[sdolphin]

Now why would anyone want to kiss that? That one i'll just take to a dentist and i'll even offer to foot the bill.
I don't think that comparision was a good idea

[fiery_preacher]

Let me share some interesting facts about circumcision.

1.Majority of world people prefer not to be circumcised.

Although approximately 80-85% of the world's adult males remain genitally intact (Lang, 1986; Wallerstein, 1985; Williams & Kapila, 1993), an estimated 650 million males alive today nevertheless have been circumcised (Hammond, 1999). In the United States alone, each year 1.2 million males are circumcised shortly after birth (National Center for Health Statistics, 1998). In addition, the social anthropological literature on ritual circumcision in non-western cultures (see Gollaher, 2000) indicates that circumcision of boys during late childhood also is commonplace.

2.Circumcision produces a male who is less sexually excitable.

Documented cases exist of circumcision resulting in a life-impairing level of castration anxiety (Ozturk, 1973). More recently, Immerman and Mackey (1998) described circumcision as "low-grade neurological castration." They argued that the resultant glans keratinisation and neurological atrophy of sexual brain circuitry (due to loss of sensory input to the brain's pleasure centre) may serve as a social control mechanism which produces a male who is less sexually excitable and therefore more amenable to social conditioning.Due to the neurological injury caused by circumcision, and the resultant reduction of sensory feedback (Immerman & Mackey, 1998), it is highly likely that circumcision may promote sexual dysfunction such as premature ejaculation, and consequently, also the reduction of female sexual pleasure (cf. Money & Davison, 1983). The possible deleterious effects on social and marital relationships (cf. Hughes, 1990) may be considerable, especially in countries where most men have been circumcised.

3.Circumcision may impair sexual sensation and affect natural curvature of the penis.

Gemmell and Boyle also found that a significantly higher proportion of circumcised as compared with intact men reported bowing or curvature of the penis (also reported by Lawrence, 1997), shaft skin uncomfortably/painfully tight when erect, and scars/damage to the penis. Although the frenulum was reported as an area of heightened erogenous sensitivity, in the typical circumcised male, either no frenulum remains or only a small severely damaged remnant exists. The complex innervation of the foreskin and frenulum has been well-documented (Cold & McGrath, 1999; Cold & Taylor, 1999; Fleiss, 1997; Taylor et al., 1996), and the genitally intact male has thousands of fine touch receptors and other highly erogenous nerve endings--many of which are lost to circumcision, with an inevitable reduction in sexual sensation experienced by circumcised males

4.Circumcision might cause premature ejaculation.
Circumcised males may also be at risk of premature ejaculation, or alternatively may have to resort to prolonged thrusting during intercourse in order to stimulate sufficiently the residual erogenous penile nerve endings to trigger ejaculation (Bensley & Boyle, 2001). They report that the unnatural dryness of their circumcised penis often makes coitus painful, resulting in chafing and/or skin abrasions (Gemmell & Boyle, 2001). Concomitantly, O'Hara and O'Hara (1999) found that female partners reported significantly greater sexual pleasure from intercourse with genitally intact men as compared with circumcised men. Money and Davison (1983) had previously documented a loss of stretch receptors in the prepuce and frenulum and an associated diminution in sexual response, thereby restricting a circumcised man's ability to achieve arousal. Consequently, erectile dysfunction may be a complication of male circumcision (Glover, 1929; Ozkara, Asicioglu, Alici, Akkus, & Hattat, 1999; Palmer & Link, 1979; Stief, Thon, Djamilian, Allhoff, & Jonas, 1992; Stinson, 1973).

5.Majority of uncircumcised men are happy with their sexual performance with women than circumcised men

Bensley and Boyle (2001) surveyed women who had previously had sexual intercourse with both genitally intact and circumcised men. Bensley and Boyle's samples comprised 35 women. In addition they surveyed 83 self-selected men (53 circumcised; 30 genitally intact) who provided self-reports regarding their sexual and psychological functioning. The overall results (women partners ) were that circumcised partners were significantly less happy about their sexual functioning than were genitally intact partners.

[YB*]

Information 1.2:

Part of the education and training given to young initiates is/was to conduct themselves in a becoming manner, meaning they had now passed from childhood and were now mature and on their way to be responsible adults, fathers, and eventual elders, if that particular culture tribe had a warrior class, then that was the case.

Part of the training and teaching included standing out and being different from what one was before the initiation rites and also different from the women, with Bantus, women are classified differently though not very inferior to men, infact in many Bantu cultures for example the kikuyu, there is evidence of a matriarchal period in society.

