[ATLian]

This is a very sad, but true story. Some psycho called Theodore Francis Frank kidnapped Ms. Amy Sue Seitz. He forced her to drink alcohol, raped her repeatedly, then tortured her horribly with a pair of pliers. He squeezed both her nipples in the pliers with such force that her nipples were left as flat as a paper. Then he peeled off her skin with the same pliers while she was still alive. From there he punched her head repeatedly and with such brute force that her skull cracked in numerous places resulting in a massive brain hemorrhage. Then he raped Amy again and again and when he was satisfied, he strangled her to death. He then threw her body into a trash heap on his way home. Some guy's dogs then found the body and ravaged it some more before their owner realized what the meat being ravaged was, and called the cops. Theodore Francis Frank was 43 years old, while Amy Sue Seitz was a 24 month old, 32 pounds heavy, 32 inches tall baby girl!

It says in the bible in Mathew 12:31-32, Mark 3:29 and Luke 12:10 that EVERY sin can be forgiven except one. This ONE unforgiveable sin is not the grave sins of pedophilia or infanticide committed by Theodore Francis Frank - the one sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Mathew 12:31-32: "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

I think - and this is the point of my post - that of all the sins god could have chosen to make unforgivable, he chose the wrong one.

According to the bible, if Theodore Francis Frank confessed his sins, asked for forgiveness and accepted Christ as his personal savior, he would go to heaven and live happily ever after with god, Abraham, Elijah, etc. On the other hand, let's assume that Sherry Roberts (Amy's mum) came and saw her daughters body. Of course she'd be totally devastated and grief-stricken. Let’s assume that in the heat of the moment she cursed the holy ghost, asking how the holy ghost could let that happen to her daughter. The bible says because Sherry blasphemed the Holy Ghost – even if the blasphemous words were uttered in a grief-stricken moment - she would be doomed to eternal hell fire. It doesn't matter if she had been a godly person before Amy's death, and continued to be a godly person after. It doesn't matter that she only blasphemed because of the grief of seeing her daughter's body. According to the bible and Jesus, Sherry would roast slowly forever in hell with Pol Pot and Hitler, while Theodore Francis Frank would spend the rest of his life in Heaven, playing nyabs with Angel Gabriel and Moses, and having Sunday coffee every once in a while with Mother Theresa. Heck, he might even bump into Amy there every once in a while! WTF?

My question is, why would god view the attrocities committed to Amy as forgivable, then view Sherry’s blasphemy as unforgivable? How can this view be fair, and how can a fair god take such a view. Of course I have a ton of other related questions - like what sort of god would create Theodore Francis Frank? Why didn’t god stop him as her nipples were being flattened to pulp? Why didn't god stop him before he raped her for the Nth time?

I don't believe in god, but if I did, there is no way I would worship a god with such twisted priorities, or a god who allows such things to happen!

[TeamManager]

ATLian,

Take some time and read all that happened to Jesus, God in flesh while He was on earth (especially during this Easter season).
If you think YOU (who has never experienced such torture like the small girl) can feel the 'pain' the girl felt just imagine how much Christ feels and can relate to that girl.

The question my friend should be why Jesus took YOUR & MY flith and shame of sin on the cross and yet he did not derserve it.

[ATLian]

>If you think YOU (who has never experienced such torture like
>the small girl) can feel the 'pain' the girl felt just imagine
>how much Christ feels and can relate to that girl.
>
>The question my friend should be why Jesus took YOUR & MY
>flith and shame of sin on the cross and yet he did not
>derserve it.


TM,

are you justifying what happened to Amy by saying that it's OK since Christ endured worse! I agree Christ was killed in a horrible way, but he died the same way those other 2 thugs next to him died. If I were to ask you to die on the cross exactly like Christ ama in the way Amy died, which way would you chose? I'd definitely die on the cross, coz what Amy went through was crazy.

