The Vatican Encyclopedia

[Ndigila2]

I've finally given in .

Atabong, whenever you've attacked the historical authenticity on another thread, and I responded, you've always told me to start a different discussion titled 'the vatican encyclopedia.' Well, here you go.

Let us discuss the historical problems you see with Christianity, in a respectable way, and one at a time, specifically with the following comments you made

Originally Posted by Atabong

I am not claiming to ‘know it all’. I am merely present ideas and hoping that some one will challenge them within the scope of reason...

Originally Posted by Atabong

I have read the history and spirituality of most religious concepts and feel I understand enough to know that they are nothing but hoax.

There's numerous threads discussing the impact of western christianity on Africa. I do not wish for that discussion to spill over here just the way you don't want discussions about the origins of Christianity/Islam spilling over into those threads.

I also ask that you present your own argument and not post links to articles or youtube videos made by people much smarter than us. I'm more interested in how well you defend the position you hold.

This is a polite request. If you accept, then please let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum. If you reject, then that's fine; see you in the other threads.

[Ester]

Originally Posted by Ndigila2

I've finally given in.

Lol I see that Ndigilapedia...

I'll be following this thread keenly, hope it picks up steam. Ciao...

[Atabong]

Originally Posted by Ndigila2

I've finally given in .

Atabong, whenever you've attacked the historical authenticity on another thread, and I responded, you've always told me to start a different discussion titled 'the vatican encyclopedia.' Well, here you go.

Hi Ndigila2, thanks for the invitation. But I must begin by letting you know that I think you must have misunderstood and misrepresented my views.

I encourage you to start a 'Vatican encyclopedia thread' because I feel your opinions have everything to do with faith not reason/logic or fact and that to a large extent such views (which are not yours anyway) only help to deepen our schism.
Without intent to ridicule, I also observe that you’ll feel more comfortable in a ‘Vatican encyclopedia thread’ since you can seize the opportunity to spread the word.

Originally Posted by Ndigila2

Let us discuss the historical problems you see with Christianity, in a respectable way, and one at a time, specifically with the following comments you made ‘I am not claiming to ‘know it all’. I am merely presenting ideas and hoping that some one will challenge them within the scope of reason'

I do not believe in the concept of a white God and original sin and I have in numerous instances presented my views as to why I don’t. I grew up in a sub-Saharan African countryside where our people did not lock anything up yet nothing was ever stolen, there was never even a hint of rape, homosexuality, bestiality and all these other horrible practices brought in by European and Arab imperialists

I do believe every human being is born good, innocent, pure, perfect and free.

Please support the concept of original sin within the scope of reason.

Originally Posted by Ndigila2

There's numerous threads discussing the impact of western christianity on Africa. I do not wish for that discussion to spill over here just the way you don't want discussions about the origins of Christianity/Islam spilling over into those threads.

I also ask that you present your own argument and not post links to articles or youtube videos made by people much smarter than us. I'm more interested in how well you defend the position you hold.

I’m sure you’d vouch for me, that I write a lot (much more than you do) and I also provide links to research material and videos that I think best explains what I am talking about. If you have any worries about the authenticity of these videos or feel personally offended, you can ask me to remove them.

To say, ‘people smatter than us’ sounds to me to be very broad, can you expatiate?

Originally Posted by Ndigila2

This is a polite request. If you accept, then please let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum. If you reject, then that's fine; see you in the other threads.

Pls present arguments within the scope of reason/logic and fact, your request is humbly accepted. Thanks

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by Ester

Lol I see that Ndigilapedia...

Ndigilapedia, how sweet.

Perhaps that should have been the title of this thread.


What in the world happened to this website?!?!?

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by Atabong

I encourage you to start a 'Vatican encyclopedia thread' because I feel your opinions have everything to do with faith not reason/logic or fact and that to a large extent such views (which are not yours anyway) only help to deepen our schism.

Atabong, this isn't true, I've always presented you with historical facts rebutting your attacks on Christian history, which you've always dismissed as irrelevant to the thread. So what you've been dismissing, I'd like discussed in this thread.

Originally Posted by Atabong

I do not believe in the concept of a white God and original sin and I have in numerous instances presented my views as to why I don’t.

Atabong, I don't believe in a white God. Please lay that issue to rest.

Originally Posted by Atabong

I grew up in a sub-Saharan African countryside where our people did not lock anything up yet nothing was ever stolen, there was never even a hint of rape, homosexuality, bestiality and all these other horrible practices brought in by European and Arab imperialists

I do believe every human being is born good, innocent, pure, perfect and free.

