The Vatican Encyclopedia

[Talula]

Originally Posted by Realistik Dreamer

I very much doubt that anybody here has said that there ever was perfect harmony in All of Africa before the Europeans & Arabs came in to disrupt and destroy Africa's civilizations with their cooked up religions and slave driven/dependent economic models.

Its really strange how Africans always put Africa on a BIG trial (when filled with doubt about Africa's obvious greatness) but NEVER seem to put this same SCRUTINY on roman white jesus & desert arab Allah.

Amazing!

First off; using the word tribe to describe ancient Africa's wars vs Greek empire wars in the same breath reflects your eurocentric prism/view of things:

If we are going to use the word 'tribe" then let us also ask why the english have been having tribal wars with the Irish (Northern Ireland) filled with blood thirsty violence & brutality unimaginable.

Or lets talk about the "world wars"-a misnomer: because these wars between european tribes which bled millions of people were just that: tribal wars. Period.

Why again I ask. why do we swallow the eurocentric pretensions that their wars have a higher purpose (ideals, nationality, freedom) and philosophy and African nations' wars (not tribes ever) are just savage bloody skirmishes by primitive sub-humans?

Because at the end of the day, war is stupid and is always, always caused by greed & power-seeking.

In Europe. In Asia. In Africa. forget all the intellectual garb they will give it.

So this is the deal Talula:

We are Africans. We reserve the right to define ourselves-Our BLACK GOD, our culture, our technology and how we produce, distribute and consume our products and services i.e our economy.

We must learn to think for ourselves.

Only science and technology is useful from the europeans. We give credit where its due: They stole and continue to steal our science-then shut us down via poverty and installing on us this idea that we can just be miserable and we will go their heaven.

So lets check what the Japanese did: They did not invent the car. No shame in that. But whose car are we driving now? Whose plasma TV (trust Africans!) are we aspiring/borrowing/saving to own now?

Who is lauging all the way to the bank and building his civilization? Mr. Tokyo. Or Shanghai.

You rarely see them debating about the vatican, white jesus or Allah! So there is an inverse ratio here and we Africans are refusing to get it. Because we still believe in white heaven or worse fear whitey's made up hell (see our thread on History of the Devil)

All other "humanities" starting from their white deities to their "great" history (greece/rome/britain/america) their anthropology (you the subject-them the objective observer) their economics "science" (socialism, capitalism) is so FULL OF UTTER LIES and has made Africans helplessly foolish.

Crawlng around unable to think big for Africa.

Dependent on whitey for everything from god to nappies.

Just like a little heroin addicts

And I am talking about many African Phds, Masters', Bachelor holders...to start with.

White education is no guarantee of wisdom

What a great pity for the Motherland

I very much doubt that your grandmother meant that since Africans had wars (was this every where & everyday, year in yr out?) pre-invasion that she was happy that Africa was raped off its peoples & lands-till now?

(now this a derailment-Ndigala2 will not like!)[/QUOTE]


Hmm this is deep my friend! I feel a certain anger agains't white skin here! Anyways my bad i meant ancient greek tribes!!!!!

I don't know about the rest of "africans"(abit naive to generalise like this but...)I believe in a colourless God....as in to me he aint black nor white and the people i worship with who are white dont believe in a white God either. I am proud to be african and know that black white red or blue, we are all the same and thats how the God I worship views it too.

My statements were in reply to this statement from Atabong...
"I grew up in a sub-Saharan African countryside where our people did not lock anything up yet nothing was ever stolen, there was never even a hint of rape, homosexuality, bestiality and all these other horrible practices brought in by European and Arab imperialists

I do believe every human being is born good, innocent, pure, perfect and free."

I might have misunderstood him but i thought he meant before the arabs and europeans ventured into africa there was no homosexuality, rape and stealing.....which is not true...there was!!! Lets take responsibility and stop blaming the white man for every negative trait in us! Whether you believe in a God or not, we are all imperfect!!!! White or black! and its no ones elses fault... Thats just how we are!

Ohh and by your statement below I am assuming you are well accustomed with the japanese culture and forums that you know they don't debate about the vatican and a white God!
"So lets check what the Japanese did: They did not invent the car. No shame in that. But whose car are we driving now? Whose plasma TV (trust Africans!) are we aspiring/borrowing/saving to own now?

Who is lauging all the way to the bank and building his civilization? Mr. Tokyo. Or Shanghai.

