

In US i am told they get to learn take courses, even graduate. Prisoners live their life as they would in the outside world, the only thing I think most lack is freedom. I think thats very pessimistic to expect that all criminals in any maximum prison are hard core and there is no possibility of reformation. That is why prisons exist because there is a possibility of reformation. Whereas for the vegetative state as of now there is no hope of restarting the thinking unless a miracle occurs.

>
>>It is my perception that people who can think can maintain
>>their own bodily functions. Even people suffering dementia,
>>unless they have catatonic schizophrenia they are able to
>>think either coherently or incoherently. It is this ability
>to
>>think that they have that makes it worthwhile caring for
>them.
>>Thats my two cents
>>
>
>Dementia is a disorder that has many different stages often
>with diffuse diagnosis. Advanced dementia is more common than
>you think. I've worked with patients in this state and it was
>the most challenging thing I have ever done! Some lie in bed
>24 hrs with their contractured limbs, screaming all day. They
>don't know night from day and don't recognise even their own
>children. Some are incapable of swallowing and the food (or
>liquids) they are given end up in the lungs. This causes
>severe aspiration pneumonia which eventually leads to some
>patient being fed through a feeding tube or some left to die.
>I've always said that it is much better to die even at middle

Such an exercise granted you great insight into people with dementia. I cannot challenge that insight for I have never worked with them. However back to my humanistic perspective, I think with great patience, perserverence, determination, relapse rates of dementia can be reduced and so can reformation from it, they still have after all their thinking patterns which are only disoriented to a very high level. This view-point of course is highly optimistic might it be implemented?
>age rather than be in that state, but this should not made an
>option for the carers or relatives.

[satjas]

Hey Coach

>satjas,
>Rant on mate!

for someone seemingly intelligent as yourself you cannot respect others point of view.....even clever people were duped by Hitler.......yours is no different. Thanks.

-the ranter....the paradigm shifter....God's friend.