Having said that, there are things that are an absolute no go area for both sexes, there are things that are unacceptable for men to do while there are things that are unacceptable for women to do. It is acceptable (and amusing really) for women to go off on verbal fights publicly, I mean its not encouraged but should it happen, this was interpreted as a form of verbal fight when tensions between women were high, it is unacceptable for men to engage in such, too many useless words and display of unnecessary emotion over sometimes trivial issues. Ester I hope that answers your questions on where the men are??

In all cultures women have been the gatekeepers of culture – it is said without women then culture would vanish!! And when women are doing this (which they do very well and kudos to them) men tend not to interrupt. And quite honestly some issues are quite relevant to women but very irrelevent to men and vice - versa

Owing to the mentorship and training of the male mind during, and immediately after the initiation (for the Bantus), there was a marked difference in world view between the before and after, it was during this period that the men were given full disclosure of things like, the birds and the bees, internal-external politics, societal responsibilities etc – the whole rite takes about 2 months with daily lectures by elders and peers, in kikuyu culture for sex education / instruction they actually watched a man having sex with a woman, when they were barely healed, (provided a lot of sexual stimulation while at the same time it was very painful)

So to the kikuyu an uncircumcised man is one who has not had the opportunity to become a man symbolically (actual cutting of foreskin) and practically (lifeskills education) and to emphasize the need to pass through the rite, the women were / are on parallel taught and conditioned not to accept or even engage with uncircumcised men, this ensured that such a man would never get a partner and would be the scorn of the entire village if not clan. This was also encouraged for medical reasons history tells.

Finally Ester (still on your where are the men qn), What can we men say about the pleasure a di.ck gives??? We are not the recipients of that pleasure, and only a silly man, maybe stupid even would premise the same argument on a declaration made during the throes of passion! Oooh you are the best !! - (having seen enuff mashada posts, I would like to get the womens comments on this).

So only a woman can tell us whether they get pleasure from either circumcised or uncircumcised di.cks, its just strange when I see men (sic) banging their heads on that particular point, (unless you have experienced it, you can only be told), I would expect this thread to discuss actual issues like culture, health advantage medically (from the men though not excluding women) and the pleasure delivery points from the women. (Excluding men (unless gay) - I could be wrong)

[KILL PROPAGANDA]

Originally Posted by YB*

Information 1.2:

Part of the education and training given to young initiates is/was to conduct themselves in a becoming manner, meaning they had now passed from childhood and were now mature and on their way to be responsible adults, fathers, and eventual elders, if that particular culture tribe had a warrior class, then that was the case.

Part of the training and teaching included standing out and being different from what one was before the initiation rites and also different from the women, with Bantus, women are classified differently though not very inferior to men, infact in many Bantu cultures for example the kikuyu, there is evidence of a matriarchal period in society.

Having said that, there are things that are an absolute no go area for both sexes, there are things that are unacceptable for men to do while there are things that are unacceptable for women to do. It is acceptable (and amusing really) for women to go off on verbal fights publicly, I mean its not encouraged but should it happen, this was interpreted as a form of verbal fight when tensions between women were high, it is unacceptable for men to engage in such, too many useless words and display of unnecessary emotion over sometimes trivial issues. Ester I hope that answers your questions on where the men are??

In all cultures women have been the gatekeepers of culture – it is said without women then culture would vanish!! And when women are doing this (which they do very well and kudos to them) men tend not to interrupt. And quite honestly some issues are quite relevant to women but very irrelevent to men and vice - versa

Owing to the mentorship and training of the male mind during, and immediately after the initiation (for the Bantus), there was a marked difference in world view between the before and after, it was during this period that the men were given full disclosure of things like, the birds and the bees, internal-external politics, societal responsibilities etc – the whole rite takes about 2 months with daily lectures by elders and peers, in kikuyu culture for sex education / instruction they actually watched a man having sex with a woman, when they were barely healed, (provided a lot of sexual stimulation while at the same time it was very painful)

So to the kikuyu an uncircumcised man is one who has not had the opportunity to become a man symbolically (actual cutting of foreskin) and practically (lifeskills education) and to emphasize the need to pass through the rite, the women were / are on parallel taught and conditioned not to accept or even engage with uncircumcised men, this ensured that such a man would never get a partner and would be the scorn of the entire village if not clan. This was also encouraged for medical reasons history tells.

Finally Ester (still on your where are the men qn), What can we men say about the pleasure a di.ck gives??? We are not the recipients of that pleasure, and only a silly man, maybe stupid even would premise the same argument on a declaration made during the throes of passion! Oooh you are the best !! - (having seen enuff mashada posts, I would like to get the womens comments on this).

