[Coach]

I came across the work of a man called Melissus, one of the earlier Greek philosophers. I thought he said some interesting things and you sprung to mind. Here is what he wrote...


According to him... Being or the One cannot come into being, and change, move, have pain or any multiplicity or divisibility. If Being had a beginning, it would have been from Not‑Being, but nothing can come out of Not‑Being. If Being had no beginning, it cannot have an end, for if nothing can come out of Not‑Being, nothing can go into Not‑Being. Therefore, Being has been from eternity and is everlasting. There is no creation and no destruction. Being is also infinite in magnitude, for if limited, it must be limited by Not‑Being which is impossible. In Being there is no change, for if Being altered, then what was before must have passed away or become Not‑Being and what was not before, i.e., Not‑Being, must have come into being which both are impossible. ThereÂ*fore there is no rarefaction and no condensation. Being cannot move, for there is no Void for it to move into. Being cannot feel pain, for pain is felt through the addition or subtraction of something, i.e., by not remaining the same, but Being always remains the same.

[satjas]

hey Coach,

Do we agree that even philosophy is something God created???

>I came across the work of a man called Melissus, one of the
>earlier Greek philosophers. I thought he said some interesting
>things and you sprung to mind. Here is what he wrote...

Thanks for remembering me......it is not easy to forget one of the sources of truths.


>According to him... Being or the One cannot come into being,
>and change, move, have pain or any multiplicity or
>divisibility.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
<infinity you and me infinity>


Can you understand this timeline? Infact this timeline, which is longer than the longest line you can ever imagine joins on both ends.....in effect becoming a circle.....a continous process with no beginning or end. Now imagine that this line is simply energy, something that we all agree cannot be created or destroyed, only change form...even science has proved this. This energy that we find hard to comprehend the source of we shall call The One. On earth we usually get boosted by energy from the sun, which explains why older generations venerated the sun....some still do. Without some sort of energy input into our world, which is just one in millions, we could be wiped out of the universe.

> If Being had a beginning, it would have been
>from Not?Being, but nothing can come out of Not?Being.

The principle fault in this theory is assuming a beginning and an end to start with and then qualifying why these two cannot be. Perhaps it is better explained by saying that Being was All There Was, there was Nothing apart from All There Is. And if one was to assume that nothing existed outside The All There Is would be implying that even This Nothing existed within the All There Is for All There Is is All There Was.

> If Being had no beginning, it cannot have an
>end, for if nothing can come out of Not?Being, nothing
>can go into Not?Being. Therefore, Being has been from
>eternity and is everlasting.

Here again is the truth....everything can come out of All There Is and still remain within The All There Is because EVERYTHING sums up All There Is and that is why it is a continous line or circle of life. Can you understand that Nothing does not exist?? Nothing can simply not Be.

> There is no creation and no
>destruction.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, true but changes form which is what the human being sees upon 'death'. When the soul leaves the body and mind (holy trinity) it experiences the truth of no creation or destruction of life. Life is not a process of creation but of discovery because All There Is is already here, we simply do not know It. This is also what religions use to 'create' fear amonsgt the masses for if they suddenly realized that their Soul cannot be destroyed since it is a Part of All There Is, they would realize the truth...the truth that would set them free!!!!!

>Being is also infinite in magnitude, for if
>limited, it must be limited by Not?Being which is
>impossible.

Not-Being does not exist because it cannot be a part of All There Is......but if you insist it does then it will still have to be a part of All There Is.

>In Being there is no change, for if Being altered,
>then what was before must have passed away or become
>Not?Being and what was not before, i.e.,
>Not?Being, must have come into being which both are
>impossible.

You are now looking through the Human eye in which death is supposed to be a Not-being, but i have already told you Being is All there Is and can never be destroyed...but can change form.Life, energy, God changes form constantly.

> ThereÂ*fore there is no rarefaction and no
>condensation.

The big bang theory explains how spread out the universe became and the truth of the matter is that some constellations are constantly 'condensing' for want of a better word and turning back into energy......light from stars that do not exist anymore is still being seen at the Hubble telescope.

>Being cannot move, for there is no Void for it
>to move into.

Void cannot exist and thus the One moves/changes into Itself for It Is All There Is.

