Satan is not evil he is Christians true savior not Jesus.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by al-zalzalah

rape-room? ATLian, you have quite the interesting imagination.

Sometimes you need to put things in the worst way possible to make people realize how evil something is, and to really drive a point home. That's why when you say "God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah", that doesn't really affect many people. But when you write "God sent down fire and brimstone from heaven which crushed and roasted alive all little innocent baby boys and girls, whose only sin was that their uncles were performing consentual gay sex on each other", then that wakes up more people to the evils that Jehovah commits.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by teejay

Wajibu, before we proceed further, I think it is becoming increasingly important that you first enlighten me on what you understand by the word "Evil". I am asking you this because I can see that your criticism is tethered around the word.

We all know what evil means. It is not an ambiguous word. I think that the only time EVIL can mean something different to a Person X is when that Person X wants to defend someone from an accusation of doing evil. That's when Person X fudges around with the definition of evil to make the person he is defending look less culpable.

I think it is very clear that the person who TeeJay is defending here is Jehovah. An all-good god should never do any evil or should never be in a situation where we discuss whether what he did was good or evil. He should thus never need defending from evil. The fact that TeeJay has to do this just shows that he has been involved with evil!

[teejay]

Originally Posted by ATLian

We all know what evil means. It is not an ambiguous word. I think that the only time EVIL can mean something different to a Person X is when that Person X wants to defend someone from an accusation of doing evil. That's when Person X fudges around with the definition of evil to make the person he is defending look less culpable.

I think it is very clear that the person who TeeJay is defending here is Jehovah. An all-good god should never do any evil or should never be in a situation where we discuss whether what he did was good or evil. He should thus never need defending from evil. The fact that TeeJay has to do this just shows that he has been involved with evil!

Spoken like a true Atheist!

Still you failed to grasp the gist of my last response to Wajibu.

If you only knew that this word Evil (ra^ah/ra in Hebrew)occurs so many times in the Hebrew bible and that there is need to decipher its contextual application, you'd look wise in silence. You'd be surprised to discover that it does not only apply to Moral Evil as is irredeemably engraved in your mind.

Secondly, I can never defend God. He can do it better than me. I am only trying to explain away the usage of the word Evil as used in the various verses.

Wajibu the ball's on your court.

[Mureithi1964]

Originally Posted by wajibu

A while back someone pointed out how Satan is the unsung hero. Satan is not evil, he is the truth if I was a Christian I would trust him more and skeptical about God intentions. Satan is only guilty for being principled and rebelling against God’s evil ways. God being the ego maniac who hates dissidents and criticism condemned him to hell and blamed him for his evil ways. Christians can’t pinpoint anywhere in the bible where Satan is responsible for causing evil but I will exhibit numerous instances God was evil. God has admitted creating evil. Sometimes, Satan sounds likes Gods alter ego than an adversary. Even when Satan approached Adam and Eve he did not threaten with evil; he was presented and articulated his case which turned out to be true. God in his evil genius had entrusted the future of humankind on two naïve people. Who was more deceptive God or Satan? Did Satan commit delusion of grandeur by offering Adam and eve path of truth? What kind of benevolent God would banish and punish the entire human race for finding the truth from Satan. Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil so they had no way of knowing what’s wrong. God being omniscient was too aware of what would happen.

This is the only true instances in the bible where Satan is involved with inflicting evil

• Job 1:6-2:3. In these 2 chapters Satan kills Jobs family, takes away everything he has and give him a horrible disease but all with the permission from God. He asks God if he could do those things to him.

On the flip side God is twisted, evil and a psychopath capable of the most horrible crimes

• Genesis 7:23 He killed, intentionally, every man, woman, and child on the planet save eight of them.

• God commands Hagar go back into servanthood and bear children for her master though she does not want to. Genesis 16:7-9

• Genesis 19:23-25 God burns down a whole city (women and children included) simply because they were supposedly homosexual.

• Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and that the Lord slew him. How was Er wicked? The Bible doesn’t give us this bit of information, only that Er was wicked in the sight of the Lord. Genesis 38:7

• Genesis 38:10 God murders Onan for refusing to commit incest with his sister in law.

• God endorses slavery. He even set up laws as to how slavery was to be carried out, and goes as far as okaying beating them. Exodus 21:2-6

• God sanctioned the selling of ones daughter. How can any being tell another to literally sell their child into slavery? Disgusting.. Exodus 21:7

• Exodus 32:27 God ordered to be killed, 3,000 Israelites for no greater crime than worshipping a golden calf. I don’t know about you, but death is a pretty harsh f@cking punishment.

• Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shill ye eat.

• Leviticus 27:28-29: God ordered and allowed human sacrifices.

• Numbers 31:17-18 God commands Moses to kill all the Medianite people including children and women. To top it off he commands that the virgins be saved for later raping by Moses’ soldiers

.

• Deuteronomy 3:3-7: God ordered Moses’ army to "utterly destroy" 60 cities, killing all the women and children within.

• Deuteronomy 7:12: God ordered the Israelites to kill all the people of seven nations. He even adds, "show no mercy unto them".

• Deuteronomy 20:16: God orders that we kill everything that breathes in the cities that he gives us for an inheritance

blasphemy

[teejay]

Mureithi, you don't need to brand Wajibu blasphemous. He lacks understanding on something Simple.

He is simply using Human standards to judge God who created him. Which means he is pretty much God's property as much as you and me.

If God was human, then his kind of reasoning which is pretty homo-wisdom would actually make alot of sense. No one would like to associate with God. But since God is not human, this counts as a rant which is born out of a misunderstanding of some kind.

[wajibu]

Originally Posted by teejay

Mureithi, you don't need to brand Wajibu blasphemous. He lacks understanding on something Simple.

He is simply using Human standards to judge God who created him. Which means he is pretty much God's property as much as you and me.

If God was human, then his kind of reasoning which is pretty homo-wisdom would actually make alot of sense. No one would like to associate with God. But since God is not human, this counts as a rant which is born out of a misunderstanding of some kind.

Funny you have a capacity to judge God but according to you I lack that ability. Tell me what kind of knowledge I need to Judge or know a Christian God. To help you, let me give you some statistics about me; I have a Masters in Engineering, read and studied the bible and all the other major religions extensively. I also consider myself an amateur historian, a secret enthusiast of the past who toils in obscurity researching. One challenge was finding the origin of the bible, the different translations, amendments, credibility and integrity. Teejay, you can’t live your life being apologetic to God and bible failures. My stand is always backed with facts not wild imaginations. If a simple folk in the village can claim to understand God and the bible clearly, I think I’m in a better position to give a more informed opinion. Mine will be more researched and incorporating all fields. The reason you dismiss me as uninformed and lacks understanding about God is because of your own shortcomings. You lack a good explanation why God is so evil. So your best bet is to go on the attack, character assassinate and discredit the messenger. I bet you would be enraged by Satan if he committed genocide on a whole community because of one person mistake but what’s astounding is why you give God a free pass for the same horrific acts. Why are you so quick to defend God for committing such crimes against humanity?

[teejay]

Originally Posted by wajibu

Funny you have a capacity to judge God but according to you I lack that ability.

Kindly direct this statement to the right person.

Originally Posted by wajibu

Tell me what kind of knowledge I need to Judge or know a Christian God.

The beginning of Wisdom lies in fearing (acknowledging and respecting)God(Proverb 1:7). Do you think you have it?

Originally Posted by wajibu

To help you, let me give you some statistics about me; I have a Masters in Engineering, read and studied the bible and all the other major religions extensively. I also consider myself an amateur historian, a secret enthusiast of the past who toils in obscurity researching. One challenge was finding the origin of the bible, the different translations, amendments, credibility and integrity.

Spare me the braggadocio. I need to see substance in your arguments. Any any case how has engineering, for instance, helped you understand God?

Originally Posted by wajibu

Teejay, you can’t live your life being apologetic to God and bible failures. My stand is always backed with facts not wild imaginations.

If talking in favour of my faith means being apologetic then, I am in. Place your facts here and let us debate them. We will test them and see whether they are imaginary facts or substantive ones.

Originally Posted by wajibu

If a simple folk in the village can claim to understand God and the bible clearly, I think I’m in a better position to give a more informed opinion. Mine will be more researched and incorporating all fields.

I think your boasting and your little education is blinding you. There are people who were pioneers of the things you have done and still pegged their faith on the same God I worship today. Don't talk as if you are the only learned fellow walking the face of this earth.

By today's Standards, for instance Paul would be a great Barrister. Luke would be an accomplished Doctor of today's Frank Njenga's caliber.

Originally Posted by wajibu

The reason you dismiss me as uninformed and lacks understanding about God is because of your own shortcomings.

I should be glad to know my shortcomings, Sir. After all everything I know has been imparted into me by other people. Would you be kind enough to enlighten me.

Secondly, the word "Uninformed" can be variously applied. Now, that does not necessarily mean that your most exalted education is rubbished. But education as we all know, does not grant anyone every information under the sun. There is more to obtaining information than just sticking our heads in bulky books.

