[TeamManager]

@Papilon,
Your questions on 'Suffering', 'the wicked prospering' and 'purpose' are really nice questions.
But before I give my answers I would like to point out two things:-

1. Before you jump into a blind wargon headed down hill ask yourself what these 'Atheist', 'moon-god worshippers' and 'Philosophers (Eastern religion)' in Mashada have to offer you except emptiness as an explainantion for suffering. Just notice that none of them will try and offer you their 'religions' better explaination. They will only spend their time consoling their emptiness by attempting to bash Christianity.

2. From utotoni, did you Believe IN God or did you Believe ABOUT God? Big difference my friend.


SUFFERING
1. Remember we live in a FALLEN world. Good behaviour is not always rewarded and bad behaviour is not always punished. SIN has twisted justice and made our world unpredictable and ugly.
2. Job is a good example to our world. But the story of Job does not end in despair. Through Job's life we can see that faith in God is justified even when situations look hopeless.
3. Faith based on rewards or prosperity is hollow. An unshakable faith must be built on the confidence that God's ultimate purpose will come to pass and that God can make good out of terrible bad situations.
4. John 10:10 (NIV) The thief (i.e the Devil) comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I (i.e Jesus) have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
5. Jesus also terribly suffered thus he is also able to identify/comfort/syspathesize with those suffering. Heb 4:16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Generally the source of suffering is our sin, other's sin, avoidable circumstances and unavoidable circumstances (by God or by satan). The most important thing is our we respond. The correct responce is 'ongoing trust in God's faithfulness' and repentance (if the case arises).

Suffering is HARMFUL when:-
You become hardened and reject God.
Allow it to make you self-centred and selfish.
You withdraw from help.
You reject that God can bring good out of calamity.
You accuse God of being unjust and perhaps lead others to reject him.

Its NOT ALWAYS TRUE that suffering is God's punishment for sin or that Suffering is God's way to teach, discipline and refine. BUT its ALWAYS TRUE that suffering causes us to trust God for WHO HE IS, and NOT what he does.

VERY IMPORTANT
I know many lives that have been made better by God dispite the suffering they underwent, WHAT ABOUT the ATHEISTS- ANY example.


THE EVIL PEOPLE PROSPERING
I can assure you that your question is in good company. A number of Prophets and men of men in the Bible asked similar question. I would recommend that you read the book of Habakkuk (3 chapters only), Ps. 10*4-6 and Job 21:29-33.

The wicked may seem to get away with sin, but there is a higher Jugde and future Judgement (Rev 20:11-15). The final settlement of justice will not come in this life, but in the next. The wicked will surely be punished because God hates evil deeds. 'Guess they are just fattening for the punishment'

PURPOSE
To know God initimately and enjoy His presence while bring glory to Him. Other things are just details.

[TeamManager]

>OR,
>
>Now the Job story is one that astounds me. Ati to prove that
>Job loved God, god allowed Satan to torture him in ways even
>Hitler would have thought twice about. Why would god need to
>show satan that people do love and worship him???? please
>answer that question. he is god ... why does he have to prove
>anything to satan? that sounds like a competition between
>superman and his foes!!!
>
>why can't he prove, instead, that he loves man regardless of
>race, religion, gender etc? and that he actually exists? Just
>a thought ... why doesn't he fight it out with satan one night
>and we can all look up to the sky and cheer him on; ama pay
>$29.95 for an HBO exclusive?

@Neoblack,

Please re-read the story and you will notice that its SATAN who wanted to prove that Job was not faithful. God was already satisfied and knew Job's stand.

Satan said .....But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.... AND ....But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.....". WHO IS TRYING TO PROVE WHAT??

It would help to read.

[TeamManager]

IMPORTANT
We must not think they are because God knows them. No: God knows them because they are.