So only a woman can tell us whether they get pleasure from either circumcised or uncircumcised di.cks, its just strange when I see men (sic) banging their heads on that particular point, (unless you have experienced it, you can only be told), I would expect this thread to discuss actual issues like culture, health advantage medically (from the men though not excluding women) and the pleasure delivery points from the women. (Excluding men (unless gay) - I could be wrong)

Please read the post by Fiery Preacher just before yours.

[YB*]

Originally Posted by KILL PROPAGANDA

Please read the post by Fiery Preacher just before yours.

Which I have by the way, but it is moot because for every "for" argument theres an "against" argument?

Secondly, owingto the level the thread has become, a sectionalised report does not capture the african interpretation of "circumcision" and everything thats attached to it, and maybe thats where people dont understand each other. Read the bit about what goes on during circumcision, then you understand the bantu (lets stick to kenyan bantu) perception and disrespect for uncircumcised men.

You must understand the socio-cultural implication of it!!!!

Am sure someone will refute FP argument with other quotes, kidogo we shall go into a "quoting and reference argument" - pointless really

[KILL PROPAGANDA]

Originally Posted by YB*

Information 1.2:

Part of the training and teaching included standing out and being different from what one was before the initiation rites and also different from the women, with Bantus, women are classified differently though not very inferior to men, infact in many Bantu cultures for example the kikuyu, there is evidence of a matriarchal period in society.

I have already given you evidence that the practise of male circumcision is not univerally practised by all Bantu people. please stop equating kikuyu culture with Bantu culture.

Originally Posted by YB*

Information 1.2:

Having said that, there are things that are an absolute no go area for both sexes, there are things that are unacceptable for men to do while there are things that are unacceptable for women to do. It is acceptable (and amusing really) for women to go off on verbal fights publicly, I mean its not encouraged but should it happen, this was interpreted as a form of verbal fight when tensions between women were high, it is unacceptable for men to engage in such, too many useless words and display of unnecessary emotion over sometimes trivial issues. Ester I hope that answers your questions on where the men are??

Funny thing is: you are right now engaging in useless words and throwing around silly arguments without any research to back up your ignorant ramblings.
I detect a sexist tone is your words but I leave that to the women to judge.

Originally Posted by YB*

Information 1.2:

Owing to the mentorship and training of the male mind during, and immediately after the initiation (for the Bantus), there was a marked difference in world view between the before and after, it was during this period that the men were given full disclosure of things like, the birds and the bees, internal-external politics, societal responsibilities etc – the whole rite takes about 2 months with daily lectures by elders and peers, in kikuyu culture for sex education / instruction they actually watched a man having sex with a woman, when they were barely healed, (provided a lot of sexual stimulation while at the same time it was very painful)

obviously pornography and voyeurism are not new things in certain parts of our country.

Originally Posted by YB*

Information 1.2:

So to the kikuyu an uncircumcised man is one who has not had the opportunity to become a man symbolically (actual cutting of foreskin) and practically (lifeskills education) and to emphasize the need to pass through the rite, the women were / are on parallel taught and conditioned not to accept or even engage with uncircumcised men, this ensured that such a man would never get a partner and would be the scorn of the entire village if not clan. This was also encouraged for medical reasons history tells.

This is kikuyu culture. no need to tell us about it because we frankly do not care. tell it to the young kikuyu boys who want to become circumcised kikuyu men.

Originally Posted by YB*

Information 1.2:

So only a woman can tell us whether they get pleasure from either circumcised or uncircumcised di.cks, its just strange when I see men (sic) banging their heads on that particular point, (unless you have experienced it, you can only be told), I would expect this thread to discuss actual issues like culture, health advantage medically (from the men though not excluding women) and the pleasure delivery points from the women. (Excluding men (unless gay) - I could be wrong)

it is equally silly to see grown men bleating and foaming at the mouth for weeks on end, going on and on about other men's penises.

[KILL PROPAGANDA]

Originally Posted by YB*

Which I have by the way, but it is moot because for every "for" argument theres an "against" argument?

Secondly, owingto the level the thread has become, a sectionalised report does not capture the african interpretation of "circumcision" and everything thats attached to it, and maybe thats where people dont understand each other. Read the bit about what goes on during circumcision, then you understand the bantu (lets stick to kenyan bantu) perception and disrespect for uncircumcised men.

You must understand the socio-cultural implication of it!!!!

Am sure someone will refute FP argument with other quotes, kidogo we shall go into a "quoting and reference argument" - pointless really

There is no such thing as an African interpretation of circumcision. just a kikuyu interpretation, Luhya interpretation, Kalenjin interpretation, Somali interpretation, Luo interpretation etc.

