[Coach]

TM,
Oh dear! I'm a grown man and haven't attended madrasa for the past 18 years. I went to a Catholic School for 12 years and know a lot about Christianity, so spare me your condescending comments dear fellow.

[TeamManager]

Coach,

I beg you to take time and read the following interesting article. Don't be afraid, it will not bite.
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Author..._of_god_bq.htm

The Son of God in the Bible and the Qur'an
THE QUR'AN'S PRESENTATION OF THE "CHRISTIAN TRINITY"

[Coach]

>Coach,
>
>I beg you to take time and read the following interesting
>article. Don't be afraid, it will not bite.
>http://answering-islam.org.uk/Author..._of_god_bq.htm
>
>The Son of God in the Bible and the Qur'an
>THE QUR'AN'S PRESENTATION OF THE "CHRISTIAN TRINITY"
>


TM,
Believe me, I've browsed and read this site more than many people (including you) because they attribute many false things to Islam. There is even a site set up by some Muslims to refute their claims and there you can find answers to the queries (accusations) they pose. The site is www.answering-christianity.org and there is a response to every accusation in the Islamophobic link you posted above.


I read the link you gave me and as usual, they produced THEIR intepretation of the Qur'an. They say...

"However, Jesus' Sonship in the Bible which is always spiritual in nature is never presented as diminishing God's power or authority, denying the Oneness of God nor making himself a rival to God. The will, authority and power of Jesus' divine spirit is never in conflict with the will, authority and power of God, because Jesus was the Word. This eternal Word of God became flesh without ceasing to be God or beginning to compete with God."


Even they don't seem to understand this foreign concept of trinity that was introduced to Christianity many years after the death of Jesus PBUH. Check out this link and read how the early Christians rejected the trinity and about how the words in the Bible were changed to sound the way they do today...

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac7.htm

[TeamManager]

COACH,

Since you have no intention of getting informed, I rest for now.
I understand where you and the Koran are coming from. For your faith to be 'true' you have to claim that Christianity is false.
My purpose was always to let you know that ALLAH and God in the Bible are different. The God in the Bible LOVES us and provided a way back to him. Allah, still leaves you in a stranded weighing your 'good and bad' on a credit-based system.
Cheers!

[satjas]

Hey TM

>Since you have no intention of getting informed, I rest for
>now.
>I understand where you and the Koran are coming from. For your
>faith to be 'true' you have to claim that Christianity is
>false.
>My purpose was always to let you know that ALLAH and God in
>the Bible are different. The God in the Bible LOVES us and
>provided a way back to him. Allah, still leaves you in a
>stranded weighing your 'good and bad' on a credit-based
>system.
>Cheers!

TM, my friend please do not short-sell yourself.....you see the God you believe in and the One Coach believes in and the One I believe about are in reality the Same.....and at this stage i am overlooking all other things. The problem arises when we all try to claim how much only we know Her through our various religious books......and at that point, everyone professes truth and there is chaos due to our perceived 'truths'. The problem is a spiritual one but you have let it manifest itself in economic and social terms. When you see yourself succeeding socially and financially you attribute it to God, when things do not happen the way you want them to, you say 'it is all God's plan' even when you know you want it the other way.....c'mon man, who wants to live in poverty? And when you see other's failing socially and financially you say they have forgotten God and that God is meting justice due to their failure in acknowledging God......and in your case Jesus too. It is obviously frustrating to communicate with one who has glaucoma in one eye and 'blind' faith in the other and as such i do understand you resting your case with Coach.

In as much as i have utter respect for your salvation and heaven, i strive for more...you see, if heaven is a place, i have no problem with that. There are many who have already achieved salvation here on earth. However my quest is to merge with my creator, to become one with The Energy that made me be here in the first place.To merge with the One who created the Heaven!!!!!!!!!! That is a higher quest....people who have achieved salvation.....truly.....not the fake ones we see around, have met their souls.......mine is to take my soul to meet The Bigger Soul, its Creator, where All souls eventually merge with. There is no teaching or religious text that has explained to anyone how to achieve that par one. Even the bible, the torah and the kooran fall way short of this.

