Satan is not evil he is Christians true savior not Jesus.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by Mtumishi wa Mungu

He [Satan] hates humans especially believers..

You still haven't told us why Satan hates humans?

I can argue the other way too. God hates unbelievers so much that he will burn them all in hell forever. There are maybe 2 Billion Christians in the world, and I bet you that most of them are just Christian by name, not by actions. This means that most of them will not be in heaven. Let's be generous and assume that half of them will go to heaven. So here is god "loving" 1 Billion people and hating and planning to kill the other 5 Billion people. Satan on the other hand hates the 1 Billion and has "love" for the other 5 Billion. Who is the one filled with hate here?

[Mtumishi wa Mungu]

Originally Posted by ATLian

Why did god put that choice there in the first place? If there was no evil to chose from, then man would not commit evil! Period!

How then would you know who deserves the reward? How would you decide who loves God and who does not? How would obedience to God be defined? Supposing we all go to a football field to play football and somebody says. "there should be no opposing team or penalties, nor refferees, nor red cards, then we would just win the game.." makes sense right? How would the winners be selected?
Play the game according to the rules..

1 Corinthians 9.24 NIV
"Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize."

[Mtumishi wa Mungu]

Originally Posted by ATLian

You still haven't told us why Satan hates humans?

he knows, he hates God's creation because he is opposing the works of God.. He is an enemy of God..

Originally Posted by ATLian

and I bet you that most of them are just Christian by name, not by actions. This means that most of them will not be in heaven.

You see, from your own testimony, they don't love him by their actions, so they themselves make the wrong choice..

Originally Posted by ATLian

Satan on the other hand hates the 1 Billion and has "love" for the other 5 Billion. Who is the one filled with hate here?

The word Love does not apply to Satan..

Originally Posted by ATLian

So here is god "loving" 1 Billion people and hating and planning to kill the other 5 Billion people.

Consider this scripture carefully.. Repent and choose life Atlian..

Ezekiel 18.23 NIV
"Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?"

[teejay]

Originally Posted by wajibu

[LEFT]God has admitted creating evil.

I think it is lack of Genius and the height of Hypocrisy for Wajibu to go thought so much trouble in pasting a myriad biblical verses yet completely ignore the the contextual usage of the word "evil" or "ra" as it appears in the Hebrew bible. Needless to mention that he also failed to scrutinize all the occurrences of the word ra. As result he came up with /or has been holding a half-backed "conclusive" opinion on the matter.

But before we proceed, I think it is prudent that we must first look at the statement itself

Isaiah 45:6-7

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Please take note of the underlined preceding statement.

It is obvious that when Light is withdrawn, Darkness encompasses everything around. If ,for instance, that were to be experimented in our world today, it will suffice to call the world an abyss. The First part of that whole verse simply implies that.

Taking the cue from the exegesis of the first part is only right to say without prejudice that When Peace is withdrawn then it is possible that the Vacuum is quickly filled with evil. Thus by withdrawing his peace God simply means that bad (also called evil) things take root within our human society. The divine balance is such that withdrawal of one leads to the other.

Case study:

When Israel rejected the Good News a time reached when Jesus proclaimed a divine prophecy that was to visit the Hebrew Nation. He uttered words that had severe implications upon the unheading masses. He did not end it there, but also revoked the favour that Israel enjoyed with the Father. He declared that the "kingdom of God will be taken away from you (unproductive Israel) and given to a people who will produce its fruit." And with that the gates were now opened unto the willing Gentiles who now became part of the New Israel-The Church.

In his prophetic vision, he saw no stone lying upon another, as he had earlier declared in his pronouncement "Your house is left desolate unto thee". Implying that the divine protection and the Shekinah (God's presence in the temple) was being withdrawn. Yet even in the face of all these warnings, the house of Jacob headed not. Israel refused to make peace with God.

In 70 AD after Jesus was lifted to heaven, the Romans under their Chief Commanding Officer Titus, Invaded Jerusalem and burnt down the Temple. There was mass destruction and Israel was scattered upon the face of the earth. Not one stone was left atop the other. Historical account on this incident paint a very grim picture of what took place.

