[KEMINOKANA]

lol MUK, you know, I like how Okiedokes speaks with alot of authority about men like she's a man herself and holds the views she's referring to. ama ni shemale?

I'm quite confused but like you, I think this lady is very confused and has lots of anger towards men.....or she is very young.

To start being objective, it is the clinton feminists that began tearing into Michelle Obama. Secondly, any democratic spouse will always be targeted by wingnuts not because of sexism but they thrive in demonization of opponents be it Al Gore and the pathological liar smear, John Kerry and swift boat. I reckon Okiedokes should stay away from politics if she cant grasp these basics unless her brain is stuck on "bias".

Having said that, submissive is what it is: submissive. I will speak from experience. It is extremely hard for two cocks to roam in the same cage. They will fight eachother to death. Men and women were created differently. Some extremely aggressive, some extremely passive. All I can say is that if a woman is extremely aggressive, she needs a passive dude for their to be peace in the house and vice versa. To be honest, I have never seen a family run single handedly by a woman go anywhere. Thisis different for single paro families bcoz the women learn to be mom and dad at the same time.

In life, and am not even gon try to get into gender issues. But the book of proverbs lays it bare on how to coexist with people. Anyone who follows some of the teachings wont even wanna know what constitutes submissiveness.

So lets use Michelle Obama as an example coz we can see some people riding on her coattails the wrong way. Okiedokes the other day was throwing a fit ati a woman quit jobo to stay home....did michelle not quit her 300k job to stay home and take care of kids so hubby can run for prezzo? As an example of submissiveness, she had reservations about him running for prezo. Eventually she gave way. Not so for Collin Powell's wife who threatened to divorce him if he ran. Another example of her submissiveness? She picks up his socks while reminding he needs to learn to put them away. LOL I swear the likes of Okiedokes woulda run to mashada asking how to ditch their hubby who cant put his socks away. I mean come on, how often have we seen petty topics from these girls up here about their men? But they see a woman who has clearly sacrificed her ambitions on behalf of hubby's and they want to attach all sorts of labels on her. Yes she's strong and assertive, but she also seems to know her place as a wife in the marriage.

[okiedokes]

! MUK and Kemi...think what the f*ck y'all want. Truth is I don't give a sh*t about y'all mofos up in this joint.
Like i said there is no modern part in african context when it comes to being submissive as concerns a woman's role in a man's life. Y'all know it and your mamas experienced it too and probably you do that to your girlfriends and wives. Even your responses to mo-uk's thread on "woman's place" is evidence of how narrow minded you are.
That is one reason why there still isn't a solution b/c knuckle heads like you fail to look beyond your f*cking egos. Thank goodness i won't be stuck with any of yo sorry a.sses up in here.

Kemi...the other day Michelle also said, "I will always be a working mother". So if by working you understood she will stay home forever then we really need to revise our dictionary. MAVI! Your wife/gf will never be Michelle, so you might as well come to grips with that too.

[KEMINOKANA]

Originally Posted by okiedokes

! MUK and Kemi...think what the f*ck y'all want. Truth is I don't give a sh*t about y'all mofos up in this joint.
Like i said there is no modern part in african context when it comes to being submissive as concerns a woman's role in a man's life. Y'all know it and your mamas experienced it too and probably you do that to your girlfriends and wives. Even your responses to mo-uk's thread on "woman's place" is evidence of how narrow minded you are.
That is one reason why there still isn't a solution b/c knuckle heads like you fail to look beyond your f*cking egos. Thank goodness i won't be stuck with any of yo sorry a.sses up in here.

Kemi...the other day Michelle also said, "I will always be a working mother". So if by working you understood she will stay home forever then we really need to revise our dictionary. MAVI! Your wife/gf will never be Michelle, so you might as well come to grips with that too.

At least now we can ascertain that it is not confusion but childishness and anger issues.

[okiedokes]

Originally Posted by KEMINOKANA

At least now we can ascertain that it is not confusion but childishness and anger issues.

TRASH!!! NEXT!!! Don't remember when you qualified as a therapist or psychologist!!! MAVI!!!

[kenyansenorita]

Originally Posted by okiedokes

TRASH!!! NEXT!!! Don't remember when you qualified as a therapist or psychologist!!! MAVI!!!

LMAO....