Nothing you have ever been taught can prepare you for this. I have read the Bible and the Kooran in depth and have not been able to find shared logic in achieving Oneness with God. Why do i say shared logic? Because there has to be no doubt in the way of achieving that Oneness with God. And the two books do not identify with this aspect at all. Even after you achieve salvation, the real-deal salvation.....not the one you hamper about you will then understand why I have told you this.....until then we shall only have endless debates.

Why do you need to know this? Albert Einstein once said knowledge is experience everything else is information..........you and I my friend only have the information ( from different ideologies and books) but I strive for that experience, the experience of God. Then and only then shall true Knowledge be known.

The credit based system also applies to christians albeit in a subtle way.......obviously you will be knocking me on this truth but you know for a fact that you claim Jesus is the only way to heaven...thus being the ultimate credit one can get..or be given.

To you TM and Coach it may appear that I am putting you down. This is not the case. It is the ideologies that you follow that do not allow for flexibility of thought. I have said this before.....let us not discard Books of old but strive to find newer truths. One does not need to be told that killing is denying another the chance to enjoy life but please let us not do it in Allah's name.

Despite the fact that many claim they are getting more adherents to their ideologies, quality is more important than quantity. I would rather have a few good men fighting for justice by my side than a million sick minded people. The sad truth is that many do not know how to disentangle themselves from the web of lies they have created. Let us take you for example. Suppose hypothetically, someone showed you with ample proof that what you had believed in was incorrect, and that now you had truly seen the light, you TM might find it very hard to accept you were wrong for a good part of your life. The same applies to many of us. Remember, all you read and know is only information. Experience is the key. And you cannot experience anything unless you feel like it. And you cannot feel anything unless you think about it ( talk of walking on coal) hence it is the thought that you have to learn to control. There is the Holy Trinity, thought -word- action. That holy spirit you keep ranting about exists in you, only your doubt veils that truth. Thus in your doubt you go looking for it outside yourself, outside the church which is in your heart, to the church where you collect millions of dollars from already poor people. Hence you go out....and go without.

As you may have noticed i have not used any biblical or kooranic verse to justify what i have said......in your case i may as well be the false prophet as your books so often claim. Ofcourse we will always be wrong for you. Coach claims his kooran challenges anyone to write a better verse......i mean how low and stupid can one get, it just reeks of self-egotism. If i know i am the truth why would i wanna challenge anything???? And to make matters worse, who will be the judge of that? Where on this earth will you ever find a muslim who will claim, yes, indeed here is another verse better than the one in our kooran.......This is a bait.....whoever has tried to do so has either been killed or doesn't exist in the open...maybe in hiding...ask salman rushdie.

I keep on my quest.....Oneness with God....join me if you want to.......anyone?

-the paradigm shifter........God's friend.

[TeamManager]

I will read your long article later.


If we compare between the God of the Christians, and Allah of the Muslims and of the Quran, we will see a lot of differences. There is a difference in the attributes of Allah, and the Attributes of God of the Christians. There is a difference in the commandment of Allah of the Muslims and the commandments of the God of the Christians. There is a difference in the plan of salvation prepared by the God of the Christians, and the plan of salvation in Islam. And I might say here that the word 'salvation' was never ever mentioned in the whole Quran. Then lastly I would say that the god head in Islam is different than the god head in Christianity. - Dr. Labib

[Coach]

> Coach claims his
>kooran challenges anyone to write a better verse......i mean
>how low and stupid can one get, it just reeks of self-egotism.
>If i know i am the truth why would i wanna challenge
>anything???? And to make matters worse, who will be the judge
>of that? Where on this earth will you ever find a muslim who
>will claim, yes, indeed here is another verse better than the
>one in our kooran.......This is a bait.....whoever has tried
>to do so has either been killed or doesn't exist in the
>open...maybe in hiding...ask salman rushdie.


