The Vatican Encyclopedia

[jackofhearts]

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

@JOH
Ad hominem my foot!

(By the way, not all ad hominem answers are fallacies, u know that)

U did ask me to state any positives xtianity has done; I found none. U re the one, infact, disparaging my person as opposed to addressing the fact that I see no single advantage of xtianity.
Yes, PAGANISM without the european negative connotation is just fine.

Lastly, perhaps you should consider a study of African religions before engaging in a discussion of what religion is fit for Africans. U can not talk about what u do not know. A fallacy of ad ignoratia right there.

Bleh. I asked about benefits of Christianity in Africa and abroad; you said it presented nothing "new" to Africa. That was non-responsive. That you're now claiming it offers nothing of value is specious considering the school you attend and the religion you offically ascribe to; unless you're a masochist, which I suppose is possible.

I would think, considering your thread on the problems of Africans, that you would also acknowledge some value in the promotion of the truth in the commandment "Thou shalt not covet" since you ascribed that as a major deterimental effect that you've observed.

Almost any philosophical system has some positives, that you are claiming "none" reveals more of your biases than your critical thinking.

Where did I claim a falsehood concerning any pagan religion above? I didn't even engage in a discussion of such religions; I merely asked what your opinion was for a beneficial worldview for Africa and referenced atheism and paganism as potential examples. My mere mention of paganism seemed cause you to start exhibiting the internet equivalent of facial ticks more rapidly and rabidly than I'd even expect of RD. Now you're claiming paganism is the most beneficial world view, while failing to state a single beneficial effect in support (while naming certain detrimental effects such as belief in "witchcraft" and the like in your other thread). What philosophical system do you believe most effectively ended the slave trade in most of the world?

I've come to expect more reasoned analysis from you, thus my crankiness.

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by Realistik Dreamer

Our job is to jettison this thing completely from Black mind. To destroy it utterly so that Africans can REALLY SEE THEMSELVES AGAIN.

RD, I have no problem with this stance, if that's what you want to do then go ahead. But to accomplish this jettisoning (is that an English word?) through deceitful misrepresentation is not the way to do it because once in a while you'll run into someone who'll see them and attack them.

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

Of course u should, and I believe u have adequate answers to the questions; the evidence to the plunder and looting is here for all to see. The situation Africa is in.

Nafusi, you're taking around 400 years of "Christians behaving badly" (who fyi really weren't Christians because they didn't believe in it anyway) from a tiny Western Europe and then try to say that the prior 1600 years of Christianity in Western and Eastern Europe, Asia Minor, and North Africa were similar to it. Don't you see how you're setting yourself up (whether intentionally or otherwise) to thoroughly miss the mark?

You end up missing on stories of how women Christians from Southern Egypt and Northern Ethiopia went up to eastern europe and taught them personal hygiene. You end up missing out on how people like St Patrick (the man who transformed Ireland) was heavily influenced by an African Christian wondering in the deserts of Egypt.

Now if you claim that the other 1600 years of Christianity don't matter in your 'diagnosis,' you'll end up diagnosing the wrong disease. The problem wasn't with Christianity, the problem was with the western european.

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

Can u give any proof that looting and plundering was not the sole purpose of spreading the mediterrenean folklore?

I could, but you've already told me that you don't pay attention to anything prior to 14th century.

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

But most importantly, these stories were written by the hunter, have u taken time to find the hunted's story?

Yes I have, the best one so far is Celsus' polemic against the Christians. (You're use of the terms 'hunter' and 'hunted' are loaded.) And it's interesting you ask this question, when you have declared that you don't even care.

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

Asking me to BELIEVE absurdity because books say so....errr..am lost or to employ a third line or alternative understanding is refusing to consider ur environment, immeadiate environment.

Nafusi, I've never asked you to convert. If I have, quote me and I'll take this statement back. All I've ever done is answer you're questions. I even remember telling you that I don't believe in preaching by word of mouth as an effective means, especially in a society that has had enough of hearing 'Jesus' all the time.

This thread was addressed to those who have talked about Christian history. You have reiterated that you don't care, and now you want others to adopt this don't-care attitude. So ironically, you're the one doing the 'evangelism.'

Originally Posted by jackofhearts

Nd, as I'm sure you perceive, I'm much more ecumenical than you, believing that many "branches" of the faith have had an overall favorable impact on civilization, whether Orthodox, Roman Catholic or Protestant (while not turning a blind eye to injustices along the way).

Me too.

Originally Posted by jackofhearts

How do you view that great African Augustine (of Hippo, not the poster here, lol)? He almost inarguably is the most influential theologian in western Christianity, both among Roman Catholics and Protestants.

And he is one person whom the East loves to attack . Personally, I think he's okay, just his ideas and writings been taken out-of-context by susbequent generations.

[A.M Nafusi]

Am a humble student of common sense, not philosophy. I couldn't even define the word, ma bad. And this aint an excuse either.