If we speak properly, there is no such thing as either foreknowledge or afterknowledge in God. All time, or rather all eternity, being present to him at once, he does not know one thing in one point of view from everlasting to everlasting. As all time, with everything that exists therein, is present with him at once, so he sees at once, whatever was is, or will be, to the end of time. But observe: We must not think they are because he knows them. No: he knows them because they are. Just as I (if one may be allowed to compare the things of men with the deep things of God) now know the sun shines: Yet the sun does not shine because I know it, but I know it because he shines. My knowledge supposes the sun to shine; but does not in anywise cause it. In like manner, God knows that man sins; for he knows all things: Yet we do not sin because he knows it, but he knows it because we sin; and his knowledge supposes our sin, but does not in anywise cause it. In a word, God, looking on all ages, from the creation to the consummation, as a moment, and seeing at once whatever is in the hearts of all the children of men, knows every one that does or does not believe, in every age or nation. Yet what he knows, whether faith or unbelief, is in nowise caused by his knowledge. Men are as free in believing or not believing as if he did not know it at all.


http://www.ccel.org/w/wesley/sermons.../serm-058.html

[OR]

Look at it this way. Some people have argued that God is very loving, he loves us all. But he is not powerful enough to stop all evil because the forces of the dark, led by satan also have some power.

And this is the Great Controversy between good and evil.

But one wonders what really is evil. Is something evil simply because we say so? based on mans morality? What if Gods view of evil is different from Man's perception?

For a man to kill another man is evil. But for God to kill a man is not evil as he is the creator (he did it so many times).

And what if God and Satan were presiding over a smaller part of a larger reality in which there were many other Gods presiding over other realities and a super God dictating over these many gods and their heavens and earths?

Things can really get complicated, you know.

[OR]

TM is right Neo.

God does not need to prove a thing. the bible - specifically the OT is replete with examples of people who first forsook God and therefore challenged him.... God always reacted by showing his power and glory through prohets such as Elijah, Elisha, Jeremiah e.t.c

[OR]

ATlian,

I think you have developed a very negative attitude towards christianity. It will be difficult for you to appreciate the christian point of view if you do not keep an open mind.

First, while death to you is a very serious matter, to God it is merely sleep. When a righteous person dies he goes to God. So when humans are so incensed and cry the why has god allowed so and so to die, he merely chuckles as he welcomes the person above.

Secondly one cannot second guess the motives of God. God knew this story would be part of his Word. he was using Job for a bigger reason. So that you and I can benefit from this story of faith and long suffering. So that generations to come would be encouraged..

[papillon]

>IMPORTANT
>We must not think they are because God knows them. No: God
>knows them because they are.
>
>
>If we speak properly, there is no such thing as either
>foreknowledge or afterknowledge in God. All time, or rather
>all eternity, being present to him at once, he does not know
>one thing in one point of view from everlasting to
>everlasting. As all time, with everything that exists therein,
>is present with him at once, so he sees at once, whatever was
>is, or will be, to the end of time. But observe: We must not
>think they are because he knows them. No: he knows them
>because they are. Just as I (if one may be allowed to compare
>the things of men with the deep things of God) now know the
>sun shines: Yet the sun does not shine because I know it, but
>I know it because he shines. My knowledge supposes the sun to
>shine; but does not in anywise cause it. In like manner, God
>knows that man sins; for he knows all things: Yet we do not
>sin because he knows it, but he knows it because we sin; and
>his knowledge supposes our sin, but does not in anywise cause
>it. In a word, God, looking on all ages, from the creation to
>the consummation, as a moment, and seeing at once whatever is
>in the hearts of all the children of men, knows every one that
>does or does not believe, in every age or nation. Yet what he
>knows, whether faith or unbelief, is in nowise caused by his
>knowledge. Men are as free in believing or not believing as if
>he did not know it at all.
>
>
>http://www.ccel.org/w/wesley/sermons.../serm-058.html

TM did you anderstand what you wrote, coz to me it does not make sence nor does it try to explain the various issues I and others raised regarding god

[papillon]

ATlian, I like your analogy of the Jobs story to the mama who lets her daughter suffer. God had nothing to prove to Saturn. The bible is full of so many contradicting stories. If we accept that God needed to prove something to saturn, then when Jesus was tempted by the devil to throw himself from the mountain top he would have gladly done so or even turn stones to bread. but no it had to be Job.