The difference between Amy and Christ is Amy had NO choice. God/Jesus Christ on the other hand KNEW from Day One that he would make man, who would sin. God knew he would want to save man from this sin. In his infinite wisdom, god could have chosen any of an infinite number of ways to cleanse the world of sin. He'd have snapped his fingers, ama better still, he'd have chosen not to make the devil who brought sin around. Of all the infinite ways, he CHOSE the worst one possible - to have his only son tortured horribly then die on the cross as his way of saving man from this sin. It was all part of their perfect plan which they hatched a gazillion years ago, and which they had a gazillion years to modify if they felt it was too tortorous. That's why I cannot feel pity on Christ for what he went through because he and god totally willed it upon himself.

PLUS - 2 hours after he died he was in heaven with his dad, then 3 days later he was back alive on earth, then a month later or whatever he was back in heaven with his dad again. Amy never had such choices, she didn't meet her mum 2 hours later and she wasn't back on earth alive 3 days later. Since Amy was murdered in 1978, her mum has never seen her again! Therefore to compare the two is preposterous.

Then, you totally ignored my other questions, and chose to give me what I consider a generic Christian-apologist reply. To ask my questions again - We all know that every sin can be justifiable (like murder is a sin, but if committed in self-defense, it's perfectly justifiable). With that in mind, do you think it makes sense for an all-wise god to declare one sin to be unjustifiable regardless of the circumstances that led you to commit it? Do you think that it's fair that if TM mistakenly committed this sin today, despite living a godly life, he should be condemned to die in hell without the chance of forgiveness. Do you think that blasphemy of the holy ghost actually warrants to be a worse crime than what Theodore Frank did? Do you think that using my hypothetical scenario, Hitler and Pol Pot deserve to be in heaven while Sherry Roberts doesn't? Please answer me with your views on this without unleashing a generic "Christ Loves You" or "god works in mysterious ways" statement.

Anyway, I hope you can now see the reasons that led me to stop believing. When stuff didn't make sense, some people prayed more and more and became caught up in that quagmire; others just shrugged their shoulders and accepted stuff as it was; others like me decided that whatever was happening just didn't make sense and we chose to question, and the more we questioned, the more repelled we were.

[Msoto]

ATLian you have raised many points and my persepective is one that I hold might be considered tenancious but I think its deductic.

The bible says that even the devil can take excerpts from the bible and twist them to further their own end. I am not in a position to judge what sins can or cannot be forgiven, neither am I in a position to question which sins should or should not be forgiven.

The bible was written by human beings...within it is the message of God but one must be aware that also within it is the theological mindset of the time within which it was written. Thus viewpoints that were held then may not be the current viewpoints held today, i.e. the viewpoints undergo some altercation due to time and a change in thinking.

I think to understand the bible, to understand and believe God, requires one to have a humble perspective. Things are simple yet not so simple. For example it is erroneous to say that Jesus suffered less than Amy..why because you assume that Jesus and Amy are the same. That in itself is a fallacy. The comparison sample you are using isnt the same. If another baby was then crucified and underwent the same torture as Jesus did and there was a way of measuring the pain intensities before death then you can make your CAUSAL statements. The causal statement that AMY underwent more suffering than JESUS. See this statement that you stated is simply an opinion with no factual or experimental evidence.

It is wrong to simply pick one passage from the bible...to remove it out of context in which it was written and then correlate it to life's current challenges. Didn't the devil tempt Jesus in the same way? I don't know what is forgiveable or not forgiveable....I am not the one that makes that decision. That decision is made by God..i believe in him..and suffice to say...if i believe that i have honestly repented...then i can also believe that i will be forgiven. Again that is not to say that i will go around sinning because i know i will be forgiven...but rather that life is a challenge and with its challenges i should not loose faith, when i slip or sin but rather maintain a positive and religious attitude in my daily life.

[satjas]

Hey Msoto

This may not have been addressed to me but when my conscience is pricked i speak.