You rarely see them debating about the vatican, white jesus or Allah! So there is an inverse ratio here and we Africans are refusing to get it. Because we still believe in white heaven or worse fear whitey's made up hell (see our thread on History of the Devil)"

[A.M Nafusi]

Originally Posted by Ndigila2

I've finally given in
I'm more interested in how well you defend the position you take

I read ur post before MASHADA was MIA, and returned to find Atabong had posted my mind.

The same thoughts I had, but perhaps your elucidation will help:

According to you, how d'u understand Atabong's position to be?

Once that is addressed, then it will be easier to respond (although I'd love for u to step our of the xtian coccoon and address the other biases. The minute u start on 14th century, I get lost. Can we address the issue of misguided masses)
I closely read urs, RD's and Atabong's posts on xtianity. And I see 3 people with very different views.

U my brother have embraced xtianity (commendable), and do defend the cult. The other two are uneasy with it: one from both it's historical and after effects, the other from its after results.

My understanding of ur point is that Atabong disagrees with ur historical explanations of christianity.
The way I get his posts, history is not necessarily the issue.
RD would be the one to disagree with ur sentiments, in addition to his disagreement to the effects.

Atabong seems to be more against the effect of religion-all infact.

Again, I may be misunderstanding what u mean! I stand correction.

**As for me, I really do no care. God may be real or not, Jesus may have come or not: But whatever it is that we are being taught has nothing to do with it. And it harms people, that is my issue.

[Ndigila2]

Nafusi, I'll keep things short.

You claim that history is hardly an issue. I say history has everything to do with it. Here's why:

We all share a common point, that Europeans used their religion and culture to divide and conquer.

After this point, we hit a brick wall. You ask for my position, and I've said it numerous times. Europeans took a religion they didn't believe in (partly because of how the Renaissance affected it), and misused it. The African inheritors learned not only the already distorted religion, but also the hypocritical nature of their preachers.

Now if someone comes and says, Christianity was a hoax in the first place, invented by Paul or Constantine, and comes to the conclusion that the sole of Christianity is looting and plundering, shouldn't I question this pre-supposition?

[jackofhearts]

A.M, I'm confused by your post. You ask Nd to elucidate on Ata's thoughts but he already did so, point by point. Without greater clarification from you, what exactly are you asking of him?

I also am unclear as to what you think will replace Christianity as a pervasive Afrian world view that will cause less harm to people. Atheism? Paganism? Why do you think it will cause less harm?

You are fond of asking Christians to evaluate their perceived detrimental effects of Christianity, I would like you to turn that inquiry on yourself and evaluate whether you believe there have been any benefits of Christianity in Africa and abroad.

Talula, if war in general is "stupid" how should a people respond against an aggressor? Are you a pacifist? Or are you saying that somewhere within every conflict there is stupidity at its core but sometimes defending against aggression is necessary? (Edit: I see now I may have misunderstood who said what, the above quotes are kinda jacked up).

Nd, as I'm sure you perceive, I'm much more ecumenical than you, believing that many "branches" of the faith have had an overall favorable impact on civilization, whether Orthodox, Roman Catholic or Protestant (while not turning a blind eye to injustices along the way). How do you view that great African Augustine (of Hippo, not the poster here, lol)? He almost inarguably is the most influential theologian in western Christianity, both among Roman Catholics and Protestants.

[Realistik Dreamer]

Hmm this is deep my friend! I feel a certain anger agains't white skin here! Anyways my bad i meant ancient greek tribes!!!!!

Good! This is an important correction (the ancient greek tribes thing). Words create & destroy-even the christian bible states that God created the universe by dint of speech.Africans are done in via evil speech from foreigners and within....

I have no anger against "white skin" per se.

What we loathe to a tee is the direct relationship between white skin and wealth/easy life at Black skins' expense.

But of course christianism (whitey hoax) asks us to love our enemies as we shalt be rewarded in white heaven!

This is pure & unadulterated hogwash.

Is it any wonder that this obviously illogical and anti-human instinct teaching backfires all the time manifested in Africans self-hating and butchering/destroying their own: MISPLACED ANGER & FRUSTRATIONS?

I don't know about the rest of "africans"(abit naive to generalise like this but...)I believe in a colourless God

....

For many Africans Christans & Moslems who claim "universal love now", this is a lie. Or a little wishful thought.

Politically and socially the invaders/bringers of these slave doctrines have now "revised" their rhetoric: God hath no color bla bla bla. It suits them just fine as they still control our resources (raw, refined/manufuctered and human) and the markets (sell us flowers-we sell you machinery).