The Luhya for instance practise circumcision, but they do not in any way despise their neoghbours the Luo and Teso who do not. same to the Kalenjin and Maasai.

But judging from this thread and the politics section of this forum, Kikuyus seem to have a fixation about penises.
I wonder what this obsession by adult men about other men's penises is all about.

[YB*]

Originally Posted by KILL PROPAGANDA

There is no such thing as an African interpretation of circumcision. just a kikuyu interpretation, Luhya interpretation, Kalenjin interpretation, Somali interpretation, Luo interpretation etc.

The Luhya for instance practise circumcision, but they do not in any way despise their neoghbours the Luo and Teso who do not. same to the Kalenjin and Maasai.

But judging from this thread and the politics section of this forum, Kikuyus seem to have a fixation about penises.
I wonder what this obsession by adult men about other men's penises is all about.

I will let the post before this ride for now (will address it later), and for this, lets say just because the 2 groups Luo and Kikuyu have always been rivals, the animosity will always be more visible. Just because the 2 big boys in class hate each other does not mean the smaller boys dont have issues of their own!!

Luhyas and Tesos, fit perfectly to the example you gave yesterday, where the baganda were colonised by a luo speaking tribe, (am guessing its Luo still). These 2 cultures have grown together historically and they have no reason not to co-exist, probably initially there was attrition - very probable fact there.

Kikuyus have historically never been around such a culture (uncircumcision), even the plain nilotes (maasai) and the highland nilotes (kalenjin) to the west, somali, borana to the east and north, south is all bantu that circumcise. Throw them together and you imagine in less than 50 yrs (really start counting from independence), you expect attitude to change, not forgetting it was the same subject that was used politically, like what we saw in the recent past to create an 'us' and 'them' situation.

So i would expect a better comment other than an obsession with penis comment coz surely you know thats not what its about, but i guess its necessary so as to keep the same us and them spirit here too.

I dont have the numbers, or maybe its my locale, but it seems to me kikuyu and luo inter- marry each more other more than kalenjin-luo, maasai-luo (its a fact tesos, luhyas and luos intermarry freely)

[KILL PROPAGANDA]

YB, While we may agree on some issues, I believe in this issue I can humbly beg to differ with you on certain points.

I do not think Kikuyus and Luos as ethnic groups are rivals, maybe the political elite from both groups are rivals but I wouldn't want to extend the rivalry to the ordinary populace of both communities.

Kikuyus are not the only Bantu ethnic group to have been unexposed to uncircumcised peoples prior to independance. the Kamba who neighbour the Kikuyu were similary isolated from the Luos yet I rarely hear inflamatory derisive talk about uncircumcised Luos from them. similary the Somalis, even the Waswahili at the Coast. the entire Coastal strip is made up of communities that circumcise, but do we hear the Coasterians go on and on about circumcision or lack of it?

Plus, in Kenya, kikuyus are probably the most heterogenous tribe having converted to Christianity and received formal education earlier than most tribes not to mention the proximity of Central Province to Nairobi. How is it possible that in spite of all this they arre still the most hostile to uncircumcised peoples, even more than people from remote places as Mwingi, Mwatate, Mandera etc.

About intermarriage. I would agree with your statement if you were to limit it to Nairobi. for obvious reasons, kikuyus are the majority in Nairobi. until recently there weren't many Kalenjins and Maasais in the estates in Nairobi. for a young Luo man whose home is 500km away, the probability of meeting and falling in love with a kikuyu girl next door is much higher than meeting a kalenjin girl or even a Luo girl. Pure statistics, nothing else.

but in the rural areas where the communities border each other, for instance in Muhoroni and Sondu, Luo-Kalenjin marriages are the norm, in South Nyanza, it is normal to see Luo-Kisii marriages, similarly in Migori, Luo-Maasai mariages are not uncommon.

To reverse your argument, in a place like Kisumu for instance, isn't it more likely to see a Kikuyu-Luo marriage than perhaps a Kikuyu-Kamba one. But i wouldn't expect the same in Maragua or Thika.

Luo-Luhya marriages are so common in Siaya, Busia and Vihiga, it is not clear where the boundary between the two ethnic groups is. rumour has it that even the grandfather of Raila, Oginga Odinga's father was a Luhya. It is also possible that Barrack Obama has some Luhyaness in him. meanwhile, Moody Awori, Paul Otuoma even though classified as Luhya are quite likely to have a strong Luo presence in them.

[dotNet]

Am still waitin for someone to comment on the diff while its in there for the ladies.