[Songa Songa]

Think how confusing it is for an alter boy who is being molested and additionally being lied to that all they need to do is be babtized to get to heaven. First you loose your innocence in this life and worse still you loose your entry to the kingdom of God.

Songa Songa hii ni aibu sana!

[bryo99]

To me, the Catholic Church is one of the most corrupt and most misleading church in the world. As MauMau stated, it is one of the vilest religions. There is a massive coverup of what the Catholic Church really stands for. But in simple terms, it is a "church" that aims to be the most dorminant in the world by brainwashing people. If you look at the history of the Catholic Church, the Emperor of Rome, Constatine, at the time was concerned about the stability of his empire and was willing to do anything to keep it intact. He became a "Catholic" and was involved in many of changes that followed. The adoption of pagan rites, idols and festivals such as Christmas Day, the Virgin Mary,the Great Mother, the Holy Trinity are among some of the changes to accomodate the heathen. This saw many an increase in the number of "Catholics" at the time.
Based on this history, it is rather obvious that the Catholic "church" will do anything. ncluding cover-ups, to maintain the status quo.It is full of politics and self-seeking opportunists. So much for a religion.
Just for your information, it is the richest institution in the world. Go figure.
If anybody is looking for salvation and eternal life, surely the Catholic way will not be the one.

[Onyango72]

Babe,

It seems that you agree that baptism is a symbol of what has already occured in the life of a person who has trusted Christ as savior and Lord. Let me quote you.

We are baptized with water, symbolizing our dying with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and our rising with Christ to the newness of life (Rom. 6:4?5); we receive the gift of sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27); and we are adopted as God?s sons (Rom. 8:15?17). After our Lord's teaching that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1-21)" Let me call to your attention the word (symbolizing) in the Rom 6:3. Baptism symbolizes that we died with Christ and rose just like he did in order to walk in newness of life.

I ask you again how does a person get saved/born again. Think very carefully about this. I have stated that according to scripture, for one to become a follower of Christ, all they need to do is to believe in him. Acts 16:31 says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved. Rom 10:9-10 says, That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved".

Suppose I was in a desert where there was no water to be found and I read Rom 10:9-10. If I believed it and confessed with my mouth that Christ is Lord, would I be saved, or would I have to look for an oasis in order get baptised to be saved? If you says that I need to look of an oasis in order to be baptised, thus saved then you have rejected Christ death on the cross.

Why did Jesus come? Did he come to baptise people. I think not. He came so that people would not perish in their sin. He came as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world. I am sure you are familiar with John 3:16, (whosoever believes in him (Jesus) shall not perish but have everlasting life..). The key word here is (believe=trust)

You are abosolutely correct in saying that to be born-again needs to come from above. But what exactly does that mean. It means that the spirit of God has to reveal himself to a person before they can come to know Christ. It doesn't mean that you have to be baptised in order to know Christ. Over and over again Christ talks about "believing in him" in the book of John. Why, because it is through him that people are saved from their sins. If Baptism saves people from their sin, can you explain to me why Christ had to come to this sin forsaken world and die a gruesome death on a cross?

If you stood before God and he asked you why should I let you into my heaven? What would you say? I hope you would not tell him that you've been baptised. That is definately not the right answer. I wonder what you answer would be.

NOTE: Not amount of personal efforts, good works, religious deeds, religious rituals can earn a person a place in heaven. Heaven is a free gift. (Eph 2:8-9)

[shushu]

a lot of things said here are sad but very true...iam catholic and i beleive that if something is wrong...its wrong and its no use trying to cover it up.however before pointing fingers and saying what catholics do or dont do its....have your facts together.
correct me if im wrong but in every denomination there are fanatics...those are the people who go around praying to Mary...for what i know and have been taught we are just supposed to respect her as the mother of Jesus. Personally i dont think there is anything wrong with that.
as for the priests and all the people that are supposed to be guiding people and bringing them to Christ...some have gone wrong BUT there are those that have continued to do a good job.
as far as im concerned what matters at the end of the day is ONES PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST. its doesnt matter if you are catholic or not...its all about what you beleive in.

