Ati Killing innocent People is Fighting for Democracy. What a Psychopath?

[francefrench]

[QUOTE=mak&emoto;667128]I said, take a chill pill, the youth will be released very soon, just wait and see.

Thousands of ODM youth have been arrested indiscriminately and held incommunicado in police cells throughout Nairobi, Nyanza, Western and the Rift Valley.

Despite holding them for months, the police are yet to adduced any evidence in court to support their case against those being held on these trumped up criminal charges. Most however have not been charged with anything, they are instead being "BONDED TO KEEP PEACE" WTF. Somehow, this is only targeting ODM youth, No one was arrested in Naivasha despite the atrocities committed in the name of revenge!

In plain words, if these youth are not released, those purportedly being resettled may as well forget about peace as they are likely to face the wrath of the host communities.

I think your argument (in bold) is clear and straight. I just do not understand how these "advisers" could dare tread on a scar that is not healed in such a foolhardy manner.

Believing that by forcing the IDPs to their respective lands and failing to free the youths most of whom are innocent defies any peace seeking logic.

Every party should feel comforted.

Most of these politicians crying for the rule of law are the very once who were gleeing as police went around shooting every luo and Kalenjin through criminal orders.

But it is strangely interesting that the hunted(PNU) is trying to take the role of the hunter (the people).

[lavidanor]

First and foremost, mark this so that you don't misunderstand waht I am saying: I don't condone anybody killing anybody for any reason

That said, I wonder why power mongers must see blood before they ease out on power. Based on this read history. There is no freedom (read democracy) without the shedding of blood.

On that note, may I raise a question: How do people who summarily condemn the youth murderers evaluate Mau Mau who killed innocent Whites and collaborators? What legacy do you accord them?

What is the position of the government that sanctioned the execution of demonstrators who were not even armed? In My book, a government that does this is worse than the rowdy uninstitutionalised youth that go on a killing spree.

The root problem of the violence must come to bear.

I hate double standards with perfect hatred.

There is no denying that murderers should be prosecuted, the only problem is that the government of the day lacks the moral authority to do so. Remember the case of the woman who was caught in adultery in the Bible. She was not executed, not because she didn't sin but because those who wanted to execute her lacked the moral authority to do so, she was released (John 8).

Why does the sitting government lack the moral authority?
Before the Grand Coalition, i.e. PNU, ECK and the then government behaved in ways that cannot be ignored--the root problem lies with them, robbery with vilolence, punishable by death. After the Coalition, ODM cannot support the prosecution of the youth because the bitter truth and which is also a paradox is that ODM got into power because of the blood that the youth spill. Do you see my point? Can't this make any sense to the prepucephobic chauvinists.

You may consider these tribal and cultural bigotries simple but they only help isolate you. We think with our heads, not with a bald Glans P.( I mean bald head of male organ). When you wake up from this diatribe as other Kenyans have, we will then begin to have ONE Kenya, where a Kiuk can appreciate leadership qualities from other communities.

[danielwaweru]

Originally Posted by mak&emoto

Now, Instead of payukaring here, can you table evidence or quote exactly where Raila or any ODMer has called on the government to release "goons who killed innocent people, looted and burnt property"?

Ruto demanded the release of wale waliofunga barabara. Any ODMer is too easy a test.

What Raila, Ruto and the rest of the ODMers are calling for is the equitable application of the law. These are the facts:

1. Thousands of ODM youth have been arrested in ODM strongholds on the suspicion that they participated in criminal activities related to the post election chaos.

According to the figures I've seen, significantly fewer. Suspicion is a lawful ground for arrest (See Section 72(3)b of the Constitution)

2. Majority of these youth have been held for months without being charged in court, the few who have been charged are yet to even take their pleas in court due to institutionalized judicial ineptitude.

Perhaps. Or the deliberate creation of mayhem in ODM-friendly areas. ODMers can hardly attack and murder civil servants, and destroy government property, and then complain when there is a delay in delivering services to them.