[al-zalzalah]

Originally Posted by okiedokes

Girl, as long as that word "submissive" is used to refer to a woman's role most men will never conform to the modern. I don't even think african cultures have adopted the modern concept.

i disagree with you, okiedokes.
there is such a thing as modern african culture. it is the one that exists now. modern just means it is smthg existing in recent times.

kids submit to their parents. employees to their bosses. husbands and wives to each other. everybody submits to somebody else's will at some point. the conflict happens when 1 person expects continuous submission no matter what.

submission in modern africa is like anything else, okay in moderation. i shud be able to swallow my pride and admit when he knows better than i do or to make peace after an argument by conceding a point. i can't always be right and that's fine. but i hate the idea of submitting just because. especially when he is suggesting something wrong. i will treat my fellow man and woman with respect, but im not going to bow and scrape before anyone.

[okiedokes]

I must apologize in advance if this response deviates somewhat from the topic but there's a few things worth mentioning.

I get your point al-zalzalah but I will respectfully disagree with you on some aspects. What I mean is that african traditions(and many others) have not adopted a modern concept as far as being "submissive" is concerned. You make good points but you do realise that those are individual choices people are now making.

More and more african parents are deciding to educate their female children as well. It's not because one "clause" in the tradition has been revised. Rather it is because parents now see the importance of education as a whole regardless of gender. There is no aspect of tradition that condemns the maltreatment of women, rather in a twisted way one can argue that it serves to promote it. Although some progress has been made, a greater majority of people still follow tradition in its entirety and practice ALL its archaic rules regardless of how detrimental it may be. That is the lot I am concerned about. If you can be objective enough you would realise that a greater part of tradition controls a woman's life but fails to think about the long term repercussions.

Before the likes of MUK, Kemi, etc come talking trash here(as usual), this is by no means a feminist movement(not that I care what y'all think anyway).

This is about the injustices faced by a female child from the time she is even conceived to her death. In some part of India when a woman gives birth and realizes it's a girl, she may abandon the baby at the hospital especially if she already has many female children. This is because it is very expensive "marrying them off".

In India a female pays the groom's family a dowry to be married. Sometimes the groom's mother may order the death of her daughter-in-law for one reason or another to "protect the honor of the family". These are referred to as honor "honor killings" and it is frequent in England so much so that they are now working on a Bill to protect women prone to it.

When you read about such atrocities and hear from victims too, it is rather disheartening to read such appalling comments from some men in this forum especially when issues affecting women are concerned. It is not so much about equality as it is about the just treatment of every human being.

[KEMINOKANA]

Originally Posted by okiedokes

I must apologize in advance if this response deviates somewhat from the topic but there's a few things worth mentioning.

I get your point al-zalzalah but I will respectfully disagree with you on some aspects. What I mean is that african traditions(and many others) have not adopted a modern concept as far as being "submissive" is concerned. You make good points but you do realise that those are individual choices people are now making.

More and more african parents are deciding to educate their female children as well. It's not because one "clause" in the tradition has been revised. Rather it is because parents now see the importance of education as a whole regardless of gender. There is no aspect of tradition that condemns the maltreatment of women, rather in a twisted way one can argue that it serves to promote it. Although some progress has been made, a greater majority of people still follow tradition in its entirety and practice ALL its archaic rules regardless of how detrimental it may be. That is the lot I am concerned about. If you can be objective enough you would realise that a greater part of tradition controls a woman's life but fails to think about the long term repercussions.

Before the likes of MUK, Kemi, etc come talking trash here(as usual), this is by no means a feminist movement(not that I care what y'all think anyway).

This is about the injustices faced by a female child from the time she is even conceived to her death. In some part of India when a woman gives birth and realizes it's a girl, she may abandon the baby at the hospital especially if she already has many female children. This is because it is very expensive "marrying them off".

In India a female pays the groom's family a dowry to be married. Sometimes the groom's mother may order the death of her daughter-in-law for one reason or another to "protect the honor of the family". These are referred to as honor "honor killings" and it is frequent in England so much so that they are now working on a Bill to protect women prone to it.

When you read about such atrocities and hear from victims too, it is rather disheartening to read such appalling comments from some men in this forum especially when issues affecting women are concerned. It is not so much about equality as it is about the just treatment of every human being.

You are simply ranting and bringing irrelevant issues of your own to the topic at hand. You are just stuck on stupid or mavi as you keep saying.