[houdy_ny1]

it is rather quite obvious that arguments pertaining to religion and doctrines cannot come to a compromise.it is impossible to detour a person from his faith be it a muslim,catholic,protestant even atheists.the issue of child sexual perversion cannot be restricted to catholics and their religion.this are actions of individuals and not a 'conspiracy' as people might put it.

the issue of being saved:believe what you want to believe ...if you are comfortable with your faith,leave people the hell alone and stop acting like you are a expert on the bible while you just qoute a line you heard last week.talking about ati catholics don't know what being saved means....when were you a catholic and mastered the whole doctrine.?this is just like the way some people believe that terrorism is an unwritten convention in islam.Bsh@t

......there are about 2000 or more religious doctrines in the entire world......who said that what you believe is what is right?does it mean that if you are a catholic then everyone else will perish in eternal doom,....does it mean that if you are a jehovah witness that only the few chosen thousands will go to heaven(no pun intended if my observations are wrong)we are just a mixed up,disintegrated lot.i think i'll practice all the doctrines i can find just to be on the safe side.imagine what would happen if Jesus came back and somehow announced that islam was the right way all along.....wouldn't christians feel stupid??????? 2000 yrs gone to waste,....i don't want to even think about it.

[Babe]

Onyango72,
Scripture teaches that one's final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31-46). One who dies in the state of grace will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.

The truth is that in one sense we are all redeemed by Christ's death on the cross i.e. Christians, Jews, Muslims, even animists in the darkest forests (1 Tim. 2:6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2)but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on our response.

Certainly, Christ did die on the cross once for all and has entered into the holy place in heaven to appear before God on our behalf. Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born "saved," with no need to be born again. Since we were not, since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God by being baptized.

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8), but I am also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13)." By the way St. James also tells us that faith without works is dead.

[Onyango72]

Babe,

Your rightly state and I quote “The truth is that in one sense we are all redeemed by Christ's death on the cross i.e. Christians, Jews, Muslims, even animists in the darkest forests (1 Tim. 2:6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2) but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on our response.” I especially like the latter part of this sentence because, that is what Rom 10:9-10 is all about. Remember that eternal life is a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9). Like any genuine gift that is given it must be received. The bible says in John 1:12, “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God”. The reason Christ died on the cross was in order to offer the gift of eternal life to all people. As you have mentioned there is a response required on our part. We must receive the gift in order to have eternal life. There are only two responses that can be taken upon hearing about the gift of eternal life that Christ’s death offers. Some people chose to reject it, while some accept it. For those that believe (trust) and respond by accepting, they become Children of God as John 1:12 says.

Let me quote you again. “there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God by being baptized”. Is this really biblical? I think not! If you think so show me the scripture reference. There is nowhere in Scripture where it says that we are reconciled to God through baptism. In fact you mention Rom 5:9-10 which says, “For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life”. Notice that this verse says that we are reconciled to God through the death of his Son. In other words we are reconciled to God through Jesus Christ and not baptism! For more verses on reconciliation to God through Christ look up the following (2 Cor 5:18; Col 1:22).

In the last paragraph of your post you mention the fact that you are already saved, being saved, and the hope that you will be saved. I most definitely agree with you. However, let me clarify what I believe you are trying to say. The reason you have the hope of being saved, is because of Christ death on the cross. His death gives you the opportunity to accept/receive the gift of eternal life. The bible refers to this as justification (Rom 5:1-2; Rom 5:8-9) . What is justification? Justification is being declared righteous. When you accept Christ as Lord and Savior, God doesn’t see your sin. He declares you righteous based on the fact that you have received his atoning sacrifice for your sins. Once a person makes this decision to trust Christ, then the process of being saved starts. This is referred to in the bible as Sanctification. That’s the reason Paul was able to say, “I am being saved”. But what does sanctification mean? It is the process by which God make you more like Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is the process of being made Holy. The bible says be holy as your father in heaven is holy.