This is unacceptable.

Only when there is equal opportunity in the world market place of ideas (culture-starting with God) and material (no WTO and Gunboat/satelitte diplopmacy tricks can you as an African state with all love (a really misused word from medieval europe) that GOD IS COLORLESS.

Lets be honest as Africans and learn to think things through.

as in to me he aint black nor white and the people i worship with who are white dont believe in a white God either.

Your white "liberal" buddies can of course afford to lay you this god is colourless rhetoric: They are comfortable now and can just about say anything.

But I dare you to ask them to demand that their governments return all the billions of dollars stolen by corrupt African leaders* banked in their countries (and hence sustaining/building their countries) just to start with. I will not even mention reparations for slavery (you laugh?) or colonialism. Then you will see just how (lately?)colorless your christian deity is with your liberal one love white pals.

*There is no way the west can agree to safe house stolen cash unless they get concessions from African leaders eg unfair mining rights like in Nigeria (Ogoni land) or Gabon (Omar Bongo tin pot dictator & Francophile poodle)

I am proud to be african and know that black white red or blue, we are all the same and thats how the God I worship views it too

.
I agree with you here. Apparently some people who control how things trade on this planet dont. Thats why Africans are desparately poor. Unecessary so.

This makes your statement above ring a mite hollow unless Africans do something like cleaning our brains off gunk told to us by slavers. We cant run away from this mission.

Of course they will label you a hate-filled being. But who really is hating?

My statements were in reply to this statement from Atabong...
"I grew up in a sub-Saharan African countryside where our people did not lock anything up yet nothing was ever stolen, there was never even a hint of rape, homosexuality, bestiality and all these other horrible practices brought in by European and Arab imperialists

I repeat-let us acquire a sense of proportion when talking about the ills of Africa prior to the hordes of nomads from the east and barbarians from the north (the west) comming down here with their tall tales of white deities.

The issue is always what values did they really teach us? Read your history carefully. And chronologically

There is no such thing as pure objectivity in history.Even hard sciences have occassionally been struck with "emotion" vs objectivity!

So careful whose objectives you are adhering to as you absorb the european or arab view of history. His story.

I do believe every human being is born good, innocent, pure, perfect and free."

True. The key word here is BORN GOOD.

We live in a world affected not by sweetcherubic pure babies running things but grown mostly men doing that.

Formed by their ideas of god (justifications & rationalizations)and/or sciences (social ideas-philosophy/history/economics etc)

Attitudes gathered over time is what affects us. Thank God for babies though-they remind us that perhaps there can be a world of pure innocence.

But let Africans have access to food, shelter, clothing first.

Right?

I might have misunderstood him but i thought he meant before the arabs and europeans ventured into africa there was no homosexuality, rape and stealing.....which is not true...there was!!!

as I alluded earlier-this is irrelevant to what Atabong is saying.

But just to help you a little-in ancient times even the little greeks saw "Ethiopia* as the seat of the gods", "the land of the just" Read Homer (the first western written thing in history-a tale that reflects the violence and barbarity of ancient Greece-mother of "western civilization')

Also read Heroditus-He truly admired Ethiopia this Greek fella (father of >Western< History)
*Ethiopia means burnt face/black and in ancient times meant the whole of Africa-not the contemporary country of this name.

So in a nutshell your indictment of Africa's rape & stealing is insignificant really.

And homosexuality was totally unacceptable and mostly unheard of!

This is a fact so dont let the "gay" western movement just ride your mind just like that. Of course they will say anything to make africans go down low like depraved they are!

Now look carefully at Greek & Roman History and you will see these european men (the Platos) saw women as even unworthy of being their lovers! No jive!

Ever heard of such tat & nionsense in Africa's past?

Homosexuality was widely accepted in Greece & Rome (seat of western/white civilization) and still is.

And Africans being the fools that we are are now accepting this obvious depravity because it is the "modern, liberal,civilized" thing to do.

Lets take responsibility and stop blaming the white man for every negative trait in us!

Agreed.

Whether you believe in a God or not, we are all imperfect!!!! White or black! and its no ones elses fault... Thats just how we are!

This is irrelevant. The issue is that our poverty as African is beyond reasonable bounds (taking into consideration our foibles as human beings that you state eloquently above)

There is something more here: 40+ yrs after "independence" and 140+ yrs after end of slavery and Black people are still unbearably poor. Because of our stupidity and the oppressive systems of our slavers.