>Being cannot feel pain, for pain is felt through
>the addition or subtraction of something, i.e., by not
>remaining the same, but Being always remains the same.

Pain is a sensation......if one's nerves were to be severed then one would not feel the pain..in fact its the mind that analyses what pain is 'bigger' or 'lesser'. Thus if one were to control one's mind one could control the threshold of pain........that is why Jesus was seen by humans to be suffering on the cross whereas he was at One with The All There Is......where pain is simply just another experience.


-the paradigm shifter.......God's friend.

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[Coach]

Jeez! This wasn't meant for you to disect and critisize. The man lived thousands of years ago.

[satjas]

Hey Coach et all,

>Jeez! This wasn't meant for you to disect and critisize. The
>man lived thousands of years ago.


That is why we are different.....i never take things at face value, or follow something blindly that someone may have written thousands of years ago.....i like to understand what is being said......and not everything that one does not agree with is called 'to critisize'. I believe in the truth, but even higher is truthful living.i do not become all defensive and claim to be the victim as you have often done in your posts Coach.....i have not yet encountered a situation where you have proved my truth to be the truth or dissected it enough to lay it as bare lies.......i can almost hear you say 'you are not in the business of critisizing others' just as many a guilty party would say to bail out. I have had enough experience in life to be able to link up science, logic, philosophy and life to see the amazing colours of God. I have told you this before (and TM) that if you were to ever read your own posts with an open mind you would realize just how narrow minded your scope is. When i tell you things that seem to good to be true you believe just that.....and do you know why? Because your concept of God will never allow you to experience how true good is.....please note my use of words carefully.....because your schools have taught - if you are good you are true.....whereas in reality if you are true then only can you be 'good'. Yet even at that point i hesitate to add that there is no 'right' or 'wrong' or 'good' or 'bad' per se since you have yet to understand the concept of relativity. Everything is relative. What could have been good for people 1500 yrs ago may be bad at this moment especially when the world is more aware of things now. I find it a responsiblity to remind others of Who we Really Are........yet some of Us are being sucked deeper and deeper into the vortex of religious texts that anything outside 'what has been written' is viewed as 'not the word of' God. Thus it is very difficult and rather foolish to try and discuss any rational debate about anything with people of one school of thought. I find it rather amazing that some people like yourself would claim that God can make something 'out of nothing' and refuse to believe that this here , my post, could be one of those happenings. You and TM and Volina and all people of 'righteousness' always deny God simply because what you see and experience and feel does not go according to your 'books'.You deny yourselves the experience of true joy, of complete freedom with no limits or any judgements whatsoever, of the acceptance of other truths than your own, of your ability to become One with those you cannot eat, sleep or have fun with. But you guys also claim that you are the right people, God's people..the ones who have understood the truth.....you could never be far from the truth. You cannot experience new thoughts when you are desperately holding on to older thoughts....the very thoughts that deny you your true self. I have not been on mashada long enough to understand everything about everyone. However i have read very unreasonable posts.....posts that science would rip apart, posts that rationale would tear down and posts that are written out of blind faith. Despite ATLians 'colourful' language he has very good analogies that none of you ( ye people of religious Beliefs) have been able to reason out. Despite his lack of acceptance of God he does in fact balance out reason....i respect people like that. Zelda has been a good contributor......there's alot of knowledge from that person.....she knows i know that.Volina is in the group of people who can justify their position in society because of what she has got both materially and mentally....she has yet to understand that she is where she is because she chose to, not because she prayed for it........think about it...why pray to God when God already knows what you want?? In fact God doesn't want prayers.....God simply wants us to communicate with God....the idea of God's letters (ie bible kooran etc) is wrought with fear.......why would i want to read someone's old letters when i could enjoy their VERY Presence right there right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would talk to that person for JC's or Mo's sake!!!!!!!!!!!! I am at the point of evaluating my life once again......the time has come......We are going to have a long chat JC, Mo, BU-Dahdy, God and myself......i shall tell y'all what transpired.........and before Volina starts telling you guys i'm another false prophet i ask you to critically analyse and tear apart what i've said....for in doing so will you know the truth.....

-the paradigm shifter......God's friend.

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[Coach]

>Hey Coach et all,
>
>>Jeez! This wasn't meant for you to disect and critisize. The
>>man lived thousands of years ago.


