[muombaji]

yes ndume every person born into this world is born with original sin which is cleansed through baptism. that is why a kid needs to be baptised when a baby.

the journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step
http://www.debsfunpages.com/moresmiles/skipy.gif

[ndume1]

wewe Muombaji, haya mafundisho yanatoka wapi? niambie alafu i shall give you some dose about this issue.

[Onyango72]

Folks please take not of the title of this thread. A few of you replied before I changed the title to reflect the message I was posting.
Now, there are some people who believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation. However, if you examine scripture carefully you will see that baptism is NOT necessary for you salvation. It is done as an act of obedience to what has already taken place, in the life of a person who has already accepted Christ as their savior.

The Bible clearly state this fact in Romans 10:9-10 and Acts 16:31. If Baptism is what saves a person or child as some of you have said, then why did Jesus Christ have to die on the cross? What was the purpose of Christ death on the cross? Christ came to die as a substitute for all of mankind in order to pay the sin debt that of the world. Every human being on the face of this earth deserves to die because we are sinners (The wages of sin is death). However God in his mercy and love sent his only son Jesus Christ, so that whosoever believes in him shall have eternal life (John 3:16). It cannot be simpler than that.

To suggest that Baptism is what saves a person from their sin amounts to a misunderstand of what the Gospel is. The gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ died, was buried and rose on the third day. Why in order that you and I may be offered eternal life. The bible says "To as many as received him (Christ) he gave the right to become sons of God.

Baptism is a symbolic outward sign of an inward work of God in the life of a person who has by faith believed (trusted) in Jesus Christ. (For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast (Ephesian 2:8-9).

[teejay]

>The Bible clearly state this fact in
>Romans 10:9-10 and Acts 16:31. If
>Baptism is what saves a person or child
>as some of you have said, then why did
>Jesus Christ have to die on the cross?
>What was the purpose of Christ death on
>the cross? Christ came to die as a
>substitute for all of mankind in order
>to pay the sin debt that of the world.
>Every human being on the face of this
>earth deserves to die because we are
>sinners (The wages of sin is death).
>However God in his mercy and love sent
>his only son Jesus Christ, so that
>whosoever believes in him shall have
>eternal life (John 3:16). It cannot be
>simpler than that.


>To suggest that Baptism is what saves a
>person from their sin amounts to a
>misunderstand of what the Gospel is. The
>gospel is the good news that Jesus
>Christ died, was buried and rose on the
>third day. Why in order that you and I
>may be offered eternal life. The bible
>says "To as many as received him
>(Christ) he gave the right to become
>sons of God.


Onyango when you talk about Gospel,you have to take that Baptism is part of it and Jesus puts very clear to Nichodemus that "amini amini mtu asipozaliwa mara ya pili hawezi kuona ufalme wa mbinguni" Therefore this is part of the word(good news)that you have over and over said saves the sinful man.

>Baptism is a symbolic outward sign of an
>inward work of God in the life of a
>person who has by faith believed
>(trusted) in Jesus Christ. (For it is by
>grace that you have been saved, through
>faith, and this not of yourselves, it is
>the gift of God, not by works so that no
>one can boast (Ephesian 2:8-9).

And plis do not pick from verses and just type them on the net you have to derive your reading as if you were working on certain mathematical formula.Otherwise you risk getting confused and in the process even confuse others.
Take for instance one verse in the bible In Genesis..."Cain slew his brother"... and another in Either Galatians Or Corinths(I stand to be corrected) which says....."go and do the same to your brother"(Kill your brother)
My dear brother you will be totally lost.

[Muhubiri]

The idea of asking a question and answering it yourself is a clever way of teaching a doctrine. One must be careful what question they ask because some question cast doubt into ones faith. There are those things that are clearly explained in the word of God, to which one should dedicate careful study. Questions that touch on salvation are especially very important.

Please note that Jesus Himself was baptised and explained plainly the reason for it. In Matthew 3:15 after His babtism Jesus says to John the baptist, "Permit it to be so, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousnes".
John the baptist baptised with water the baptism of repentance. We know that Jesus had nothing to repent yet He subjected Himself to the babtism of John. In protest, John confessed it was he who was suppose to be baptised by Jesus. John talks of the outward baptism with water and the inward baptism of Spirit and fire. John could do the former but not the latter.

It is important that those who wish to fulfill all righteousness be baptised. Without the baptism that Jesus and Jesus only does, salvation is not possible.

To make the baptism of water effective, one must also accept the baptism of the Spirit. Yet we are told there is only one baptism (Ephesians 4:5). So to say baptism is not necessary for salvation is an erroneous doctrin.

When one is understands that salvation is the work of God, ie. only God can save, then one will not be confused about whether or not to get baptised. There must be an inward witness of the outward act on baptism. If one is truly baptised from above there is a departure from the works of repentance. One can not claim to have been saved without showing the fruit of that salvation.

Yes! Baptism is necessary for Salvation. With this I am not talking of what man does on the outside, but that most important work that the Spirit of God does on the inside, without which salvation is impossible.

[Babe]

Onyango72,
Please refrain from misleading people. For you to say it is not necessary to be baptised for salvation is absolutely out right misleading. Where do you get such misguided information. Half truth, distorted truth, or lies are all the same they are intended to mislead and confuse the truth and we all know who is the master of al lies.

Jesus Christ taught about the necessasity of baptism, and there is not once that he said we did not need to be baptised. In fact he set the way for us by being baptised himself, who was without sin and is God, before beginning his ministry. And at the end, he instructed us to go therefore make disciples of all nation baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit and will be with us always. So how could you possibly dispute this wonderful message?

