[Proletariat]

You can all rest assured
>that Christ overcame the power of devil
>by dying on the cross and the devil will
>not overpower our church as promised by
>Christ.

Don't drug devil into this issue. These are bad acts committed by rational and educated members of clergy.

So who is the devil in this case?

[Proletariat]

>This whole hoopla about the catholic
>church and peodhophiles is nothing but
>raving nonsense.

This is not nonsense!! A plethora of facts is in place.

1. Children have testified as having been sexually assulted by priests. In fact, one mother said that she used to let one priest sleep with her kid when he visit, only after a year she realised how the priest was taking care of himself at the expense of the kid.

2. Catholic church in U.S is known to have spent $50 million dealing with such cases, more aimed at cover up.

3. Some congregants have vowed never to set their feet in any catholic church.

Even if this is the case, instead of the church working towards apologizing and comforting the culprits of this inhuman dispensations, it is trying to cover up to protect the name of the church, meaning that it can be let to go on.

Yes other denominations have been mildly cought up in these pedophiles flaws, but 85% goes to catholics. Why?

Some of these monks have been in forceful celibacy and the only viable way for them to ease out this bilogical nature, is turning the wrath to unsuspecting children.

Gay in Catholic priesthood, has become acceptable, which has seriously violate rules of nature and common sense.

Another catholic Bishop from New York, was recently ostracised for marrying when in priesthood. He couldn't continue with it anymore.

Why all this is happening?

The solution is simple: Catholic should stop this hypocratical celibacy, and let those monks and nuns living normal lives.

Several sexual cases of the Catholic pontiff/pope are well known.

[Onyango72]

Babe

I beg to differ with your understanding of what it means to be born-again.

"Every member of Catholic Church is born again, since we are all baptized with water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus explanation of being born again was baptism as practiced by the church".

The book of John chapter 3 clearly talks about what it means to be born again. Not every member of the Catholic Church is born-again because they don't understand what it means. This is the reason I stated in this thread that they are actually born-again Catholics. Baptism is not what saves a person from their sins. It is a sign of obedience. In John chapter 3 Jesus was saying that in order for someone to enter into the kingdom of God, they must be made alive by the spirit of God.

Baptism is an outward sign/testimony of an inward
work of God in a believer. Rom 6:3-5 says, "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life". When a person is baptised, they are in effect says that they have trusted Christ as the only atoning sacrifice for their sins and his is now Lord and savior of their life. Baptism symbolizes that we are buried with Christ into death, and raises like Christ to walk in the abundant life that Christ offers.

May people are baptised before they accept Christ. Unfortunately, that means absolutely noting. Baptism is therefore an outward expression to believers of an inward work of the spirit of God in the life of a believer. Infact the bible says the without the spirit of God drawing people to God, no one can enter the kingdom of God. Baptism is not what saves anyone. It is Jesus Christ death on the cross that saves those that call upon him to save them.

[Babe]

The reason I say that all catholics are Born-again is that we are all initiated into the church through baptism, some while we are infants and others whenever they become members of the church.

One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life?a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3?4; Col. 2:12?13; Titus 3:5).

[Babe]

It is obvious that these priests that are pedophiles are serving their master the devil, since they couldn't be serving Christ. By the way pedophiles have just found an easy access to innocent and unsuspecting children in the church and their evil activity has nothing to do with celebacy.

[Onyango72]

Babe,

I think that you have totally missed the point I was making. Let me quote myself from a pervious post “Baptism is an outward sign/testimony of an inward work of God in a believer. Rom 6:3-5 says, "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life". When a person is baptized, they are in effect says that they have trusted Christ as the only atoning sacrifice for their sins and his is now Lord and savior of their life. Baptism symbolizes that we are buried with Christ into death, and raises like Christ to walk in the abundant life that Christ offers”.

You say that you are initiated into the Catholic Church through baptism. Is this really biblical? I find nowhere in scripture where people were baptized in order to join the Church. Indeed Jesus referred to baptism in John 3:5, and I don’t deny that at all. But to conclude that Baptism is what makes you a member of the Church or a follower of Christ is complete ludicrous and not biblical. The terms born-again, saved, are all interchangeable. How does someone become a Christian (a follower of Christ)? Do they have to be baptized first? There is nowhere in scripture where that happened. Read through the gospels, you will find that “many believed and where baptized (Acts 8:12-13)”. Thus as mentioned above baptism is an outward sign of a deeper inward work of God through the Holy Spirit.

The key question here is what does it mean to be saved/born-again. Remember the terms are interchangeable. Well, according to Rom 10:9-10, which says, “That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. This is how a person becomes a follower of Christ (Christian). Over in Acts 16:31 scripture repeats the same thing again, when it says, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. If you notice there is no mention of Baptism. Faith in Christ is the key to entering heaven. Jesus said in John 14:6 “I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me”. There are many other verses I could mention, but the fact is to be saved/born-again means to accept Christ as the only means by which our sins can be atoned for, otherwise his death on the cross would be meaningless. Baptism is a symbol and an act of obedience on the part of a person who has already professed Christ as Lord and savior.

