[papillon]

I've been very religious tangu utotoni and I have believed in God all along but of late, I've come to doubt whether God is really there and if he is, why he allows things to happen the way they do. I've even come to think that he could be a sadist playing around with us mortals like pieces in a chess game. If one really can't have a good life here on earth, what good would the good life after death do; one which obviously no one has ever experienced.

Team manager and all those other guys who still believe please help me answer this questions/scenarios and please refrain from long answers about the will of God etc etc

1. You have a young daughter (2 to 12yrs) who is raped and from there on her life is full of nightmares and she never ever recovers from the experience. You ask yourself these questions,
a)Where was God when this was happening
b)The wages of sin (according to xtianity is death and suffering) What was the young girls sins.
c)Will she be held responsible if she never ever believes in mankind leave alone God whom she has never seen?.

2. Why is there no direct co-relation between doing good and prospering. (There are rich murderers who hold high places in governments all over the place, thieves embezzlers etc yet there are poor people (actually the majority who have never taken anything that is not theirs?)

3. Xtianity argues that God intended us to have a good life here on earth and later on in heaven. Why is it that some people have never known peace and happiness ever since they came to this world? (examples may be given on request)

4. To expound on point three, does God really love us all equally or some of us are pawns in his chess game that is the world?

5. What is really our purpose here on earth. (I mean why did God create us knowing very well that down the line man will sin and the wages of sin is eternal suffering?).

6. When all is said and done, I think religion is even more of a farce than God. Its intended to keep humans in chech just like state laws are meant to. But I'll give one point to religion for those who believe, and practice their religion, they do experience some inner peace and sometimes joy. I've come to think the reason why this is so is because of hope. Life without hope is as useless or tasteless as eating a carton.

Bring it on guys and although my knowledge of the bible is kidogo rusty I will engage you.

NB: I used to pray every day but of late I don't see the need.

[OR]

I understand your frustrations. Here is my honest opinion because the question of evil troubles me so.

Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Satan not God is responsible for those.

In the bible there is the story of Job who was a good man. But to test his faith God allowed satan to harass him. In the end he was strong.

So all those bad things are merely trials and temptations.

But this is a very simplistic and pedestrian response that even I can demolish. But it is a start...

[OR]

On a more philosophical note: Is God evil?

God has allowed us free will, so that we can make choices and out of this we sometimes choose to do evil. The person who rapes a child falls into this category...

Natural disasters like the Tsunami are in my opinion NOT evil.

But if God knows everything He certainly knew the Tsunami was coming, that people would die and suffer and did not prevent it. So therefore can one argue that God did not love those people?

.....

[papillon]

>I understand your frustrations. Here is my honest opinion
>because the question of evil troubles me so.
>
>Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Satan not God is
>responsible for those.

Yes I'm quite frustrated by things most of all by God/god

>In the bible there is the story of Job who was a good man. But
>to test his faith God allowed satan to harass him. In the end
>he was strong.

Supposing God instead tested Jobs wife what do you think would have been the result because in my opinion that happens to thousands of people all over the world who can't match Jobs faith?

>So all those bad things are merely trials and temptations.
>

What right does God have to try and tempt us mortal beings?. What if we fail the trials and temptations as we often do?. Are we then to be held accountable?

>But this is a very simplistic and pedestrian response that
>even I can demolish. But it is a start...

You are right it is somewhat simplistic. Coupled with all the things I've seen in my life, I tend to think God and xtianity is the biggest joke ever to be played on mankind!

[papillon]

>On a more philosophical note: Is God evil?
>

This is exactly what I'm trying to understand. Read the post by Atlias on whether God is an atheist. I found it enlightening(sp)

>God has allowed us free will, so that we can make choices and
>out of this we sometimes choose to do evil. The person who
>rapes a child falls into this category...

Ok those who believe and those who don't at least have alot of things in common as to what is evil and what is not. Therefore I agree on your free will case up to an extent..... Now in the case of the raped child or adult for that matter, what free will is granted to him/her by God to prevent the rape!!!

>Natural disasters like the Tsunami are in my opinion NOT
>evil.

I concur

>But if God knows everything He certainly knew the Tsunami was
>coming, that people would die and suffer and did not prevent
>it. So therefore can one argue that God did not love those
>people?
>

Kuna kitu! if he really loves them, why then should he allow them to go through the Tsunami. When I look at all the calamities (hunger, war, diseases etc) ravaging(sp) the African continent, I do have a BIIIIG question for our GOD. Did he create some of us to suffer????. Are some of us pawns in his chess game. Remember xtianity plus other religions argue that he has power over everything if that is the case why allow evil and bad things to happen to innocent people!!!!!

[Neoblack]

OR,

Now the Job story is one that astounds me. Ati to prove that Job loved God, god allowed Satan to torture him in ways even Hitler would have thought twice about. Why would god need to show satan that people do love and worship him???? please answer that question. he is god ... why does he have to prove anything to satan? that sounds like a competition between superman and his foes!!!

why can't he prove, instead, that he loves man regardless of race, religion, gender etc? and that he actually exists? Just a thought ... why doesn't he fight it out with satan one night and we can all look up to the sky and cheer him on; ama pay $29.95 for an HBO exclusive?