Colonialism? This was slavery. Right?

[

COLOR="Red"]Ohh and by your statement below I am assuming you are well accustomed with the japanese culture and forums that you know they don't debate about the vatican and a white God![/COLOR]

Sarcasm is not fitting in well here. I said this to make a point and I want to believe you are intelligent enough to have grasped it: African who have some schooling waste too much time debating platonic and judeo-christian-islamo bosh and fairy tales.

The Japanese/chinese and Indians figure out how the universe actually works: is it plasma cosmology or big bang?

How to extract, manipulate/refine/manufacture from raw materials.....

How to improve yields of foof crops, land managemnt....to feed, clothe & hse their people.

Thats what we have to do and via the Power and Grace of BLACK GOD we must do it or forever remain intellectual charlattans and vagabonds for hire and fire. Period.

[Realistik Dreamer]

[

QUOTE=Ndigila2;843170]Nafusi, I'll keep things short.

You claim that history is hardly an issue. I say history has everything to do with it. Here's why:

We all share a common point, that Europeans used their religion and culture to divide and conquer.

I agree completly. Factual history from point

(a) -humanity begins in Africa-Kenya over 200K yrs ago as BLACK PEOPLE to point

(b) -all races come from Africans. So everyone is really an African.

to (Z) -why are the original race of humanity poorest and worshiping johny-come-lately little white deities now?

After this point, we hit a brick wall. You ask for my position, and I've said it numerous times. Europeans took a religion they didn't believe in (partly because of how the Renaissance affected it), and misused it. The African inheritors learned not only the already distorted religion, but also the hypocritical nature of their preachers

.

This so incisive an analysis. I wish all Africans could just hear it once.......

Now if someone comes and says, Christianity was a hoax in the first place, invented by Paul or Constantine, and comes to the conclusion that the sole of Christianity is looting and plundering, shouldn't I question this pre-supposition?

[/QUOTE]

Ndigila2, now I have finally grasped your beef. Perhaps this is why I lose patience because my take is who cares if Christianity can be salvaged? Why should I salvage something that has enslaved I and I mind and rendered I and I incapable of self-defence?

Our job is to jettison this thing completely from Black mind. To destroy it utterly so that Africans can REALLY SEE THEMSELVES AGAIN.

Can you dig that?

We are not littleGreeks. Romans. Anglo-Saxons or Desert Arabs.

WE ARE AFRICANS!


Peace

[Realistik Dreamer]

I also am unclear as to what you think will replace Christianity as a pervasive Afrian world view that will cause less harm to people. Atheism? [B]Paganism?[/B] Why do you think it will cause less harm?

This is a totally europeanized outlook. The idea that just because somebody is not a christian he is a pagan. Its funny how most dictionaries come together to state that non christians/judaic/muhammedans are pagans. All three being slave doctrines.

Amazing!

Stop being a woefully frightenned little African.

We will prosper very much without christianism & muhammedanism thank you very much.

How? By adhering to African moral values: Yes. Truth, Justice, Righteousness. Maat.

Few christians have ever followed these.

Thats why the first slave boat that landed with kidnapped Africans in America was called Jesus.Fact

Thats why there is so much misery in Africa and the world in general: People believe great white god will come from the sky one fine day in cosmic fury to put things to put to rights the wrongs on the planet.

I am sure you will agree that Africa needs to quickly discard such medieval balderdash. Right?

You are fond of asking Christians to evaluate their perceived detrimental effects of Christianity, I would like you to turn that inquiry on yourself and evaluate whether you believe there have been any benefits of Christianity in Africa and abroad

.

Tell us the benefits. Please.Do.

Talula, if war in general is "stupid" how should a people respond against an aggressor? Are you a pacifist? Or are you saying that somewhere within every conflict there is stupidity at its core but sometimes defending against aggression is necessary? (Edit: I see now I may have misunderstood who said what, the above quotes are kinda jacked up).

I am the one who said war is stupid. Personally I love peace and hate to see the fighting that goes on all over the place just because of a few egos. So war is stupid.Iraq, Afganistan, Northern Ireland.....etc.

However we Africans have refused to channel our rages properly and are open to abuse & manipulations..and stupid wars.


Having said that (to your pacifist query) I have always sneered at the christianism's idea (incidentally very different from the old testament wild war-like god eye 4 eyeing & tooth 4 toothing FYI) of you slap my face and I give you the other cheek......