I said this in a light-hearted manner but it seems to have come across as belittling your views. My intentions were to SHARE with you those views, I didn't say I AGREE with them or DISAGREE with them. Also, I haven't heard the time to go through it and give your side of the story a clear thought. I was suprised that you were so vigorous in openning his words up and giving your view on the matter. Like I said...I didn't post it as a TRUTH but merely as a passage that causes one to reflect.




> I believe in the truth, but
>even higher is truthful living.i do not become all defensive
>and claim to be the victim as you have often done in your
>posts Coach...

I don't play victim but always forced to explain the stand of islam on different matters because you (above otehrs) have spread falsehood about Islam. It wasn't being defensive (although you see it that way) but merely explaining the CORRECT Islamic point of view on a matter.



..i have not yet encountered a situation where
>you have proved my truth to be the truth or dissected it
>enough to lay it as bare lies....

Funny that you say that. Most of my posts (if you look around) are adressing YOU and adressing and responding to the accusations you've thrown around especially from faithfreedom.org.

To be honest, you are the one who's been taking the mickey out of what I write. When I posted an an article explaining the pillars of Islam and explaining them to non-Muslims, you openned your own thread and shared with us what you called your own pillars (re-adjusting the words I used).

I take what people say seriously and if you look at the two posts I made, one is running on the 7th page and the other on the 10th page. In those threads, I've responded to EVERYONE who had queries about Islam or anything relating to what I'd posted. I don't expect them to agree with me all the time, but I took the time to explain how I see things and how they are explained in Islam.



> I have had enough
>experience in life to be able to link up science, logic,
>philosophy and life to see the amazing colours of God.

Wow! So can I.


I have
>told you this before (and TM) that if you were to ever read
>your own posts with an open mind you would realize just how
>narrow minded your scope is.

Please show me anything that can be deemed "narow-minded" in my contributions.



When i tell you things that seem
>to good to be true you believe just that.....and do you know
>why? Because your concept of God will never allow you to
>experience how true good is...

Well this is your opinion. I wouldn't go to the lenghts of saying that about someone because only they know how they experience God and the creation. The gnostics in Islam say the same thing when they do their 'soul-travelling'...and I NEVER question or think less of them. On the contrary, I have much respect for their views on the Diety because there are many ways of experiencing God.



..please note my use of words
>carefully.....because your schools have taught - if you are
>good you are true.....whereas in reality if you are true then
>only can you be 'good'.

Well the Islamic view is the same as yours here but you don't know that. Your relationship with God and your views of Him has to be true for your actions to have any substance. It is what is in the heart that matters more than what one does (good deeds). What's the point of doing good if you don't believe in it? It would be like a priest who doesn't truely believe in God, even if he heads mass every Sunday, his actions are useless because he is NOT tru.



Yet even at that point i hesitate to
>add that there is no 'right' or 'wrong' or 'good' or 'bad' per
>se since you have yet to understand the concept of relativity.
>Everything is relative. What could have been good for people
>1500 yrs ago may be bad at this moment especially when the
>world is more aware of things now.

True! Do you know why westerners love to have weddings in June? It is because they bathe in May. The bride and groom want to smell good and look tidy by the time they tie the knot. But with microbiology, we know about the dangers of having bad hygiene, so what was the norm back in the medieval times is seen as 'disgusting' today.

But there are some things that never change even with time. For example, stealing, lying, cheating, killing etc have always been abhored by humans. Likewise, some good things never change, treating others with kindness, helping the poor, curing the sick etc.


I find it a responsiblity
>to remind others of Who we Really Are........yet some of Us
>are being sucked deeper and deeper into the vortex of
>religious texts that anything outside 'what has been written'
>is viewed as 'not the word of' God. Thus it is very difficult
>and rather foolish to try and discuss any rational debate
>about anything with people of one school of thought. I find it
>rather amazing that some people like yourself would claim that
>God can make something 'out of nothing' and refuse to believe
>that this here , my post, could be one of those happenings.


I know that you may have those views about Christianity, but nothing in practical aspect of the Islamic faith goes against logic. We as Muslims are not obliged just to follow the scriptures but urged to use our intellect. As I told you before, you question the validity of the Qur'an but the Qur'an actually invites people to challenge it and to try and find faults in it. It even challenges humans to try and write something like it. This doesn't sound like we are told to follow somethaing blindly does ait?