>The bible says that even the devil can take excerpts from the
>bible and twist them to further their own end.

This man made clause makes it easy to avoid any conflict of thought........its like saying i am right and anyone who doesn't agree with me has twisted what i have said. The truth is a perfect God would write a fool-proof text........but then that would be unfair to millions of blind people on this earth, unless ofcourse they learnt braille, trusting whoever taught them........so to overcome all this God communicates with everyone through feelings. Even the blind, deaf and dumb people feel exactly the same way in their hearts like everyone else. To me that is a fair God, don't you think?

>The bible was written by human beings...within it is the
>message of God but one must be aware that also within it is
>the theological mindset of the time within which it was
>written. Thus viewpoints that were held then may not be the
>current viewpoints held today, i.e. the viewpoints undergo
>some altercation due to time and a change in thinking.

That is why we as a society should get together and discard the trash in many of our 'books' and update them to this day and age....are you Msoto willing to do that???

>>that Jesus suffered less than Amy..why because you assume that
>Jesus and Amy are the same. That in itself is a fallacy. The
>comparison sample you are using isnt the same.

In truth they are the same, its not a fallacy, its an apt comparison. Can you tell us why it is not the same....with logical sense???

> If another baby
>was then crucified and underwent the same torture as Jesus did
>and there was a way of measuring the pain intensities before
>death then you can make your CAUSAL statements. The causal
>statement that AMY underwent more suffering than JESUS. See
>this statement that you stated is simply an opinion with no
>factual or experimental evidence.

Actually there is also no evidence that Jesus underwent more suffering......In fact if we rely on what is written in the bible then there are plenty more people in this world who have undergone worse suffering......some have been cut limb by limb whilst alive, skinned alive or burnt alive.....now that, dude is agony. Like ATLian said, the two guys next to Jesus were also on crosses undergoing the same punishment, although they were not tortured beforehand. And it does not mean that the more one has suffered the more one has a right to heaven. And ofcourse you will not believe when i say that Jesus's body suffered whilst his mind was in constant bliss.......hard to understand? ask me and i'll explain how that is possible.

>It is wrong to simply pick one passage from the bible...to
>remove it out of context in which it was written and then
>correlate it to life's current challenges.

No!! not that old 'out of context' scenario again!!!! Why can't any sentence in the bible hold it's own truth????

>...but rather that life is a
>challenge and with its challenges i should not loose faith,
>when i slip or sin but rather maintain a positive and
>religious attitude in my daily life.

Life is not a challenge.......things in life seem like challenges, but once you get there it simply becomes another experience. Life is about enjoying the experience.

-The paradigm shifter.......God's friend.

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[dudette]

Truth be told- We have some serious brains in the Religion sect. dang! This is sooooo deep you guyz!

[Msoto]

>Hey Msoto
>
>This may not have been addressed to me but when my conscience
>is pricked i speak.
>
>>The bible says that even the devil can take excerpts from
>the
>>bible and twist them to further their own end.
>
>This man made clause makes it easy to avoid any conflict of
>thought........its like saying i am right and anyone who
>doesn't agree with me has twisted what i have said. The truth
>is a perfect God would write a fool-proof text........but then
>that would be unfair to millions of blind people on this
>earth, unless ofcourse they learnt braille, trusting whoever
>taught them........so to overcome all this God communicates
>with everyone through feelings. Even the blind, deaf and dumb
>people feel exactly the same way in their hearts like everyone
>else. To me that is a fair God, don't you think?


In my opinion being fair is a state that various by degrees depending on your knowledge base. The more knowledge you have about that situation the better you are fair.
Therefore i agree with you God is fair.

>>The bible was written by human beings...within it is the
>>message of God but one must be aware that also within it is
>>the theological mindset of the time within which it was
>>written. Thus viewpoints that were held then may not be the
>>current viewpoints held today, i.e. the viewpoints undergo
>>some altercation due to time and a change in thinking.
>
>That is why we as a society should get together and discard
>the trash in many of our 'books' and update them to this day
>and age....are you Msoto willing to do that???