Nowhere did we say honor killing = submission.
Nowhere did we say paying dowry = submission.
Nowhere did we say not educating females = submission.

You are just ranting on and on like somehow we just came out of a bottle and met Okiedokes the great human rights activist to educate us on the rather obvious. What a dolt. We were talking about submission in marriage and by your own admission you havent a clue what that means.

Now you think you will intimidate me(or us) with your insults. I bit my tongue and you keep going on and on. You think I dont know who you are fool. Keep going with your insults and you will surely smell your favorite smell: feces. For now I'll just not mind you bi.tch.

[msema ukweli Kabisa]

Okie dokie, you would notice i never for once insulted you or your ideas, I may have called your notion convoluted, or one of your premise silly, (rather should have used naive)

By your very strong worded responses and the anger directed to me and Kemi despite our points its easy to see that there is more than meets the eye. One may be either you come from a backgroung where a man overused their head of the family status, it may be either relatives neighbors or even your own family. Or two you are still going through that metamophosis of trying to find your place, you are educated, well placed in the society or even in a good career or a path to a good career, and for you, you believe a man and woman in a family are equal.

You mentioned India as an example gone wrong, but honesty you took it to the extreme, its if I was to use an example of alqueda when talking about islam. Lets get to the middle ground, with this in mind. The man loves the woman and the woman loves the man, Both are kenyan or african, well educated and in good careers.

So at this point I introduce the word submit. If you had read my 2nd thread I delibarately said that both partners submit to each other. But when it came to the structure of the family I said that PERSONALY (this is my truth not the truth) i believe that only one person can be the head of the family. Like in a well run corperation, in the board of directors, there is always the Chairman. remember decisions are never made by the chairman, rather by the whole group, when you talk about marriages same thing. Decisions are mutually made.

Now we are young, yet to get married, I am very soon getting married, But something very early on, I and my fiancee talked about is how we will run our family, mark you she is very well educated, and with a very good career. But we looked at the african model, picked what was good, looked at the judeo christian model and also took what we thought was good and relevant to us. and finally also learnt about the american society with its 50% failure rate of marriages but took what we thought was good esp finance part of it.

I dont know how old you are, and where you expect in your relationship. but one thing I have learnt is there is no absolutes, rather alot of compromises that compliment sumbission and love.

Now you can do what you do best and call me trash, and african and whatever else negative conotation you make out of us
adios till monday

[al-zalzalah]

Originally Posted by okiedokes

I get your point al-zalzalah but I will respectfully disagree with you on some aspects. What I mean is that african traditions(and many others) have not adopted a modern concept as far as being "submissive" is concerned. You make good points but you do realise that those are individual choices people are now making.

More and more african parents are deciding to educate their female children as well. It's not because one "clause" in the tradition has been revised. Rather it is because parents now see the importance of education as a whole regardless of gender. There is no aspect of tradition that condemns the maltreatment of women, rather in a twisted way one can argue that it serves to promote it. Although some progress has been made, a greater majority of people still follow tradition in its entirety and practice ALL its archaic rules regardless of how detrimental it may be. That is the lot I am concerned about. If you can be objective enough you would realise that a greater part of tradition controls a woman's life but fails to think about the long term repercussions.

cool.
but let me say this. this thing we call 'african tradition' today, much of it came into being in the 1920s and after, and is just what some power hungry patriarchs claim to be african tradition. when some men want to justify something oppressive, they claim it was part of our traditions. but when u examine those traditions u kuta that they're not being completely honest with u, and that those traditions had flexible rules and made exceptions in certain circumstances. some of our traditions were very disempowering of women. but within the same cultures are some practices that empower women.

anyway, for an example of what i'm talking about, return to that thread started by mo-uk about women staying in the home. type r changiad some very impressive points about woman not being as homebound traditionally as we claim they were.

i think culture is supposed to adapt to the situation. if im a woman married to a gambling addict, there's no way in hell id listen to this idea ati wives shud submit to their husbands in all matters. yaani even school fees he wants to gamble away i just give him coz tradition says so? hell no! any culture that just follows all rules blindly because some kazae set them 500 yrs ago has lost touch. and i don't care if the kazae in qtn was a disciple or a prophet. common sense lazima we apply, that's why the good Lord gave us brains.

there are many reasonable men out there who think things out thoughtfully and don't have the inferiority complex inspired type of tyranny. somebody like that, most women would gladly walk in step with.