3. In Kenya's judicial system, before a suspect is charged with a criminal offense in court, the AG's chambers is required to peruse the evidence on file and give consent for prosecution. This has not been done in any of those cases!

No such requirement. Indeed, citizens of Kenya can institute private prosecutions without the consent of the A-G.

4. The youth who have not been charged in court are being "Bonded to Keep Peace" at a cost of Kshs. 50,000.00 per person.

Certainly not all of them have, and probably not many. That they have been bonded is proof of due process.

5. The Mungiki youth who implemented the evil Kikuyu agenda on innocent Kenyans in Naivasha have been granted amnesty.

No, and some evidence for the claim would be welcome. I know of arrests on suspicion of involvement in the SRVP violence.

So if there is no evidence to support the ODM youth being charged in court, why not just release them?

Or, consistent with your earlier claim, let the A-G make the decision?

[mak&emoto]

Originally Posted by dynamite

Mak&moto,
Amnesty: the definition is clear, for political offences. How is the burning of people, rape and looting a political offense?

Firstly, even if Mungiki perpetuated crimes, it does not excuse anybody else doing so. Moreover, Mungiki came to the fore in Naivasha and Nakuru in retaliation for the crimes committed before hand, and on the same note, yes, I agree with you that they too should be arrested if they havent already. (but haven't they? Isnt their leader already in jail and hundereds of the followers also in incarceration? Get your facts right on this one).

Bwana Wakili,
Enlighten me, what exactly are you pleading here? That "Extreme or Minor Provocation" should be considered as mitigating factor in considering the motive behind Mungikis criminal rampages in Naivasha. Are you seriously justifying those atrocities on account of provoked retaliation?

The leader of Mungiki was incarcerated long before the last parliament was even dissolved so let us not drag in non-points.

What we are calling for is that the government acts in good faith when apprehending suspects and that equal application of the rule of law be observed.

Originally Posted by dynamite

Secondly, if the likes of Raila, Orengo etc were serious about the release dont they have a battery of lawyers they can apply on a pro bono basis? If it is such a serious human rights issue, cant they get the KHRC or the numerous human rights bodies involved to secure the releases? They havent done so because they realize that it would raise more issues about who sponsored the youths, organized them and gave them weapons.

Raila, Orengo, etc. are on record as calling for release of the youth, does that make them jointly culpable. I don't think so, but if that is your reasoning then do you suppose that the KHRC should be held jointly culpable with Mungiki for its criminal activities since the former has been demanding that the Police follow "due process" in handling them. What then will you say of the Central Province leaders seeking out favors for Mungiki youth.

Originally Posted by dynamite

Ah yes, the perpetual argument about the judiciary being biased. If that was the case, how come when Ruto was being accused of corruption you were happy to say that the courts should try him and find him guilty? The trend by ODM and ODMers is whenever there is a legal issue that could be detrimental you are happy to say the courts are biased, yet on the same note when the courts have provided relief or in the case of Ruto not completed the process you are happy to say that the justice system should run its course. Make a choice, more over, have some intellectual honesty about it.

The ineptitude and bias institutionalized in the Kenyan judicial system is a matter of official Kenya Government record. Remember the purge? So let us not waste time debating facts.

As for Ruto, he was charged in 2003 together with others of grabbing public land and selling the same to a government institution while acting on behalf of KANU (A PNU Coalition Partner). To date, this case has not proceeded beyond the taking of pleas and hearing of preliminary evidence, it is mired in prosecution requested adjournments. If the facts of the case are so clear and yet it is going nowhere, isn't it obvious that this is a political case instituted to blackmail him.

ODMers support the rule of law when applied equally.

Originally Posted by dynamite

There must be no relief, anyone, i repeat ANYONE who was involved in the violence and crimes must be arrested and punished. No Amnesty.

Did you mean to say that there is a need to investigate, arrest and try to logical conclusion all those suspected of involvement in violence and crimes? We are not operating Kangaroo Courts here where you just arrest and punish people on the basis of suspicion.

