[isso]

C'mon everybody including yourself Zaire. Let's have a mature debate around this...Your comments is exactly why Mwananchi_, myself and others pose the questions we do.

> ONLY FOOLS SAY THAT, THERE IS NO GOD,
>THERE IS NO .....

You don't have to resort to this type of abuse to answer the questions...I bring you back to Mwananchi_'s comments tackling exactly the same...

"Another fishy issue is the way the clergy instilled the fear of the Devil in anyone who tried to question the existence of God. They were and are always
quick to refer to such persons as blasphemous. They always revert to condemning the person all while getting angry and hot under the collar. In any case
they always evade the issue. Some in this forum have taken that position on this very issue."

Now instead of shouting at everybody who dares voice an opinion, please provide constructive views as to where you're coming from...The attitude you are displaying shows some level of disturbing intimidation - more like "You will believe...Or Else!".

I'd also like to point out to y'all that none of the people who've voiced an opinion questioning this subject, has openly denied the existence of a supreme being...Furthermore, I believe that its right that people are exercising their ability to reason based on the hard facts that they know...its unfair for people to come out shouting with rungus at those who voice an alternative opinion..Lets use this forum to have a constructive debate about it and everyone can lay their views on the table.

Peace.

[CODE WARRIOR]

"To know that we know what we know,and that we do not know what we do not know,that is true knowledge"

THE ABOVE STATEMENT MAKES MY POINT THUS I WONT PURPORT TO START A DISCOURSE ON GOD ,BUT ONE THING I KNOW IS ,TRYING TO DECONSTRUCT GOD ,IS LIKE A BLIND MAN IN A DARK ROOM LOOKING FOR A BLACK CAT,THAT IS NOT THERE..ITS AN EXERCISE IN FUTILITY...

[isso]

Code Warrior....

Help me figure this one out...

>IS LIKE A BLIND MAN IN
>A DARK ROOM LOOKING FOR A BLACK CAT,THAT
>IS NOT THERE..ITS AN EXERCISE IN
>FUTILITY...

Would it seriously make a difference to a blind man if the cat was white or yellow! :D.

[CODE WARRIOR]

ISSO.."THE CAT" IS IMAGINARY...AND I HAVE USED THIS SCENARIO AS A HYPOTHETICAL ILLUSTRATION...KAPISH??????;)

[isso]

>ISSO.."THE CAT" IS IMAGINARY...AND I
>HAVE USED THIS SCENARIO AS A
>HYPOTHETICAL
>ILLUSTRATION...KAPISH??????;)

Not exactly code warrior....this one I'd like to understand coz' your hypothesis has some serious fundamental floors that I'll take some time to point out...

1. A blind person doesn't have to be in a dark room as you state to have difficulty looking for anything.

2. The colour of what they're looking for is insignificant...I'll put it to you that a blind person has no perception of colour.

3. A blind person is likely to realise what is fruitless and adopt strategies to deal with it...Case in point, crossing a busy road..Why try live dangerously even if you can when someone else can help you across....Fast forward to your hypothesis, why bother looking for something (whether its there or not), when you know very well you've got no chance of finding it..Get a neighbour to check it out for you and confirm this in less than two seconds.

I'd also like to introduce another twist in this arguement, and trust me on this one...a blind person would know that there was a cat in a room...its not as hard as you think...

You may be thinking to yourself...what point is this moron trying to make...Well! you provided the ultimate tools to use...hypothesis leading to logic...Based on my points above, my view is that nothing is in black and white anymore...Why should I believe that a blind person will find it difficult to locate a black cat in a dark room when common sense dictates that the room doesn't have to be dark and the cat doesn't have to be black for the blind person not to find a cat, something they are unlikely to do anyway, coz' any level headed blind person is capable of telling whether there's a cat in the room or not, or deciding what is fruitless or not.

Apply this to anything in life including religion and when you start reasoning with some logic, some explanations as I've just illustrated raise some serious contention.

Hola.

[Wballs]

I sure believe in a super-natural being since not even science has proven to me the origin of the entire universe. But i'm convinced that Jesus is pure propaganda.