@JOH
Nope! Am a realist too. I know some things can be effected and some can not.It does not mean am unaware of where the truth lies, a truth that can be relative to the opponent.
What was rabid about the post? But what positives? Is society rid of covetting or are our jails free of murderers? Are we not looking out for rapists and paedophiles in the church? (And I support catholics against greedy people out to fleece them with frivolous law suits)

Here is something I found funny about a certain lawsuit in NJ. A teacher shows elementary kids a documentary on America's past. It is violent. A kid on arriving home asks his parents why his ancestors were so bad? The parents are not amused and a law suit is born. Such material has been deemed unfit in that school district and excluded out of the syllabi; does that mean the material is wrong or inappropriate? If the later answer is affirmed, then innapropriate to whom? I will extrapolate this line of reasoning on 'why racism will not end' thread.

Maybe xtianity did play a role in civilization (what civilization? probably modernization should be the right word) but it's time is up as science continues to show it's inconsistencies.

@Ndigila2
Will I be right to say that in deciding to follow xtianity u excluded an evaluation of African religions?
A yes answer will put my disagreements with u to rest, for my point of issue is what its interpretation & effects are, while u seek to validate it historically.

I happened during the 400 years of behaving badly, so both of u must excuse my desire to see an end to it. But then, what proof do we have that it will get better, perhaps it has hit its civilization niverna. Look at the growing dissatisfaction?

Explain how the terms 'hunted' and 'hunter' are loaded.

My sentiments of not caring are not meant to poison the well, I suffer mental dettachment the minute such material comes in my view. I did try in highschool but never made it past the prophets

WHAT EXACTLY IS CIVILIZATION?

And plis, no thinking too much...am going to see the fireworks! 4th of July...GOD BLESS AMERICA.

Yeah! am not about to hit the hand that feeds me...lol.

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

@Ndigila2
Will I be right to say that in deciding to follow xtianity u excluded an evaluation of African religions?
A yes answer will put my disagreements with u to rest, for my point of issue is what its interpretation & effects are, while u seek to validate it historically.

Will an answer of N/A suffice? It begs the question, how much of pre-colonial Africa, outside Egypt and Ethiopia do we know?

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

I happened during the 400 years of behaving badly, so both of u must excuse my desire to see an end to it. But then, what proof do we have that it will get better, perhaps it has hit its civilization niverna. Look at the growing dissatisfaction?

Nafusi, if you focus on one shred of evidence instead of the whole picture, you risk coming to the wrong conclusion. It's like doctors ignoring all but one symptom in a differential diagnosis.

Justinian, a Byzantine Emperor in the 6th century is said to have founded the Diocese of Selefkia in Central Africa. This means that in the 500s there were enough Christians in Central Africa for them to achieve self-governing status. So did the looting and plundering of Central Africa begin in the 500s, or did it begin with King Leopold? Christianity has been in Ethiopia since the 1st century, yet Baptist missionaries from the west still treat them as Pagans and try to impose their version on them. So who's to blame? Their attitude, or what they profess?

The growing dissatisfaction with Christianity isn't unique to Africa, it's been rejected by Europe and America (the difference being America hasn't admitted it yet).

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

My sentiments of not caring are not meant to poison the well, I suffer mental dettachment the minute such material comes in my view.

Well then, perhaps you should cease diverting pretty much most of the debates on this forum to this line of discussion.

[Atabong]

Originally Posted by Ndigila2

Atabong, I don't believe in a white God. Please lay that issue to rest.

Please note that I'd like the discussion to deal only with the historical authenticity of Christianity. Thanks.

Before I respond to your other queries, I will like you to state very clearly, your position on

Original sin, and
To you what does the word GOD mean?

These are the corner stones of Christianity which I reject as falsehood. Please address this before we proceed.

My position is that every child is born good, innocent, pure and perfect.

[A.M Nafusi]

[QUOTE=Ndigila2;843563]Will an answer of N/A suffice? It begs the question, how much of pre-colonial Africa, outside Egypt and Ethiopia do we know?
[/QUOTE

Aha! Should have pre-empted that; I did see u hit back with that one. You choose not to know. Who says the written word is the only means of knowing? I know enough (Kenyan, actually Luhya) to make me doubt the authenticity of xtianity. There is a reason the likes of Rome still want Africa in an intellectual slumber. Poverty is a big vehicle. If Africans ever get a chance to stop and think about it...xtianity has no future. And I keep going back to that line of reasoning because u are unable to address the dilemma of the masses incapable of experiencing whatever you have. Of course u have admitted you know not. Which leads me to wonder? Don't u think that is reasonable doubt, doubt enough to dent xtian authenticity. The doctor/medical analogy is not appropriate here because doctors theorize their findings; can we do the same for the historical info we have? Matter of fact, it is so inconsistent we do not know when some scrolls were written, found or by whom.

[Atabong]

Originally Posted by Talula

Very interesting discussion! I find it very naive of someone using the argument " where i grew up things were different so thats the right way or thats how it should be". Atabong good for you to have originated in such a peaceful area.... but reallity of life is different. My great grandmother told me of stories way before her time and it wasn't always 100% peaceful(all this before the europeans and arabs came). She is african! Look at ancient civilizations before christianity....(greek empire for example and african tribal wars and disputes that led to migrations) there were similar like problems like today..maybe not as large scale as now but they were there.