Finally, let me mention that I was raised Catholic and attend a Catholic High School. There are many doctrines in the Catholic Church that are not biblical. I am not against Catholics in any manner. I am only concerned about truth as revealed in the scriptures. Please don’t take this as an attack on you. This is the reason I posted this thread entitled “Born-again Catholics. You could also call it “Saved Catholics” Pick your choice. It’s the same thing.

[Babe]

Onyango72,
Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again. Jesus said so: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). When a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that God?s grace accomplished in him during baptism.

Regeneration (being "born again") is the transformation from death to life that occurs in our souls when we first come to God and are justified. He washes us clean of our sins and gives us a new nature, breaking the power of sin over us so that we will no longer be its slaves, but its enemies, who must fight it as part of the Christian life (cf. Rom. 6:1?22; Eph. 6:11?17). "born again" describe effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being "born of water and the Spirit. "Peter mentioned this transformation from sin to grace when he exhorted people to "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

We are baptized with water, symbolizing our dying with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and our rising with Christ to the newness of life (Rom. 6:4?5); we receive the gift of sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27); and we are adopted as God?s sons (Rom. 8:15?17). After our Lord?s teaching that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1?21)

The truth that regeneration comes through baptism is confirmed elsewhere in the Bible. Paul reminds us in Titus 3:5 that God "saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit." Paul also said, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life" (Rom. 6:3?4).

Often people miss the fact that baptism gives us new life/new birth because they have an impoverished view of the grace God gives us through baptism, which they think is a mere symbol. But Scripture is clear that baptism is much more than a mere symbol. As Peter said "baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20?21). It does not do so by the water?s physical action, but through the power of Jesus Christ?s resurrection, through baptism?s spiritual effects. Thus showing the supernatural grace God bestows through baptism.

Protestants have abandoned this biblical teaching, substituting man-made theories on regeneration. They claim that one is born again at the first moment of faith in Christ. According to this theory, faith in Christ produces regeneration. They try to deal with the other verses where new life is attributed to baptism either by ignoring them or by arguing that it is not actually water baptism that is being spoken of. The problem for them is that water is explicitly mentioned or implied in each of these verses. In Romans 6 and Colossians 2, Paul reminds his readers of their water baptisms, and he neither says nor implies anything about some sort of "invisible spiritual baptism". The anti-baptismal regeneration position is indefensible. It has no biblical basis whatsoever.

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted"

Once again since all Catholics have been baptized, all Catholics have been born again. Catholics should ask Protestants, "Are you born again the way the Bible explains and teaches that concept?" If one has not been properly baptized with water and in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then he/she has not been born again "the Bible way," regardless of what he/she may think.

[Mau Mau]

Catholicism is one of the vilest religions. It's dealings are shrouded in secrecy. Ask any catho and he can't tell u what his church is all about. He'll probably parrot back the words of some of those books they're forced to cram (brainwashing) in the name of getting holier. It's history will make u puke. These guyz were officially selling tickets to heaven to the rich and cheating the people that the pope can pardon u so that u go straight to heaven (u do not pass go or collect $200, str8 to heaven). They had Crusaders (read bloodthirsty killers) go on rampage in the name of saving the heathen. To convince so many to go to strange lands and kill people with a passion, they told them that it was holy work and that they would go str8 to heaven as saints.
We also know of Catholicism and its involvement in the subjugation and genocide of the Aztecs , and the Native American Indians by Christopher Columbus and his henchmen. In addition, it was reaping benefits from the sale of African slaves to the Americas and the unbalanced Trans-Atlantic trade which was looting both Africa and the Americas and was splitting the loot with the Queen of England and Spain.
Clearly so far we have seen that the myth of the infallibility of the Pope and this church is more important to Rome than the spiritual nourishment of its followers. These guyz did not become the richest church in the world by selling girl scout cookies. They're known to have lots of money invested in various businesses with commercialism being of more interest than spiritual matters. The spiritual part is to just keep up the charade as they further their interests. Some of their business dealings have been very questionable.Their business ties with the Italian and American mob are also known.

So who's the devil?

Babe quit quoting and interpreting the bible like a fanatic. The same bible says by their fruits u shall know them. So even based on the bible I know catholicism is not rooted in holiness.

LOOK AT FACTS AND JUDGE FOR YOURSELF

DON'T BELIEVE EVRYTHING U READ

Emancipate Yourselves from mental slavery
None but ourselves can free our minds

[Mau Mau]

Only a rotten church with nothing to offer can come up with pedophilia as it's official ministerial policy.

Church ya mamolester.

[ngong]

well i guess it all depends on what u believe in

i for one cannot understand why catholics pray to the Virgin Mary whilst Jesus said that "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me"

also the whole of the mass where the priest bring Jesus down from heaven and once again crucifies him during the Eucharist seems strange to me. I thot Jesus said do this in rememberance of me and that never again shall they crucify the son of God.

Also the whole basis of the priesthood is not clear for i find their foundation to be a misinterpration of Jesus's words. I'll just paraphrase when Jesus told Peter, you are Peter and on this rock i shall build my church. according to hebrew peter means little rock or something.