If you're born, Hindu,Islam, Buddhist,etc
you gonna burn in hell. HELLLOO !!! Like it's your fault to be hindu, muslim or whatever else they got out there. I don't know of a religion that tells people to kill,rob or do bad stuff, as a matter of fact some religions teach better morals than christianity

What happened to the God of kirinyaga? Wasn't he good enough for us till the missionaries messed it up for us. OOH!! They called our God primitive.

Maze our God didn't rip us off like they do in churches nowadays.

Wouldn't you like to brainwash people and make money from it. Maze where is society heading.

HEY why didn't jesus go to africa.

We all warship the same God, it don' matter what side you fall on. Keep your good morals, smoke Pot and you good to go. peace

[mwananchi_]

You ask people a simple question. Is there God. They have not an iota of proof. They try to throw you off by being vague and by using convoluted language. For example:

"To know that we know what we know,and that we do not know what we do not know,that is true knowledge"

"THE ABOVE STATEMENT MAKES MY POINT THUS I WONT PURPORT TO START A DISCOURSE ON GOD ,BUT ONE THING I KNOW IS ,TRYING TO DECONSTRUCT GOD ,IS LIKE A BLIND MAN IN A DARK ROOM LOOKING FOR A BLACK CAT,THAT IS NOT THERE..ITS AN EXERCISE IN FUTILITY..."

That is all hogwash, bull****, and crap. It gets us no closer to where we were in the beginning. Once again God is shrouded in mystery.

WOULD IT BE TOO MUCH TO ASK:

1. That God avail himself to humanity and soon.
2. That God tells us exactly what he wants of us so we quit playing the guessing game.
3. Since he's all knowing and almighty, that he goes ahead to do the needful without having to hear from us. I mean we are mere mortals, objectS of his creation. Why does he need to hear from us before doing the obvious. Is this some kind of silly game?

4. Being all wise and all-knowing and the creator of heaven and earth, he desist from requiring the humility, praise, worship, and obidience of mere humans whom he created. I mean what satisfactin would one derive from puppets he created praising and lifting up his name. Has God nothing better to do with his all-knowing, all-powerful, all-present, almighty self? Hell, I'm only human and I can come up with a dozen ways to better spend my time and talents.

I mean he knows what everybody on earth needs and wants and he has the power to grant it. Why doesn't he just go ahead and do it. Why do we have to spend hours on end praying, begging, praising, worshipping and tithing to God before he does the needful. Is he a sadist or does he get an ego boost for having us beg for things he knows we already need? What's up with that?

4. A friend of mine said he does not want to go to heaven because it will be full of forbidden fruits. At first I thought he was joking. However a leopard does not change it's spots. Back in the day when God created Adam and Eve and put them in the garden of Eden. He found it necessary to create a forbidden fruit in the middle of the garden. What for totally beats me. He was just setting them up for failure. Given that we are dealing with the same God today, we should not expect heaven to be that simple. He will have traps, puzzles, trials, mazes, jigzaw puzzles to overcome. Any failure in any of the above will lead to dire consequences. So much for a Good and Merciful God.

5. If I was God I would have created a heaven, then created billions upon billions of people and put them in heaven. No forbidden fruits, no traps or games. Just let everybody be happy with life. It would have cost me nothing.

6. I dare God to show up where we can see Him and question Him. If he is so great and mighty and wise, why does he not appear before us? Is he afraid of us.... I mean we do not bite? Does he have something to hide? Is he not confident enough to show up before his creatures? What is all this mystery about?. Is he not totally confident of his looks?

I mean God why all this mystery if you are truly the one and only God, the most powerful, the creator of heaven and earth. Are you ashamed to appear before your creations? Why keep on sending messagers and indirect messages. How the hell are we supposed to tell whose telling the truth and whose just messing with us? Why don't you just show up and tell us what's up?

I mean they say that Christians are the Salt of the Earth and they shall be known by their deeds. How about you set an example for your followers?

GOD HOW DO YOU EXPECT US TO WORSHIP, FEAR, RESPECT AND PRAISE YOU WHEN WE'VE NEVER SEEN YOU, HEARD FROM YOU ETC...