satjas,
This is one of your better contributions where you have made your views clear without much condescending remarks about others' faith. But you didn't manage to do it without some insults brought about by the lack of knowledge in Islam. Allah tells us that the Qur'an is His words and for those who disbelieve, He invites them to look into the Qur'an and find any scientific fault in it or even try and write anything similar to it. This is not "self-egotism" as you have understood it but an open challenge to humanity, those who don't believe should try and produce something like it (not even better, but something like it in magnitude). Let's say (hypothetically) that when Microsoft developed Windows 95, they claimed that it was the best software ever and none like it or better shall ever exist and no one would even have the need to develop new software. What would happen? Of course software companies and entrepreneurs would try their best to prove them wrong and provide PC-users with better software that would put Windows 95 to shame. Now in reality, Windows 95 was great, but since it isn't the "best", they have improved it to Windows 98, 2000 and now XP. If Microsoft had thought that nothing could EVER compare or come close to Windows 95, they'd challenge those who don't believe to come up with something better and prove them wrong. I know this analogy sounds a bit daft, but I'm just trying to show you the point was with Allah inviting humanity to try and write JUST THREE LINES like the Qur'an. It isn't egotism but evidence that what you read are inded His words.

You talk about Salman Rushdie and it is apparent that you haven't read (or understood) his book "The Satanic Verses". This was not an attempt to write something like the Qur'an but a cheap shot insulting the beliefs of Muslims all over the world and mocking them. He might be endowed with deep archaic English but he is no more talented than the other writers out there. The fatwa by Khomeini made him famous and very few people had heard of him before that.


TM,
>Since you have no intention of getting informed, I rest for now.

Did you even read what I posted above? I read it through and know excatly what they were talking about. I even quoted a paragraph from the link you gave me, did you miss that? I then gave you a response that refutes their claims but it is apparent that you didn't even bother to "get informed" and correct the misonceptions you have about the Qur'an.

[Coach]

>In as much as i have utter respect for your salvation and
>heaven, i strive for more...you see, if heaven is a place, i
>have no problem with that. There are many who have already
>achieved salvation here on earth. However my quest is to merge
>with my creator, to become one with The Energy that made me be
>here in the first place.To merge with the One who created the
>Heaven!!!!!!!!!! That is a higher quest....people who have
>achieved salvation.....truly.....not the fake ones we see
>around, have met their souls.......mine is to take my soul to
>meet The Bigger Soul, its Creator, where All souls eventually
>merge with. There is no teaching or religious text that has
>explained to anyone how to achieve that par one. Even the
>bible, the torah and the kooran fall way short of this.


satjas,
Fall short? You fail to distinguish (as I've said many times before) between the Creator and His creation. Everything comes farom God but that doesn't mean that IT IS (or will be - at one with) GOD. Your quest seems (theoretically) noble; some extreme gnostics (esoterics, ascetics)in Islam often tread on this kind of path and claim that they are on a "higher" quest.

I understand your understanding of God to a certain degree and since you don't believe in any form of "organised religion", you tend to form your own intepretations of the Creator and dismiss others' intperetations based on Divine Scripture. I would never call your ways "the work of the devil" since the devil would never want you even to acknowledge God in the first place. Your quest is very noble and may God show you the way.

There's a gnostics' prayer (which was recited by the Prophet Muhammad PBUH) that I recite sometimes and would recommend it to you which says..."Allahuma ara'ni kullu shay'i kama hiya" - translation - Oh God, show me things as they REALLY are.

[satjas]

Hey Coach

>satjas,
>This is one of your better contributions where you have made
>your views clear without much condescending remarks about
>others' faith.

i couldn't trust you to say that.....and then i realized i was right cos then you said..

> But you didn't manage to do it without some
>insults brought about by the lack of knowledge in Islam.

hmmm.....whenever i don't agree with what you believe in you claim i have insulted you....this is a classic victim syndrome, something your ideology has refined for you.....and ofcourse you will always claim islamophobia.....hmm i know.


>Allah
>tells us that the Qur'an is His words and for those who
>disbelieve, He invites them to look into the Qur'an and find
>any scientific fault in it or even try and write anything
>similar to it.

No he doesn't, but then again i could be wrong.....is this Allah also God? And if She is why does She need humans to find fault in Her writings? In all my life in school i was taught to grasp the good stuff taught by my teacher and leave or ignore the mistakes.....so i find it strange that Allah should be asking us to pick a fault instead of advising us to take the best out of the kooran and ignoring any faults......common sense tells me that.

> This is not "self-egotism" as you have
>understood it but an open challenge to humanity, those who
>don't believe should try and produce something like it (not
>even better, but something like it in magnitude).