I am willing to do whatever God has planned for me to do...If my life turns out to be involved in the field of theological studies then I would hopefully change many of our 'books' with God's help. However i believe my calling..i may be wrong...is to implement God's love..faith good works in everyday life.

>>>that Jesus suffered less than Amy..why because you assume
>that
>>Jesus and Amy are the same. That in itself is a fallacy. The
>>comparison sample you are using isnt the same.
>
>In truth they are the same, its not a fallacy, its an apt
>comparison. Can you tell us why it is not the same....with
>logical sense???

I refer to suffering as quantifiable. Jesus and amy are both human beings. Jesus has experienced life...he has probably built a threshold of pain...through the behaviour of learning. Amy on the other hand is still a baby she may or may not have built any threshold of pain.
Peoples threshold of pain are different...and pain correlates to suffering. So if peoples thresholds of pain are different how can we then say that they suffered the same amount?

>>was then crucified and underwent the same torture as Jesus
>did
>>and there was a way of measuring the pain intensities before
>>death then you can make your CAUSAL statements. The causal
>>statement that AMY underwent more suffering than JESUS. See
>>this statement that you stated is simply an opinion with no
>>factual or experimental evidence.
>
>Actually there is also no evidence that Jesus underwent more
>suffering......In fact if we rely on what is written in the
>bible then there are plenty more people in this world who have
>undergone worse suffering......some have been cut limb by limb
>whilst alive, skinned alive or burnt alive.....now that, dude
>is agony. Like ATLian said, the two guys next to Jesus were
>also on crosses undergoing the same punishment, although they
>were not tortured beforehand. And it does not mean that the
>more one has suffered the more one has a right to heaven. And
>ofcourse you will not believe when i say that Jesus's body
>suffered whilst his mind was in constant bliss.......hard to
>understand? ask me and i'll explain how that is possible.
>

I never said Jesus underwent more suffering or Amy underwent more suffering. All I am expressing is that we have no way of quantifying suffering and because we don't have anyway of quantifying suffering we cann't just say they are the same...

>>It is wrong to simply pick one passage from the bible...to
>>remove it out of context in which it was written and then
>>correlate it to life's current challenges.
>
>No!! not that old 'out of context' scenario again!!!! Why
>can't any sentence in the bible hold it's own truth????
>

Well i am not the one who started that argument...however i believe it holds water. In that everything must be interpreted in context. Even when Jesus was being tested by the devil, the devil did use the scripture. And because of that i believe people must be wary in simply picking lines and inserting them to life's situations.

>>...but rather that life is a
>>challenge and with its challenges i should not loose faith,
>>when i slip or sin but rather maintain a positive and
>>religious attitude in my daily life.
>
>Life is not a challenge.......things in life seem like
>challenges, but once you get there it simply becomes another
>experience. Life is about enjoying the experience.
>
>-The paradigm shifter.......God's friend.
>
>The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind
>denies it.

Well...for christians life should be a challenge..because you are struggling to convert others...to hold your faith in a world filled with non-believers quick to ridicule, annoy, frustrate, outcast and disprove you. In other words without realizing life itself is an everyday struggle.
I strongly belief that without struggle there is no enjoyment....there is nothing as sweet as sweat....that sweat is even sweater when one is living a virtuous life. For you feel content with life's challenges and are not afraid to face them.....because you know you are never alone....there is God.

Even africans had this mindset when they built the pyramids to symbolize self actualization. The base would symbolize people and the daily needs but the tip...which would summarise completeness symbolized spirituality.

[satjas]

Hey Msoto

i am really knackered now......i will certainly coment on your pointers later, thanks.

-the paradigm shifter.....God's friend.