In baptism we are born of the Spirit and are able to please God in Spirit. You tell me any other way we are born of Spirit other than in baptism. Read Romans 7 and see what St. Paul talks about being impossible to please God in flesh unless born of Spirit. Baptism is the beginning, then you must live according to your calling and all that Christ has commanded, observing everything he has taught us, therefore working towards your salvation with fear and trembling.

[Onyango72]

Muhubiri & Babe,

I must say that both of you have totally misunderstood everything that I am saying. Inorder to support what I am saying please answer this question. What about the thief on the cross who asked Jesus to remember him in paradise? Babe I know you what you are going to say. There is no such thing as purgatory, so please don't tell me that this thief didn't go to heaven. In fact on the cross, this thief recognized that he deserved to die for the things he had done. Secondly, he also recognized that Jesus was unjustly accused convicted and sentenced to death on a cross. So he by faith committed his whole life to Christ.

What is Salvation? Many people have the idea that they can save themselves. Salvation is the deliverance from the power or penalty of sin; i.e redemption. There is no human being on the face of this earth that can save themselves from their sins, because God's standard is perfect, for the bible says "Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect". Now we all know that we cannot be perfect...why because all of us are sinners. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Salvation has nothing to do with what man can do. (Being baptised doesn't deliever anyone from the power and the penalty of sin). In fact Baptism will never atone for any human being's sin. The bible says "He (Jesus) who knew no sin, was made to be sin for us in order that we might become the righteousness of God. Salvation is the work of God through the Holy Spirit. The bible says in Acts 4:12 that "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" The name here oblivously refers to the Lord Jesus Christ. In Romans 1:16 Paul states the following "I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God, for the salvation of everyone who believes first for the Jew, then for the Gentile". As you can see Salvation doesn't come through Baptism. Now please don't misunderstand what I am saying. Every believer needs to be baptized after making a profession of faith in the finished work of Christ at the cross. Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by work so that no one can boast".

Anyone's Salvation is not based upon the idea that they were put in a basin of water or sprinkled with water and came up. By saying that baptism is necessary for Salvation, it amounts to adding to the finished work of Christ. If Baptism saves a person then why did Jesus have to die.

[Muhubiri]

Dearest Onyago72;

Please understand what I am saying. There is only one baptism.(Eph. 4:5). If you get what this baptism is, you will realize it cannot be separated from salvation. Col 2:11 talk of circumcision without hands..meaning done by God himself. In verse 12 it talks of 'being buried with him in baptism'. Where would the thief on the cross escape from being buried with Him and also being raised with Him. You yourself talked of the symbolism of water baptism. What we do in symbolism represent something spiritually significant and essential. All things symbolic in the scripture teach a spiritual reality. Man does the symbolic part in obedience to Gods working of the spiritual reality. That which is symbolic is transient, a teaching aid if you may for what God is doing for eternity.

Please do not teach that which is not clearly taught in the scripture for arguments sake. All Christians should get baptized as fulfiling all righteousness. All Christians should also understand the significance and the meaning of the baptism in which they are baptized.

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you give account for those who shunned a wonderful passage in baptism because some mashadite said it was not necessary.

[Onyango72]

Muhubiri

Did you read this sentence in my last posted thread. "Now please don't misunderstand what I am saying. Every believer needs to be baptized after making a profession of faith in the finished work of Christ at the cross".

Baptism is necessary as an act of obedience to what has already happened in the life of a person who has entrusted their life to Jesus Christ. Infact you mention it perfectly and I quote "What we do in symbolism represents something spiritually significant and essential. All things symbolic in the scripture teach a spiritual reality. Man does the symbolic part in obedience to Gods working of the spiritual reality". By being baptised we are in effect saying that we have trusted Christ for salvation and it is he who came to save us from our sins. The act of being baptised does not save anyone. It is symbolic of an a spiritual reality i.e that Christ is the atoning scarifice for our sins. It is his atoning sacrifice that saves us from our sins and not the actual act of being Baptized. If the act of being baptised could save a person or provide salvation, Why did Christ have to die on the cross?

As I have said, the act of being Baptised will never save a person. It is trusting in Jesus Christ that saves an individual from their sins (Acts 16:31) The thief on the cross, did not particpate in the actual act of being baptized yet we know that Christ told him that he would be in paradise with God. This shows that trusting in Christ is the key to being saved. Over and over again in the book of Acts, scripture says "they believed (trusted) and were baptised" It is interesting that the word "Believe" is mentioned first and then they were baptised. Why do you think this is so? The answer is found in Romans 10:9-10.

[Muhubiri]

Onyango72;

Let us not make a play of words. If we are talking about 'an act of baptism', that would not be baptism would it? I would not have an actor who plays a doctor on TV actually operate on me, it is a matter of life and death. More seriously, no one would knowingly allow themselves to be baptised simply as an act. In baptism, there is power to put to death the man of sin, and be ressurection into everlasting life. Jesus Christ is able to do this through His Spirit. This is Him who we trust and believe to be the author and finisher of our faith. If a person is sent from God with authority to carry out Gods work in a believer, he is marely a messager. The true messager brings glory to the one who sent Him. (Matt 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but he who is comming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire." He who comes to baptize with Spirit and with fire is very necessary. Without Him there is no salvation. The thief on the cross belived in Jesus and was baptized with Spirit and fire.

If you stick to the defination of baptism found in the bible, you will agree that this is necessary for salvation. If you are talking about another baptism or an act therof, then it surely cannot save. It is Christ who truly baptises. It is Christ who truly saves.

GIVE GOD THE GLORY!