Israelites wandered on this earth until Adolf Hitler in his holocaust brutality made them long for a place they could call home

[teejay]

Originally Posted by ATLian

I can argue the other way too. God hates unbelievers so much that he will burn them all in hell forever.

It is not the First time I have seen you repeat this statement over and over. There is a point at which some things must be stopped. Today I am asking you to boldly elaborate what you understand by that statement.

Originally Posted by ATLian

God hates unbelievers

God hates Sin and not the people. The people fall victim of God's Judgment by allowing themselves to indulge in that Sin which God dislikes.

Surely we all punish our children not because we hate them but because there is need to correct them to be better persons in future.

[Mtumishi wa Mungu]

Originally Posted by teejay

God hates Sin and not the people.

Thanks Teejay.. God hates sin and loves the sinners.. Even Jesus said God makes his sun shine onto all people.. he told us to love our enemies.. he hates sin... this scriptures testify that..

John 3.16 NIV
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Isaiah 1.18 NIV
"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool."

[wajibu]

Originally Posted by teejay

I think it is lack of Genius and the height of Hypocrisy for Wajibu to go thought so much trouble in pasting a myriad biblical verses yet completely ignore the the contextual usage of the word "evil" or "ra" as it appears in the Hebrew bible. Needless to mention that he also failed to scrutinize all the occurrences of the word ra. As result he came up with /or has been holding a half-backed "conclusive" opinion on the matter.

But before we proceed, I think it is prudent that we must first look at the statement itself

Isaiah 45:6-7

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Please take note of the underlined preceding statement.

It is obvious that when Light is withdrawn, Darkness encompasses everything around. If ,for instance, that were to be experimented in our world today, it will suffice to call the world an abyss. The First part of that whole verse simply implies that.

Taking the cue from the exegesis of the first part is only right to say without prejudice that When Peace is withdrawn then it is possible that the Vacuum is quickly filled with evil. Thus by withdrawing his peace God simply means that bad (also called evil) things take root within our human society. The divine balance is such that withdrawal of one leads to the other.

First God is credited for creating everything so Evil is just part of his creation. Unless Evil existed before light and darkness then your explanation can’t fly. Gen:1:4 God created darkness so if I understand what you are saying, without light evil reigns then again it is imperative to think God is guilty of creating evil. Lamentations 3:38 says that both calamities and good things come from the most high. Gen. 3:22 God made an interesting statement before banishing Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden “And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil”. It shows God had already created Evil and was not brought by man sinning. Even in the New Testament God claims he made everything John 1:3. And Christ even said Satan has no powers not even Power over man. So if Satan can’t do squat why get blamed for it.

[al-zalzalah]

Originally Posted by ATLian

How can you say "God creates evil" then is the next breath ask "How is God evil"??? Anyone who creates evil is by definition an evil being. If I build a room for which the sole purpose is for men to come and rape little babies, then I am evil, whether or not I actually ever rape a little baby myself. God both created evil and commits evil, so using my rape-room analogy, god both built the room and also participates in the rape of the babies.

rape-room? ATLian, you have quite the interesting imagination.

Originally Posted by ATLian

There was this story in Florida where this guy had a pet python. One day it killed his girlfriend's baby. The question everyone asked was why the heck he had a python in the house in the first place knowing that there was a child in the house. Those two do not mix. His excuse was that the python was always in this one room, and the child should never have gone to that room, etc. It was a very retarded argument, just like this choice of evil argument. Why did god put that choice there in the first place?

actually, if that was the question that was on everybody's mind, then they were retarded!
the question on my mind was which sane woman allows boyfie to house a python under the same roof as her flesh-and-blood babies. he was just a boyfriend. the woman was actually a mother to kids. priorities.
it doesn't even make sense that people should be able to buy constrictors as pets and put them in their homes. these americans take "taming the wild" to some crazy extremes.
there's a reason why normal people are scared of snakes and other creatures of the wild.