Talula

I Use personal experiences (Where I grew up and not some theological speculation by some so called great men) which are true and factual and don’t expect it to apply to every one. I have never stated that Ancient Africa was the city of God.You use the word 'naive' because your mind has been conditioned to see nothing but a warring Africa and you think what is true for you must also be true of everyone else.

I do not believe in ORIGINAL SIN because it is illogical, unreasonable, and utterly senseless. Besides, It is purely a man made tool coined by one culture to subjugate another.

You can state that you support the idea of Original sin because you are the descendant of Cannibals and I will not dispute that, but read a post well before responding and if you have nothing to say remain silent and no one will know you don’t know.

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

Aha! Should have pre-empted that; I did see u hit back with that one.

So you take one sentence in my previous post and ignore the rest? You're trying really hard to trap me, aren't you.

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

You choose not to know.

Says who?

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

Who says the written word is the only means of knowing?

And who said that the written word is the only means I relied on, Miss presumptuous Nafusi ?

I have a document saved on my computer, dealing with research done by a couple of my cousins with regards to religious practices in my family going back to the early 1800s. It does suggest some sort of duality similar to what RD has been saying. But then again, this contradicts the research done by these people, which suggests some sort of Deism, yet the afterlife concept of Warumunyi is quite similar to the Jewish concept of Sheol, which would line up with some research one of my great uncles did who says that our people are the descendants of the Biblical Job, (which would then mean that I'm closer to home than you originally thought).

Yet others would claim a link to an ancient Ku****ic empire through Shungwaya, which would explain why at some point our peeps, together with the others in that area referred to themselves as Washiranzi. (And if this is the case, that's bad news for RD, because it would mean that Zoroaster picked up the concept of the devil from us. )

The rest are either too busy worshipping a white Jesus and saying that our ancient practices are demonic, or simply don't care and would rather yell 'Arsenal damu' and worship a white Andrei Asharvin.

Either way, the results remain inconclusive, I didn't simply choose not to know like you originally assumed. Since you're very keen, you're welcome to share your opinion, but then again yours would just be one in a variety of competing theories.

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

I know enough (Kenyan, actually Luhya) to make me doubt the authenticity of xtianity.

This is a non-sequitur. Knowing about Luhya spirituality should not make any impact on the authenticity of Christianity. (Unless the Luhya's are similar to the Waislamus ). Of course, being part of the 2nd or 3rd largest ethnic group in Kenya, you have a lot to people to work with. Making up only less than 1% of Kenya's population, and being absorbed by the people of the 'Nine towns' at a very rapid rate, I don't have that luxury.

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

There is a reason the likes of Rome still want Africa in an intellectual slumber. Poverty is a big vehicle.

One word: Capitalism. In a capitalistic world, especially in a global economy (where it's not just small businesses but whole nations competing), there has to be poor people.

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

If Africans ever get a chance to stop and think about it...xtianity has no future.

Of course, this implies that I didn't stop and think about it.

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

And I keep going back to that line of reasoning because u are unable to address the dilemma of the masses incapable of experiencing whatever you have.

My stand is simple, Truth is something that is demonstrated, not presented in theoretical form.

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

Of course u have admitted you know not.

Ati?

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

Which leads me to wonder? Don't u think that is reasonable doubt, doubt enough to dent xtian authenticity.

Doubt is reasonable, but doubt doesn't lead one to constantly question someone else because they hold dearly to what you have doubts about. In an online discussion, it's a chance to reason together. And also, just because you doubt something doesn't mean that thing loses it's authenticity.

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by Atabong

Before I respond to your other queries, I will like you to state very clearly, your position on

Original sin, and
To you what does the word GOD mean?

These are the corner stones of Christianity which I reject as falsehood. Please address this before we proceed.

Since this thread has been thoroughly derailed, I might as well dive in.

In another thread, I asked you which version of original sin you reject because there's very many different understandings. Perhaps you could enlighten me on which one you reject.

Originally Posted by Atabong

My position is that every child is born good, innocent, pure and perfect.

Mine too, except for the perfect part. If a child was born perfect, there'd be no room for improvement. I'd say a child is born with the potential to be perfect. And while we're on this topic, let me ask you, by what standard do you determine what perfect is?

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

The doctor/medical analogy is not appropriate here because doctors theorize their findings; can we do the same for the historical info we have? Matter of fact, it is so inconsistent we do not know when some scrolls were written, found or by whom.

I wanted to address this in a separate post.

With one breath you say that you don't care about validating history, and with another breath you confidently say that the historical info is inconsistent. This flip-flopping needs to stop if we are to have a fair discussion.

Nafusi, I don't do this for a living. You've literally Spanish inquisitioned me with a barrage of "Have you done ...?" and "What about...?" form of questions, which shows that you're trying to find a loophole with which you can exploit.

You have no issues saying that you don't care about Christian history, but when you read into my words that I supposedly didn't do an analysis on African religions, I could literally see your eyes light up through your words. You're subjecting me to a standard which is much higher than what you have lived up to.

Anyway, nimeandika sana, please let us be reasonable.