Originally Posted by wajibu

You lack a good explanation why God is so evil.

You have mentioned your expertise in several areas, among them religious matters. I think that alone is able to tell anyone that you make an astute religious debater,or so I thought.

I think it would be good for you to enlighten me and indeed everyone else here first on the definition of word Evil.

Originally Posted by wajibu

So your best bet is to go on the attack, character assassinate and discredit the messenger.

In my faith even the messenger is held accountable.

• What message does he carry?
• Whose message is it?
• Why does he chose to burden himself with task of carrying and bearing that message?
• Does he believe in the message?

Originally Posted by wajibu

I bet you would be enraged by Satan if he committed genocide on a whole community because of one person mistake but what’s astounding is why you give God a free pass for the same horrific acts.

Wajibu you lack sound premise upon which the foundation of your argument is cemented. I think that your knowledge of the bible as you have boastfully stressed to me above, should inform you that Satan is not the creator and therefore does not own anything. He is as much a subject just as you and I. Any lawyer here will tell you that should Satan destroy, Kill or maim, he will be unlawfully causing harm to the property owner who in this case is God.

God on the other hand, as the rightful owner, has the right to take out trash and burn or dispose of it in the manner suitable and satisfactory to him.

Thirdly Death is horrific to Man, but to God, it is a mere slumber. He has the ability to bring back to life that which is without life. He can animate the inanimate.

Originally Posted by wajibu

Why are you so quick to defend God for committing such crimes against humanity?

Your argument is not very different from what my friend ATLian has been posting here for ages.

You are basing this statement on the assumption that God fits into your Human Rights definition. Well, God is not Human and those human rights don't apply to Him. Like I said before, you and I are God's property. You cannot accuse him of impropriety when he pass his judgment.

By virtue of being the creator he is also the Supreme Judge.

[wajibu]

If talking in favor of my faith means being apologetic then, I am in.

I think you just answered and confirmed the fundamental conflict experienced by Christians. That explains everything and that is all you got blind faith which does not require logic. So all the other blabbering is just to cover for your own insufficiency. That is why you indeed find Gods evil good and falsified evil about Satan appalling although they are virtually the same thing.

The beginning of Wisdom lies in fearing (acknowledging and respecting) God(Proverb 1:7).

I choose to differ unless you are calling Atheist and other people who practice different faith stupid.

I think your boasting and your little education is blinding you.

You missed my point and you are now trying to make this about something else. There is no competition here. Instead of attacking me; explain why I lack the ability to read and comprehend the bible just like you acclaimed Christians. Even your poor attempt of describing evil as ra or changing the definition of evil; the bible gives it a clear distinction “It means essentially someone guilty or in the wrong”. The bible is unequivocally clear, nothing ambiguous about what God created. Lord or Jehovah made all things himself including the wicked. So stop with your flimsy excuses and acknowledge what the bible says. I am not quoting anything that is not in the bible.

Wajibu you lack sound premise upon which the foundation of your argument is cemented. I think that your knowledge of the bible as you have boastfully stressed to me above, should inform you that Satan is not the creator and therefore does not own anything. He is as much a subject just as you and I. Any lawyer here will tell you that should Satan destroy, Kill or maim, he will be unlawfully causing harm to the property owner who in this case is God.

The premise was simple and I’m yet to get a conclusive answer from you. You claim Satan destroys, kills and maims. Show me by quoting your beloved bible where Satan did all this. I pointed one case where Satan tortured Job with direct authority from God. In contrast God derives a lot of pleasure torturing and killing. Stop with the shenanigans and excuses tap dancing around this topic. It is getting old; show me a case where Satan committed those atrocities. Also in your response you admitted God has the right to create and destroy since he is just claiming what it’s rightfully his. I don’t know if that displays your God in good light. It is just confirms God sadistic nature characterized by his hedonistic killing.

[YB*]

Originally Posted by chowkidar

Satan doesn't have the power to kill people, but to induce them to kill themself, or to kill others, including their families, Satan is the one who tells you to do that things, but you are the one that take the action.

Victim mentality!! Unless its a case of madness or an accident.

Every bad thing done by man is mans responsibility. If satan had the power to make you act, hen God would not punish you as he knows its not you action.

If you believe in the existence of satan then you better say, he offers one a more evil route. You choose to take it.

[YB*]

Originally Posted by Mtumishi wa Mungu

How then would you know who deserves the reward? How would you decide who loves God and who does not? How would obedience to God be defined?

What reward?? He has the capacity to create perfect beings (angels). He can create perfect humans and reward them. Interesting stories Christians have.