>You and TM and Volina and all people of 'righteousness' always
>deny God simply because what you see and experience and feel
>does not go according to your 'books'.


I for one do not even agree with TM in the understanding of God. He thinks that we don't have the same God. He talks about 3 gods in 1 etc whereas you believe in One God. In that aspect, you are closer to me than he is, but you keep putting us in the same category.








You cannot experience new thoughts when you are
>desperately holding on to older thoughts....the very thoughts
>that deny you your true self.

How untrue! I read other thoughts all the time...what was I doing reading old greek philosophy which led to this discussion? I'm not a philosophy student but someone who likes to read about how others explain metaphysics, ethics, government etc. I'll be holding to my thoughts because I have not seen any that beats it in any way...whether it's theology, science, social aspects, ethics etc. Believe me, I wouldn't be a Muslim if I thought another ideology was better...and you would be a Muslim if you thought your views were inferior and islam was better. We hold on to what we know and what we find to explain things in the best way.



I have not been on mashada long
>enough to understand everything about everyone. However i have
>read very unreasonable posts.....posts that science would rip
>apart, posts that rationale would tear down and posts that are
>written out of blind faith.

Please show me one such post by me.


Despite ATLians 'colourful'
>language he has very good analogies that none of you ( ye
>people of religious Beliefs) have been able to reason out.
>Despite his lack of acceptance of God he does in fact balance
>out reason....i respect people like that.

He can't show me with demostrative evidence and without any doubt that there isn't a God, but he asks that those who believe in God prove his existence. I respect everyone here, no matter what they believe in.



Zelda has been a
>good contributor......there's alot of knowledge from that
>person.....she knows i know that.

Zelda is a HE.


Volina is in the group of
>people who can justify their position in society because of
>what she has got both materially and mentally....she has yet
>to understand that she is where she is because she chose to,
>not because she prayed for it........think about it...why pray
>to God when God already knows what you want??


Who is Volina?


In fact God
>doesn't want prayers.....God simply wants us to communicate
>with God....the idea of God's letters (ie bible kooran etc) is
>wrought with fear.......


Well..if we are talking about the Qur'an, then you missed a lot if you only saw fear. There are many verses that talk about the beauties of creation and explains how things work. There are verses that deal with embryology, oceanolgy, history, sociology, ethics, physics, philosophy, predictions, mathematics, cosmology, astronomy, biology etc etc.



Peace.

[TeamManager]

>I for one do not even agree with TM in the understanding >of God. He thinks that we don't have the same God. He >talks about 3 gods in 1 etc whereas you believe in One >God. In that aspect, you are closer to me than he is, but >you keep putting us in the same category.


@Satjas, Coach

Its nice to see that you have not changed your description of 'a narrow-minded person', i.e. as long as they disagree with you.

Coach, since I came to mashada i have always insisted that ALLah and the God in the Bible are DIFFERENT and OPPOSITE.
Guess you are starting to see that you and satjas are in the same boat.

[Zelda]

@TM: you insist on distinguishing btw Allah in the Qur'an and God in the Bible? me i insist on the opposite claim: they are very similar. i also insist on an additional claim: you, satjas and coach are very similar. heheh. welcome back!!!

(running for cover)

[ATLian]

This is one of the few times I agree with TM - from what the Bible and the Koran say, God Jehovah and God Allah cannot be the same guy.

[Coach]

>@Satjas, Coach
>
>Its nice to see that you have not changed your description of
>'a narrow-minded person', i.e. as long as they disagree with
>you.
>
>Coach, since I came to mashada i have always insisted that
>ALLah and the God in the Bible are DIFFERENT and OPPOSITE.
>Guess you are starting to see that you and satjas are in the
>same boat.


TM,
The only thing that satjas and I have in common in comparison to you is that he believes in One God, and so do I...but you believe in 3 and one in human form. Even some Hindus believe that all their 350 million gods are different entities/qualities/forms of One Supreme Being, how different are you from them since the Christianity you preach cannot be called "monotheistic"?

[TeamManager]

>TM,
>...but you believe in 3 and one in human form.

My Friend Coach,

For you to start understanding what I believe or what Christians believe, please for once get out of your madarasa (misinformed) classes and thought pattern.