Please support the concept of original sin within the scope of reason.

Atabong, in my original post, I asked you to present the historical problems you have with Christianity. What you've presented above is a existential and soteriological problem which isn't my original intent for this thread. We can take that discussion to another thread if you'd like.

Originally Posted by Atabong

I’m sure you’d vouch for me, that I write a lot (much more than you do) and I also provide links to research material and videos that I think best explains what I am talking about. If you have any worries about the authenticity of these videos or feel personally offended, you can ask me to remove them.

Nope, I don't feel personally offended. I just want to hear an argument against Christianity in your own words, not in someone else's words. I wouldn't mind seeing support from quotations made by credible people to support your side (this is very much encouraged), but I wouldn't want this discussion to be a back and forth exchange of youtube videos and links to external articles.

Originally Posted by Atabong

To say, ‘people smatter than us’ sounds to me to be very broad, can you expatiate?

Like I said, I wanted to hear an argument in your own words, an argument that you can defend credibly.

As an example, (a statement which you've posted numerous times) "Scholars and Theologians say that Jesus never existed." I would like to hear why you support this statement, and how well you can defend it against a rebuttal that is posted.

Please note that I'd like the discussion to deal only with the historical authenticity of Christianity. Thanks.

[Realistik Dreamer]

Originally Posted by Ndigila2

Ndigala2 :Atabong, this isn't true, I've always presented you with historical facts rebutting your attacks on Christian history, which you've always dismissed as irrelevant to the thread. So what you've been dismissing, I'd like discussed in this thread.

RD : Whereas I may not be in a position to speak for my brother Atabong I find it rather odd that if you dont "believe in a white God", you still find it useful and time well spent for Black Africans to debate within the confines of white christianism (Vatican encyclopedia-Roman/Latin/White...god)

RD: Even if some scholars claim jesus (as presented in Christian Bibles) never existed is true, the fact remains that Christianism exists and has "historical authenticity". I doubt anybody rational can dispute this.

The issue that Africans ask is very simple:

a) who/why hijacked christian doctrines and state-religioned it?

Romans (not Africans)

b) who brought whitenned out christianism (be meek for heaven after death) to Black Africans after their dark age medieval recoveries? The european slavers.

All else is pretentious pure speculation and it is time for Africans to accept that some of the "expertise & big degrees" we have eg on Christian Theology, European Classical (Greece & Roman greatness) History, European literature is UTTERLY USELESS GUNK to Africa's development.

We must form a brave new/old world of genuine African philosophy that will lead us back to scientific & technical abilities to rebuild Africa.

White jesus, Aristotle, Socrates, Plato and white Allah NEVER WILL. Period.

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by Realistik Dreamer

Whereas I may not be in a position to speak for my brother Atabong I find it rather odd that if you dont "believe in a white God", you still find it useful and time well spent for Black Africans to debate within the confines of white christianism (Vatican encyclopedia-Roman/Latin/White...god)
.

RD, the term Vatican encyclopedia was coined by Atabong, not me. And let it be known that the Vatican owes plenty of it's knowledge to African converts.

Originally Posted by Realistik Dreamer

RD: Even if some scholars claim jesus (as presented in Christian Bibles) never existed is true, the fact remains that Christianism exists and has "historical authenticity". I doubt anybody rational can dispute this.

The issue that Africans ask is very simple:

a) who/why hijacked christian doctrines and state-religioned it?

Romans (not Africans)

b) who brought whitenned out christianism (be meek for heaven after death) to Black Africans after their dark age medieval recoveries? The european slavers.

All else is pretentious pure speculation and it is time for Africans to accept that some of the "expertise & big degrees" we have eg on Christian Theology, European Classical (Greece & Roman greatness) History, European literature is UTTERLY USELESS GUNK to Africa's development.

We must form a brave new/old world of genuine African philosophy that will lead us back to scientific & technical abilities to rebuild Africa.

White jesus, Aristotle, Socrates, Plato and white Allah NEVER WILL. Period.

Please do not derail the thread.

[Talula]

Originally Posted by Atabong

Hi Ndigila2, thanks for the invitation. But I must begin by letting you know that I think you must have misunderstood and misrepresented my views.