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[TeamManager]

>TM,
>
>are you justifying what happened to Amy by saying that
>it's OK since Christ endured worse!

No, I am not justifying what happened. My point is '...don't you think that Jesus will be in a BETTER position to UNDERSTAND the pain rather than ME & YOU?'. I might be wrong, but apart from the sad story looking to you as a potential 'God-is-bad' story, you really DON'T CARE about this girl.

I recently took my Vietnamese friend (for here first time) to church and she asked me one puzzling question during the service....'Have all these young women and men in Church been sexually violated in the past?...I asked 'why the question?'. She explained to me that all she knew about the Church in her hometown is that it has taken care of many such cases. (PS. The catholic fathers violating kids in their care have a serious case)

>The difference between Amy and Christ is Amy had NO choice.

What happened to Amy is so so bad. Not minimizing her pain, have you ever imagined what Jesus underwent on the cross. Leave even the physical pain (although it is bad enough by itself), remember Jesus (from eternity past) had never been touched by the flith and shame of SIN and for a moment in time my sin, your sin, everyone's sin and even Amy's rapist sin were going to be laid on him. THATs really PAIN.
Get passed the physical torture on that easter day and see a Jesus who you have never met.

My friend, all these things have been caused by us using our free will to make the wrong choice.


>To ask my questions again - We all know that every sin can be justifiable

Say WHO? The Bible is clear on the penalty of sin.


>do you think it makes sense for an all-wise god to
>declare one sin to be unjustifiable regardless of the
>circumstances that led you to commit it? Do you think
>that it's fair that if TM mistakenly committed this sin
> today, despite living a godly life, he should be
>condemned to die in hell without the chance of
>forgiveness. Do you think that blasphemy of the holy
>ghost actually warrants to be a worse crime than what
>Theodore Frank did?

What is the work of the Holy Spirit? ....TO CONVICT PEOPLE OF THEIR SIN, yes I mean SIN. OK!. Therefore if you don't respond to the leaing of the Holy spirit, then how will you even start taking about repending concerning other sins.
If you dont get onto the bus, how do you start taking about alighting at the wrong destination.



>Do you think that using my hypothetical scenario, Hitler
>and Pol Pot deserve to be in heaven while Sherry Roberts
>doesn't? Please answer me with your views on this >without unleashing a generic "Christ Loves You" or "god >works in mysterious ways" statement.

FIRST, NOBODY derserves to go to heaven. NOBODY!! Not even mother Teresa or even Mary the mother of Jesus. Its not how good you are or how bad you are that determines where you go.
(For a credit system, please ask muslims and other religions).

Its all about confessing your sins (i.e agree with God) and turning away from your sin and asking God to cleanse (even though you don't and will never deserve it).

>
>Anyway, I hope you can now see the reasons that led me to stop believing.

I am not arrogant when I say this ...YOU HAVE NEVER KNOW THE REAL CHRIST i.e a relationship....maybe just a form of religious christianity.

[ATLian]

>>To ask my questions again - We all know that every sin can be
>justifiable
>
>Say WHO? The Bible is clear on the penalty of sin.


TM,

by saying "every sin can be justifiable" I meant that not every act that is first perceived to be a sin is necessarily a sin. If you study the reason for some sins, you'll realize that they shouldn't count as sins because of the circumstances surrounding them. e.g. killing is a sin, and you will go to hell if you kill. But, if you killed someone in self-defense, then that sin of killing is justifiable, and you won't go to hell for that. Lying is also a sin. But if some killers came looking for your dad to finish him off, and you lied to them that you don't know where your dad is (when you know very well he's hidden below the bed), then that lie isn't a sin. It was necessary to save a life, and I don't see how god can punish you for that.

For every sin you can name, I can come up with a scenario where it would be a justifiable sin. So my point is, how can an all wise god decide that one sin will always be punishable by death without forgiveness, even if there are some scenarios where this sin can be justified e.g. the example I gave using Amy's mum.