[Kohcoh]

>Just
>a thought ... why doesn't he fight it out with satan one night
>and we can all look up to the sky and cheer him on; ama pay
>$29.95 for an HBO exclusive?

Aki I hate laughing at such things lakini that's funny!!!

[ATLian]

>I understand your frustrations. Here is my honest opinion
>because the question of evil troubles me so.

The question of evil is actually quite simple - God created evil. According to Isaiah 45: 6 - 7, god is quoted verbatim as saying "I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things."



>Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Satan not God is
>responsible for those.

I assume that you'd reason that the reverse holds true - that when GOOD things happen to BAD people, it's god who is responsible. My question is, why is god doing good things for these bad people instead of helping out his good people?



>In the bible there is the story of Job who was a good man. But
>to test his faith God allowed satan to harass him. In the end
>he was strong.

The Job storo is very interesting. Kwanza, to be slightly petty, in Job 1:6 it says "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." I've always wondered WHO these other sons were (as in, was Jesus among them), and how Satan can be gods son. Anyway, from there god and satan make a bet and god lets Satan destroy everything Job owns, so I'm just wondering how you can then say that "Satan not God is responsible for those" bad things that happened?

To give an analogy, let's assume there's a mother with a beautiful 7 year-old girl, who is bright in school, ambitious, nice to everyone and who loves her mom to death. Then the mother calls all her pals for the kiddos birthday, and among the guests is a severally convicted child molester. The mum brags to the molester about how good her kiddo is, then the child molester argues back that the kid is only good because the mother has protected her, loved her, cared for her, etc, and if the mother wasn't there providing all those things, then the child wouldn't love the mother as much. Before proceeding any further, please note how totally absurd and asinine it is for the mother/god to have invited the child molester/satan over. But again, not much in the bible makes sense, and this is but one instance in a very long list.

Anyway, the mother then tells the child molester to do whatever he wants to her kiddo, as long as he doesn't kill her, just to prove that the kiddo will still love the mom. The child molester then rapes the kiddo in ways un-imaginable giving her some serious STDs, totally violates her, kills her teacher, kills her best friends, kills her pet dog, kills her gold fish, then lacerates her skin. Of course all this leaves the kiddo totally screwed up and wailing crazily to Mummy to help her. All this time the mother is watching, glad to high heavens that the kid is still wailing out "Mummy" as every despicable act is carried out. Finally, when the molester has his share, he goes away. The mother is ecstatic, smiling gleefully because she has proven that the kiddo loves her to death. To make up for the attrocities, she takes her kiddo to Disneyland via the hospital, then she buys the kid a new gold fish, a new pet, she moves her to a new school where the kiddo can get new friends and new teachers (coz her old ones are all dead), etc. When they get back, all the mothers pals have a bash for her and emulate her as a perfect mother, plus they view the kiddo as a hero for taking all that torture and still managing to cry out "Mummy." WTF?

Unless you're totally insane, you'd have to agree that that mother is absolutely f*cked up beyond all imaginable belief. She should definitely not have any kiddos and she should be locked up if not executed. The poor kiddo suffered just so she can win an idiotic bet with a psychopath. Question is, why is she viewed as insane, while god, who did the exact same thing to Job, is worshipped as faultless? God is all knowing, so he knew from Day One that Job wouldn't foresake him. Despite knowing this, he still let Satan torture Job and kill 10 of Jobs kids, tens of servants, thousands of cattle, etc. Yeah, he gave him 14 more kiddos, but so f*cking what? If you killed my 2 sisters, it doesn't matter how many more kiddos my mum gets, the new ones will never replace the 2 sisters.

What sort of god is this? WTF is wrong with Job? If god could do it to him this time, what guarantee does he won't do it again? Maybe the next time god is meeting his sons, Satan will come up with a few new torture moves that he wants to try out on Job, and god will bet again? Christians read the book of Job so as to see the story of someone who they consider to be the measure of faith, and to see how god will reward you for your faith (new kiddos, new cattle, new health, etc). I read it to remind me why the heck I would never worship the Christian god.

[ATLian]

>God has allowed us free will, so that we can make choices and
>out of this we sometimes choose to do evil. The person who
>rapes a child falls into this category...


I don't think "free will" and "an all-kowing god" can exist concurently. If an all-knowing all-powerful god KNOWS that X will hapen at time Y, then that X has to happen at that time Y. If it DOESN'T happen, then god isn't god since the Christian god, by definition, is all-knowing. If it DOES happen, then X had no choice, it happened only because it had to happen, therefore it had no free will of itself.

That's why I say that you can't have both if you're a believer, you have to chose either free will or predestination.

[Neoblack]

Yeah! That Job story has got to be the strangest and cruelest. Can you imagine how that conversation between god and satan went??

Satan (prancing around with his/her horns): God, I bet human beings do not love you. They are just scared of you.

God (seated solemnly stroking his white beard): What didst thou say, satan. They do love me. And to prove it, i wilst let thou do what thou wants to Job, my most beloved.

Satan (all excited): WTF did you say? Its on now!