I do not believe in the concept of a white God and original sin and I have in numerous instances presented my views as to why I don’t. I grew up in a sub-Saharan African countryside where our people did not lock anything up yet nothing was ever stolen, there was never even a hint of rape, homosexuality, bestiality and all these other horrible practices brought in by European and Arab imperialists
I do believe every human being is born good, innocent, pure, perfect and free.

Very interesting discussion! I find it very naive of someone using the argument " where i grew up things were different so thats the right way or thats how it should be". Atabong good for you to have originated in such a peaceful area.... but reallity of life is different. My great grandmother told me of stories way before her time and it wasn't always 100% peaceful(all this before the europeans and arabs came). She is african! Look at ancient civilizations before christianity....(greek empire for example and african tribal wars and disputes that led to migrations) there were similar like problems like today..maybe not as large scale as now but they were there.

[Realistik Dreamer]

Ndigila2 accusing me of derailing your thread just because we state the obvious is ridiculous.

This is the obvious: Christian theooogy (christianism) with all its white god-ing & son-ing is ridiculous-for Africa.

Speculating, pseudo-intellectualizing and wringing our hands-as Africans about the vatican's tales is ridiculous. THAT THERE IS AFRICA'S DERAILMENT

[Realistik Dreamer]

where i grew up things were different so thats the right way or thats how it should be". Atabong good for you to have originated in such a peaceful area.... but reallity of life is different. My great grandmother told me of stories way before her time and it wasn't always 100% peaceful(all this before the europeans and arabs came). She is african!

I very much doubt that anybody here has said that there ever was perfect harmony in All of Africa before the Europeans & Arabs came in to disrupt and destroy Africa's civilizations with their cooked up religions and slave driven/dependent economic models.

Its really strange how Africans always put Africa on a BIG trial (when filled with doubt about Africa's obvious greatness) but NEVER seem to put this same SCRUTINY on roman white jesus & desert arab Allah.

Amazing!

Look at ancient civilizations before christianity....(greek empire for example and african tribal wars and disputes that led to migrations) there were similar like problems like today..maybe not as large scale as now but they were there.

[/QUOTE]

First off; using the word tribe to describe ancient Africa's wars vs Greek empire wars in the same breath reflects your eurocentric prism/view of things:

If we are going to use the word 'tribe" then let us also ask why the english have been having tribal wars with the Irish (Northern Ireland) filled with blood thirsty violence & brutality unimaginable.

Or lets talk about the "world wars"-a misnomer: because these wars between european tribes which bled millions of people were just that: tribal wars. Period.

Why again I ask. why do we swallow the eurocentric pretensions that their wars have a higher purpose (ideals, nationality, freedom) and philosophy and African nations' wars (not tribes ever) are just savage bloody skirmishes by primitive sub-humans?

Because at the end of the day, war is stupid and is always, always caused by greed & power-seeking.

In Europe. In Asia. In Africa. forget all the intellectual garb they will give it.

So this is the deal Talula:

We are Africans. We reserve the right to define ourselves-Our BLACK GOD, our culture, our technology and how we produce, distribute and consume our products and services i.e our economy.

We must learn to think for ourselves.

Only science and technology is useful from the europeans. We give credit where its due: They stole and continue to steal our science-then shut us down via poverty and installing on us this idea that we can just be miserable and we will go their heaven.

So lets check what the Japanese did: They did not invent the car. No shame in that. But whose car are we driving now? Whose plasma TV (trust Africans!) are we aspiring/borrowing/saving to own now?

Who is lauging all the way to the bank and building his civilization? Mr. Tokyo. Or Shanghai.

You rarely see them debating about the vatican, white jesus or Allah! So there is an inverse ratio here and we Africans are refusing to get it. Because we still believe in white heaven or worse fear whitey's made up hell (see our thread on History of the Devil)

All other "humanities" starting from their white deities to their "great" history (greece/rome/britain/america) their anthropology (you the subject-them the objective observer) their economics "science" (socialism, capitalism) is so FULL OF UTTER LIES and has made Africans helplessly foolish.

Crawlng around unable to think big for Africa.

Dependent on whitey for everything from god to nappies.

Just like a little heroin addicts

And I am talking about many African Phds, Masters', Bachelor holders...to start with.

White education is no guarantee of wisdom

What a great pity for the Motherland

I very much doubt that your grandmother meant that since Africans had wars (was this every where & everyday, year in yr out?) pre-invasion that she was happy that Africa was raped off its peoples & lands-till now?

(now this a derailment-Ndigala2 will not like!)