[Babe]

We are accepted in Christ, the source of all spiritual blessings (Eph. 1:3). Salvation is in no other (Acts 4:12), for no one comes to the Father but by him (John 14:6), and our access to the Father is through him (Eph. 2:18).

Belief does not establish that relationship in Christ without baptism, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:26f; See Rom. 6:3f).

In being baptized into Christ, we are baptized into the one body, which is the church (1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 4:4; Col. l:18). So you cannot have fellowship with Christ, the source of all spiritual blessings, without also being in his spiritual body, which is the church.

One of the purposes for baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16). Jesus promised that those who believe and are baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). So we are forgiven, or saved, by the same process that establishes our relationship in Christ in his church.

Out of Christ, one is still condemned, but for those who have been baptized into Christ for the remission of sins, there is no condemnation (Rom. 8:1). In taking away our sins, our alienation is no more. We are reconciled to God in Christ (2 Cor. 5:18f). That reconciliation is in one body (Eph. 2:6). And that body is the church. All the reconciled are in the church. The church does not save, but it is the saved, for the same procedure that saves us puts us into his saved group.

Being reconciled to God, we are in fellowship with him. That fellowship with God is shared with all whom he has forgiven.

We are baptized into Christ, and "if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17). Each new creation/creature received this newness of life upon arising from baptism (Rom. 6:3f). A person in newness of life is the one born of the water and the Spirit (John 3:35). In this rebirth of the water and the Spirit one becomes a child of God entering the Kingdom of God (See Gal. 3:26f again).

Without baptism to change one state or relationship, can you honestly declare that one is in Christ, in the body, in the church, in remission of sins, saved, free from condemnation, reconciled, a new creature, born again, a child of God, and in the kingdom of God? The above quotes give God's answer!

[Kasaindia]

On reading through this thread especially the dialogue between Onyango72 and Babe, I noticed that both of you indicated either growing up in a Catholic environment or being Catholic but never made a mention of the other Sacraments.

After Baptism among Catholics there is the Sacrament of confirmation which is given around the age of 14 years.
The Sacrament of Confirmation was instituted by Christ in promising to send the Holy Spirit. This suggests a twofold aspect of Christian . In Acts 8 and 19, we have scriptural witness to a rite after Baptism, the laying on of hands, which gives the Holy Spirit.
Confirmation is the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.
Confirmation is aimed at leading the Christian Catholic toward a more intimate union with Christ. The sacrament usually consists of vows which affirm your baptism, your acceptance of God and renouncing of the devil. Then there is annointing with Oil to symbolize the holy spirit.

This is just to show that Catholics do fulfil what John chapter 3 talks about being born again of water and the Spirit and repenting. They may not refer to it as "being saved" like many pentecostals do but it is the same thing.

Having had a chance to attend both the Pentecostal and Catholic church, all I see the Pentecostals do when they get saved is say some vows and then have someone pray with them, exactly what Catholics do at confirmation.

However, lets not dwell on the vows but on the Christlike behavior. Do both religions practice what they preach? The Catholic church has had cases of sexual misconduct among their clergy but that doesnt mean that ministers of other churches are pure.

[kid]

Kasaindia,
Nobody is saying that one religion is better than the other or that all clergy men are perfect. The main thing to me is tha fact that catholic church has a pattern of covering up cases of molestation done by clegy.
It has gone as far as the pope being sued by some catholics due to the extent of this maddness. How can u justify the fact that the catholic church will send their clergy to other states or countries once they are caught sodomizing little boys? And to add insult to injury they will settle such cases out of court and act like nothing happened.
I know some crazy fathers back home whose actions made me very doubtful of their conduct. Anybody who knows the fathers of St Austins will testify.