The key for Africans is to identify their real enemies....

How do you view that great African Augustine (of Hippo, not the poster here, lol)? He almost inarguably is the most influential theologian in western Christianity, both among Roman Catholics and Protestants.

[/QUOTE]

Indeed he is this little African thinker! He is the one who spewed idea of the virtues of suffering on the planet to achieve some sort of carthasis against "original sin".

No wonder at least subconciously (which is worse) Africans accept the way things are as a white god-ordained (or fight vs satan) thing.

Instead of analysing reality properly.

He is the one who fortified for the medieval kings of europe & power mad bishoprics the idea of the devil-saying things like women could be seduced by some devil at night (incubus?) an men by some female demons......in their sleep. So people needed to be chastising (flogging and suffering) themselves to be "pure"

No wonder Africans are so filled with fear of non existent european devil more than they actually believe in white god!

Astounding!

You better read Augustine again and tell us what is so great about this guy from Hippo.


For Africa's development. Renaissance.

Quit playing.

[A.M Nafusi]

Originally Posted by Ndigila2

After this point, we hit a brick wall. You ask for my position, and I've said it numerous times. Europeans took a religion they didn't believe in (partly because of how the Renaissance affected it), and misused it. The African inheritors learned not only the already distorted religion, but also the hypocritical nature of their preachers.

Now if someone comes and says, Christianity was a hoax in the first place, invented by Paul or Constantine, and comes to the conclusion that the sole of Christianity is looting and plundering, shouldn't I question this pre-supposition?

Of course u should, and I believe u have adequate answers to the questions; the evidence to the plunder and looting is here for all to see. The situation Africa is in.

Xtianity may not have played a direct role (or maybe it did: they all justified slavery). The modus operandi of xtianity was/has always been via another party.

However, the big point is? Can u give any proof that looting and plundering was not the sole purpose of spreading the mediterrenean folklore? Listing historical happenings, whose proof of existence is neither here nor there does not cut it. But most importantly, these stories were written by the hunter, have u taken time to find the hunted's story?

Asking me to BELIEVE absurdity because books say so....errr..am lost or to employ a third line or alternative understanding is refusing to consider ur environment, immeadiate environment.


@JOH
NO. Xtianity did not do anything new that Africans were not doing. The African had a sense of right or wrong too, matter of fact, xtianity introduced discrimination.

Ur take on paganism VS. Xtianity embodies the colonialist's line of thinking. His notion of religion is right, while the African's is wrong. Just because xtianity was aided by the gun does not make it any more legit than the small cults in rural Kenya that can produce several miracles. Surely size shud not be the parameter that tips the scale; xtianity as a cult has more followers.

A second analogy is the case of misguided Kenyans studying how to play a violin (more popular than orutu), an instrument that belongs to an equally backward culture, made popular by the gun.

Xtianity is strangling Africa today because they want the resources; period.

A leopard never changes its spots, even if it gets rained on.

[jackofhearts]

Originally Posted by A.M Nafusi

@JOH
NO. Xtianity did not do anything new that Africans were not doing. The African had a sense of right or wrong too, matter of fact, xtianity introduced discrimination.

Ur take on paganism VS. Xtianity embodies the colonialist's line of thinking. His notion of religion is right, while the African's is wrong. Just because xtianity was aided by the gun does not make it any more legit than the small cults in rural Kenya that can produce several miracles. Surely size shud not be the parameter that tips the scale; xtianity as a cult has more followers.

A second analogy is the case of misguided Kenyans studying how to play a violin (more popular than orutu), an instrument that belongs to an equally backward culture, made popular by the gun.

Xtianity is strangling Africa today because they want the resources; period.

A leopard never changes its spots, even if it gets rained on.

You didn't answer a single one of my questions. Reading is essential.

The rest of your post was a wad of ad hominem, conclusory garbage.

Period. :-P

[A.M Nafusi]

@JOH
Ad hominem my foot!

(By the way, not all ad hominem answers are fallacies, u know that)

U did ask me to state any positives xtianity has done; I found none. U re the one, infact, disparaging my person as opposed to addressing the fact that I see no single advantage of xtianity.
Yes, PAGANISM without the european negative connotation is just fine.

Lastly, perhaps you should consider a study of African religions before engaging in a discussion of what religion is fit for Africans. U can not talk about what u do not know. A fallacy of ad ignoratia right there.