In another thread, there was another interesting analogy of why every father would have sacrificed his son just like Jesus knowing very well that it will only be a matter of time (3 days) before they are reunited in heaven.

[papillon]

>@Papilon,
>Your questions on 'Suffering', 'the wicked prospering' and
>'purpose' are really nice questions.
>But before I give my answers I would like to point out two
>things:-
>
>1. Before you jump into a blind wargon headed down hill ask
>yourself what these 'Atheist', 'moon-god worshippers' and
>'Philosophers (Eastern religion)' in Mashada have to offer you
>except emptiness as an explainantion for suffering. Just
>notice that none of them will try and offer you their
>'religions' better explaination. They will only spend their
>time consoling their emptiness by attempting to bash
>Christianity.

As I stand TM am in the process of discovering whether xtianity is worthwhile and while at it to know whether god is real or a farce. TM what is your take on the other religions ie Budhism, Islamic and even 'Atheists'. Will they see God once they depart from this world???

>2. From utotoni, did you Believe IN God or did you Believe
>ABOUT God? Big difference my friend.

To me it one and the same!

>SUFFERING
>1. Remember we live in a FALLEN world. Good behaviour is not
>always rewarded and bad behaviour is not always punished. SIN
>has twisted justice and made our world unpredictable and
>ugly.

God is to blame here he created everything

>2. Job is a good example to our world. But the story of Job
>does not end in despair. Through Job's life we can see that
>faith in God is justified even when situations look hopeless.
>3. Faith based on rewards or prosperity is hollow. An
>unshakable faith must be built on the confidence that God's
>ultimate purpose will come to pass and that God can make good
>out of terrible bad situations.

Jobs case is just one out of millions! At least Job was rewarded. I posed a question earlier on. Not all of us have as much faith as Job and therefore some of us will fall along the way. Are those who fall to be condemned by our god. Remember Jobs wife had had it up to here (pointing at my throught) and told Job that they should curse God. Had it been her, do you think she would have withstood all the suffering undergone by Job???

>Generally the source of suffering is our sin, other's sin,
>avoidable circumstances and unavoidable circumstances (by God
>or by satan). The most important thing is our we respond. The
>correct responce is 'ongoing trust in God's faithfulness' and
>repentance (if the case arises).

I have a bone to pick when I have to suffer for other peoples sins. Say like my forefathers sinned and a curse was liad on the three generations of their sons and daughters to come. What sence is there in this kind of reasoning????

>Its NOT ALWAYS TRUE that suffering is God's punishment for sin
>or that Suffering is God's way to teach, discipline and
>refine. BUT its ALWAYS TRUE that suffering causes us to trust
>God for WHO HE IS, and NOT what he does.

You are wrong here buddy!. What suffering does to some people is to alienate(sp) them from God

TM, what do you think of all the other living things in this world. Will they have another kind of life in heaven.
Also try to answer this, why did God create the world in the first place? why not let us live with him in his abode in the first place. Are we down here on earth under some kind of test and only when we pass will we be allowed to share in God house in heaven. In short TM and others, heaven and too may be a big farce created to give us hope and to instil fear in us mortals

[mpararo]

my question is why did God even send satan here on earth in the first place. knowing his(satan)power and the inherent weaknessess in humans, he could have just gotten rid of this evil being and let us enjoy the earth as he had intended.with his all- knowing ability, he surelly would have seen this coming.speaking of Him being all-knowing, does it really matter if am righteous or not, if HE knew even before i was born, where i will end up in.