[Best Man]

Originally Posted by wajibu

A while back someone pointed out how Satan is the unsung hero. Satan is not evil, he is the truth if I was a Christian I would trust him more and skeptical about God intentions. Satan is only guilty for being principled and rebelling against God’s evil ways. God being the ego maniac who hates dissidents and criticism condemned him to hell and blamed him for his evil ways. Christians can’t pinpoint anywhere in the bible where Satan is responsible for causing evil but I will exhibit numerous instances God was evil. God has admitted creating evil. Sometimes, Satan sounds likes Gods alter ego than an adversary. Even when Satan approached Adam and Eve he did not threaten with evil; he was presented and articulated his case which turned out to be true. God in his evil genius had entrusted the future of humankind on two naïve people. Who was more deceptive God or Satan? Did Satan commit delusion of grandeur by offering Adam and eve path of truth? What kind of benevolent God would banish and punish the entire human race for finding the truth from Satan. Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil so they had no way of knowing what’s wrong. God being omniscient was too aware of what would happen.

This is the only true instances in the bible where Satan is involved with inflicting evil

• Job 1:6-2:3. In these 2 chapters Satan kills Jobs family, takes away everything he has and give him a horrible disease but all with the permission from God. He asks God if he could do those things to him.

On the flip side God is twisted, evil and a psychopath capable of the most horrible crimes

• Genesis 7:23 He killed, intentionally, every man, woman, and child on the planet save eight of them.

• God commands Hagar go back into servanthood and bear children for her master though she does not want to. Genesis 16:7-9

• Genesis 19:23-25 God burns down a whole city (women and children included) simply because they were supposedly homosexual.

• Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and that the Lord slew him. How was Er wicked? The Bible doesn’t give us this bit of information, only that Er was wicked in the sight of the Lord. Genesis 38:7

• Genesis 38:10 God murders Onan for refusing to commit incest with his sister in law.

• God endorses slavery. He even set up laws as to how slavery was to be carried out, and goes as far as okaying beating them. Exodus 21:2-6

• God sanctioned the selling of ones daughter. How can any being tell another to literally sell their child into slavery? Disgusting.. Exodus 21:7

• Exodus 32:27 God ordered to be killed, 3,000 Israelites for no greater crime than worshipping a golden calf. I don’t know about you, but death is a pretty harsh f@cking punishment.

• Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shill ye eat.

• Leviticus 27:28-29: God ordered and allowed human sacrifices.

• Numbers 31:17-18 God commands Moses to kill all the Medianite people including children and women. To top it off he commands that the virgins be saved for later raping by Moses’ soldiers

.

• Deuteronomy 3:3-7: God ordered Moses’ army to "utterly destroy" 60 cities, killing all the women and children within.

• Deuteronomy 7:12: God ordered the Israelites to kill all the people of seven nations. He even adds, "show no mercy unto them".

• Deuteronomy 20:16: God orders that we kill everything that breathes in the cities that he gives us for an inheritance

Take counsel of the years.

Sometime we exude some misguided enthusiasm once we've gain a little

periphery knowldege on a subject.

While it is Okay to display atitude which is characteristic of lack of indepth understanding, a little more reading and listening may shed more light and open your eyes.

I am not an expert on the bible, but after scoring a dstinction in CRE at

O-Level, I walked around with the same illusions.

There is no other God other than Jehovah.

[teejay]

Originally Posted by wajibu

First God is credited for creating everything so Evil is just part of his creation. Unless Evil existed before light and darkness then your explanation can’t fly. Gen:1:4 God created darkness so if I understand what you are saying, without light evil reigns then again it is imperative to think God is guilty of creating evil. Lamentations 3:38 says that both calamities and good things come from the most high. Gen. 3:22 God made an interesting statement before banishing Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden “And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil”. It shows God had already created Evil and was not brought by man sinning. Even in the New Testament God claims he made everything John 1:3. And Christ even said Satan has no powers not even Power over man. So if Satan can’t do squat why get blamed for it.

Wajibu, before we proceed further, I think it is becoming increasingly important that you first enlighten me on what you understand by the word "Evil". I am asking you this because I can see that your criticism is tethered around the word.

Please note that I have not wished away your response above.