[Babe]

Onyango72, I tend to agree with muhubiri on this matter of necessity of baptism for salvation.

For one to truly have faith in Christ, you must believe without a doubt everything he has taught and commanded. He definitely has taught and commanded us to all be baptized in order to be saved. “Baptism now saves you”, “ unless you are born of Spirit and water, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven”. It is very clear that without being baptized, one cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. So how can you dispute this wonderful message of salvation?

When Jesus told the thief on the cross that, on the very day the two of them died, they would be together in paradise (Luke 23:43), he definitely did not refer to heaven since he did not go to heaven on the day he died. Peter tells us that he "went and preached to the spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3:19), and, after his resurrection, Christ himself declared: "I have not yet ascended to the Father" (John 20:17). Thus at that time paradise was located in some third state besides heaven and besides hell.

The Bible speaks clearly of this paradise, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.

[Babe]

Onyango72,
I wish to make a correction on a quote I made on Romans 7, it is actually Romans 8:8 where St. Paul is teaching of impossibility of pleasing God in flesh, unless one is born of Spirit(Baptism) then one cannot please God.

[Muhubiri]

>Onyango72, I tend to agree with muhubiri
>on this matter of necessity of baptism
>for salvation.
>
>For one to truly have faith in Christ,
>you must believe without a doubt
>everything he has taught and commanded.
>He definitely has taught and commanded
>us to all be baptized in order to be
>saved. ?Baptism now saves you?, ? unless
>you are born of Spirit and water, you
>cannot enter the kingdom of heaven?. It
>is very clear that without being
>baptized, one cannot enter the kingdom
>of heaven. So how can you dispute this
>wonderful message of salvation?
>
The Scripture says 'if you are not *born again* you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.'

>When Jesus told the thief on the cross
>that, on the very day the two of them
>died, they would be together in paradise
>(Luke 23:43), he definitely did not
>refer to heaven since he did not go to
>heaven on the day he died. Peter tells
>us that he "went and preached to the
>spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3:19), and,
>after his resurrection, Christ himself
>declared: "I have not yet ascended to
>the Father" (John 20:17). Thus at that
>time paradise was located in some third
>state besides heaven and besides hell.
>

This geography is confusing. If Christ told the thief he will that very same day see him in paradice he did not lie. Jesus talk of a different place other than "located in some third
state besides heaven and besides hell." The picture Jesus gives of Lazurus the beggar in paradise Luke 16:26 'and there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
This paradise is a place of comfort and not a prison, but hades (hell) is a place of torment.

Again in Revelation 2:7 Jesus desribes the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

>The Bible speaks clearly of this
>paradise, commonly called the limbo of
>the Fathers, where the just who had died
>before the redemption were waiting for
>heaven to be opened to them.

Give some references please. There should be many if the Bible speaks clearly about this limbo!

>After his death and before his resurrection,
>Christ visited those experiencing the
>limbo of the Fathers and preached to
>them the good news that heaven would now
>be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These
>people thus were not in heaven, but
>neither were they experiencing the
>torments of hell.

Your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 is spiced with a whole lot it does not say.

[Babe]

Muhubiri,I thought that the focus here is the above topic. The only reason why I brought about the other third place that is not heaven or hell, was to try and help Onyango72 understand that Jesus did not go to the Father that very day he died. The scriptures support this fact very well even Christ himself declared it in John 20:17-18 "Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." Mary Mag'dalene went and said to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord"; and she told them that he had said these things to her." Also in 1 Peter 3: 18-22 reads “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

Finally, Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

[Muhubiri]

@Babe;

What concerns me is the twisting of the scriptures to introduce false doctrines of Rome. There is no mention of this place between heaven and hell in Matt 12:32. Jesus talks of 'this age and the age to come' Your suggestion 'that one can be freed of the consequences of sin after death' is a false hope. What Jesus is talking here is the dire consequences of blasphemy against the Spirit. These are people who have known the truth through the Spirit of God and have chosen to do the contrary.
Jesus meant what he told the thief on the cross. Time ceases to exist for the dead. That is why the time for salvation is now. That is why the very same day the thief would be with Jesus in paradise.
For us who are bound by time, it was three days that Jesus was in the grave. This fact is not the question in dispute.
In 1 Cor. 3:15 the context of the work bieng mentiond here is that of preaching the gospel. Verse 6 gives the preface. 'I (Paul) planted, Appolos watered and God gave the increase.' Paul here is saying faulty workmanship won't stand the test of fire. Instead of a reward, you are going to get nothing, 'suffer loss' while you will make it with nothing to show .. like being burned out of your house.

The catholic doctrine of purgatory is not addressed in this verse or in Matthew.

What you have said is that a verse here suggest this or that. Why can't you read what is in the scriptures for what they are saying. Must you introduce ideas not expressed in the scriptures as truth ?!
Take God at His word Babe!

[Babe]

Muhubiri,
All Christians agree that we won’t be sinning in heaven. Sin and final glorification are utterly incompatible. Therefore, between the sinfulness of this life and the glories of heaven, we must be made pure. Between death and glory there is purification.

Thus, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1030–1).

The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45). Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine.

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God.

[Muhubiri]

@Babe

Actually a good part of Christs ministry was refuting alot of the views held by the Jews and the teachers of his time ( the Scribes and the Pharasees ). I'm surprised that this arguments are still going on today. One of this purification question is in Matthew 15. The disciples did not wash their hands when they ate bread. the Pharasees charged that they transgressed the tradition of the elders. Jesus in a tipical manner answered the with a question. v3 "Why do you transgress the commandments of God because of your tradition?"

This was Jesus view of those that teach the traditions of men then and now.

v7 "Hypocrates! Well did Isiah prophesy about you, saying:

"These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips'
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men"

If Christ did not look kindly to these traditions then, would think He has changed His mind?.

When Christs sets you free, You are free in deed.
We will be changed in a twinkling of an eye!

Give God the Glory!

[Babe]

Muhubiri,
It is important to keep in mind what the Catholic Church means by traditions. The term does not refer to legends or mythological accounts, nor does it encompass transitory customs or practices which may change, as circumstances warrant, such as styles of priestly dress, or even liturgical rubrics. Sacred or apostolic tradition consists of the teachings that the apostles passed on orally through their preaching. These teachings largely (perhaps entirely) overlap with those contained in Scripture, but the mode of their transmission is different.

They have been handed down and entrusted to the Church. It is necessary that Christians believe in and follow this tradition as well as the Bible (Luke 10:16). The truth of the faith has been given primarily to the leaders of the Church (Eph. 3:5), who, with Christ, form the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20). The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this teaching from corruption (John 14:25-26, 16:13).

Paul illustrated what tradition is: "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. . . . Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed" (1 Cor. 15:3,11). The apostle praised those who followed Tradition: "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2).

[Babe]

Muhubiri,
Just for your information, my purpose here is to tell the truth and shade some light to those that have been mislead to believe anything but the truth. My desire and devotion is to pass on the truth in its entirety, since the truth will set us all free. So if your intentions are anything else than mine then you need to re-evaluate them. Mine is not to try to proof to anyone anything other than pass the teachings of Christ along to all that will listen, under the guidance of the Catholic Church. Everything I profess, has to be as taught by the Church, not my own supposition or humanly wisdom. My greatest fear is that most people have been lead away from the truth, and it is a high time that we all came together and helped them see all the truth as intended by Christ.