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE REST BUT UNLESS YOU SHOW UP AND TELL ME WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON, DON'T GO ABOUT BLAMING AND CONVICTING ME FOR NOT BELIEVING IN YOU. HEY I WAS JUST BEING CAREFUL. HOW THE HECK I'M I SUPPOSED TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN YOU, THE DEVIL, JUJU, EVIL SPIRITS, VODOO, GHOSTS ETC.. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE COURTESY TO SHOW UP AND DECLARE YOURSELF AS THE TRUE GOD?

-Mwananchi

[saas]

>I sure believe in a super-natural being
>since not even science has proven to me
>the origin of the entire universe. But
>i'm convinced that Jesus is pure
>propaganda.
>
>If you're born, Hindu,Islam,
>Buddhist,etc
>you gonna burn in hell. HELLLOO !!! Like
>it's your fault to be hindu, muslim or
>whatever else they got out there. I
>don't know of a religion that tells
>people to kill,rob or do bad stuff, as a
>matter of fact some religions teach
>better morals than christianity
>
>What happened to the God of kirinyaga?
>Wasn't he good enough for us till the
>missionaries messed it up for us. OOH!!
>They called our God primitive.
>
>Maze our God didn't rip us off like they
>do in churches nowadays.
>
>Wouldn't you like to brainwash people
>and make money from it. Maze where is
>society heading.
>
>HEY why didn't jesus go to africa.
>
>We all warship the same God, it don'
>matter what side you fall on. Keep your
>good morals, smoke Pot and you good to
>go. peace .Being a born again christian all i can do is pray for Wballs,God is the everlasting father and theres no way towards him but through his son jesus christ who paid the ransom for our sins at the cross.This is true if you believe or not,HELL is true if you believe it or not,Anybody who doesnt believe Jesus died for our sins and rose again in the third day will burn in hell thats for sure Matthew 12-36 But i say unto you,that every idle word that man shall speak,they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Lastly the word of God(the Bible)is the truth weither you believe or not.God bless you

[Gerry]

Wassup people,

guyz always sema that if there is a "God" then why does he allow all that bad stuff to endelea in the world.

I will endeavour to illustrate the fact that this is a flawed argument.

1. The statement is made on the assumption that there is no God. (obviously, as in it tries to illustrate the non-existence of God)

2. If we take it that there is no God, then there is no real reason for morals as such; for one of the qualities of "God" as we know (or dont know Him, for that matter) is His goodness. Take away God and good and bad stuff cease to exist altogether.

3. Thus, if there is no God, then the person puting forward the statement "why does He allow all the pain and the sorrow to occur in the world" is merely in contradiction. The world's pain and sorrow infer's some sort of harm, evil somewhere down the line.

4. If evil exists, there must be some sort of countermeasure against it. That countermeasure is known as "good" (ref: proverbial good vs evil)

5. And where does goodness come from? God.( ref to the statement "if God is so 'Good' then why...)

Thus, according to the aforementioned, it is easy to see that the jamaa who semaz that "if God is so good, why does he let us suffer like this" only proves that God IS actually good (which, I'm sure, wasn't plan A).

Let me add that if God IS actually good, then He IS. The word "is" extrapolates a sense of being, existence.

So if you say "if God..." in a bid to disprove His presence, you are actually doing the opposite. A better argument is needed to disprove the existence of God.

I for one will be more than willing to listen to a good argument as to the (non-)existence of God.

[mwananchi_]

Thanks Gerry. I am not trying to dispute that there is a God. Actually I'm seeking Him. I'm trying to find Him and understand Him. However I want to be certain that I am dealing with the one and true God.

It is written that there will be many false prophets. My fear is that I might go ahead and believe one of the false ones and go ahead and dedicate my whole life and being to the wrong God, only to be condemned of Judgement Day for not following the one and true God.

My suggestion to God is that He shows up, clears the air on this issue once and for all and proves that He is indeed the real God. Then we can make informed choices. Absent of this we might as well be walking a godly landmine.

-Mwananchi