Actually i have read immaculate stuff but you will never accept that hence i will not bother you with unnecessary info.


> I know this analogy
>sounds a bit daft,

Yes true that.....a wise man accepts his mistakes....

>You talk about Salman Rushdie and it is apparent that you
>haven't read (or understood) his book "The Satanic Verses".
>This was not an attempt to write something like the Qur'an but
>a cheap shot insulting the beliefs of Muslims all over the
>world and mocking them. He might be endowed with deep archaic
>English but he is no more talented than the other writers out
>there. The fatwa by Khomeini made him famous and very few
>people had heard of him before that.

Obviously anyone you do not agree with will be deemed to have insulted you so i understand your madarasa school of thought.

>Did you even read what I posted above? I read it through and
>know excatly what they were talking about. I even quoted a
>paragraph from the link you gave me, did you miss that? I then
>gave you a response that refutes their claims but it is
>apparent that you didn't even bother to "get informed" and
>correct the misonceptions you have about the Qur'an.

Coach, most of the stuff makes no sense....i do not waste time reading stuff once i can see fallacy of thought....most of the stuff can be rendered illogical by the fourth written line....I also believe that the brain is a data processor and stores memory.....i have no need for unnecessary info.....yes the kooran has some beautiful verses, yes alot of it makes sense and yes alot of it leaves alot to be desired.....that is the bone of contention.

-the paradigm shifter.....God's friend.

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.

[Coach]

>hmmm.....whenever i don't agree with what you believe in you
>claim i have insulted you....this is a classic victim
>syndrome, something your ideology has refined for you.....and
>ofcourse you will always claim islamophobia.....hmm i know.


You are challenged and since you cannot face up to the challenge, you insult. What syndrome is that?



>>Allah
>>tells us that the Qur'an is His words and for those who
>>disbelieve, He invites them to look into the Qur'an and find
>>any scientific fault in it or even try and write anything
>>similar to it.
>
>No he doesn't, but then again i could be wrong.....is this
>Allah also God? And if She is why does She need humans to find
>fault in Her writings? In all my life in school i was taught
>to grasp the good stuff taught by my teacher and leave or
>ignore the mistakes.....so i find it strange that Allah should
>be asking us to pick a fault instead of advising us to take
>the best out of the kooran and ignoring any faults......common
>sense tells me that.


That's the beauty of the Qur'an which sets it apart from the books you learnt from so far...IT HAS NO FAULTS! If you don't believe it, then try to find faults in it; if you still doubt it, try writing something like it. Since tehre are no faults, there isn't something to "ignore" or "leave out" mate.



>> This is not "self-egotism" as you have
>>understood it but an open challenge to humanity, those who
>>don't believe should try and produce something like it (not
>>even better, but something like it in magnitude).
>
>Actually i have read immaculate stuff but you will never
>accept that hence i will not bother you with unnecessary
>info.


Oh thanks for sparing me!



>> I know this analogy
>>sounds a bit daft,
>
>Yes true that.....a wise man accepts his mistakes....


Yeah, desperate times call for desperate measures. If you have a toddler who is unable to chew solid food, a blender is a good thing to have handy :-)



>Obviously anyone you do not agree with will be deemed to have
>insulted you so i understand your madarasa school of thought.

You always disagree with me but here I'm trying to elucidate matters regarding my faith...I definately attended the "patience school of thought", what say ye?



>>Did you even read what I posted above? I read it through and
>>know excatly what they were talking about. I even quoted a
>>paragraph from the link you gave me, did you miss that? I
>then
>>gave you a response that refutes their claims but it is
>>apparent that you didn't even bother to "get informed" and
>>correct the misonceptions you have about the Qur'an.
>
>Coach, most of the stuff makes no sense....i do not waste time
>reading stuff once i can see fallacy of thought....most of the
>stuff can be rendered illogical by the fourth written
>line....I also believe that the brain is a data processor and
>stores memory.....i have no need for unnecessary info.....yes
>the kooran has some beautiful verses, yes alot of it makes
>sense and yes alot of it leaves alot to be desired.....that is
>the bone of contention.


That comment was actually aimed at TM and I never asked you read anything. If your scientific basal ganglia showed you that the contents had a "fallacy of thought" by the time you got to the fourth line, then who am I to question your observations?