Like I stated before, I support amnesty for those being bonded to keep peace and those who plead guilty to or are charged with misdemeanors like blocking roads, uprooting railways and protesting. I however, agree with you on the need to charge the criminal elements.

[mak&emoto]

Originally Posted by danielwaweru

Ruto demanded the release of wale waliofunga barabara. Any ODMer is too easy a test.



According to the figures I've seen, significantly fewer. Suspicion is a lawful ground for arrest (See Section 72(3)b of the Constitution)

Perhaps. Or the deliberate creation of mayhem in ODM-friendly areas. ODMers can hardly attack and murder civil servants, and destroy government property, and then complain when there is a delay in delivering services to them.

No such requirement. Indeed, citizens of Kenya can institute private prosecutions without the consent of the A-G.

Certainly not all of them have, and probably not many. That they have been bonded is proof of due process.

No, and some evidence for the claim would be welcome. I know of arrests on suspicion of involvement in the SRVP violence.

Or, consistent with your earlier claim, let the A-G make the decision?

From the clip you have posted, it's very clear that William Ruto is referring to the youth who blocked the roads. There is no mention of him or any other ODMer calling for the release of those charged with looting, assault, arson or murder. That claim is a mongrel created by yourselves just like the many others you created before the elections. Provide the proof.

The rest of your comments are neither here nor there.

[flexxxx]

Originally Posted by mak&emoto

From the clip you have posted, it's very clear that William Ruto is referring to the youth who blocked the roads. There is no mention of him or any other ODMer calling for the release of those charged with looting, assault, arson or murder. That claim is a mongrel created by yourselves just like the many others you created before the elections. Provide the proof.

The rest of your comments are neither here nor there.

'Targeted for marrying a Kikuyu'



Professor David Habel Odongo, from the Luo ethnic group, married his wife, a Kikuyu lady, more than 20 years ago. All this time, they have lived in Dunga in western Kenya. But he tells the BBC's Muliro Telewa why, in the inter-ethnic post-election violence, his family's livelihood has been lost and his wife's life threatened.

I was targeted because I am married to a Kikuyu.

There is no other reason why they should have attacked me and identified me.

They were attacking selectively.

At about 0830 local time (0530 GMT), a big group of people not numbering less than 300, wielding pangas [machetes] and axes, came to my guest house and hacked the gate down.

Some ran, charging straight in, broke the windows and literally everything. Not even just breaking - some were smashing things onto the floor.

Why, why, why?

They took away a lot of things; maybe 50 tables and gas cylinders.


This lady, like Professor Odongo's wife, had to flee for her life

Why, why, why? Why did they say they were doing this?

They did not come to argue or to listen to my pleas. I asked them, now, why have you come to destroy my things? I am a fellow Luo like yourselves.

None of them could answer me.

In fact, they were shouting. They didn't even want to listen to me.

They just marched in and broke into all the rooms, took away all the bedding, the mattresses, the beds, the mosquito nettings - anything that they could lay their hands on.

The total cost of what has been destroyed is 13-15m Kenyan shillings ($180,000-210,000).

Tribal issue

I have been married to my wife for over 20 years and I have lived in Dunga for all that time with my lady. We have grown up children - they are at high schools in Uganda.

Last night, I sent my wife away because after those people destroyed everything we had, they said they would come for her.

So the police rescued her and my mother-in-law, who had been visiting. We took them to the airport and got them tickets and flew them to Nairobi.

I have since called the chief of the area where the attackers came from, asking him to come and talk to his people.

It's a tribal issue the fact that I am married to a Kikuyu.

They don't see her as Odongo's wife, they see her as a Kikuyu.

[danielwaweru]

Originally Posted by mak&emoto

From the clip you have posted, it's very clear that William Ruto is referring to the youth who blocked the roads.

And we all know the means by which they did it in the RVP: roadblocks at which those of the 'wrong' ethnicity were murdered. Several members of the Pentagon demanded the release of Jackson Kibor; there is good evidence that he incited, planned and funded the post-election murders in and around Eldoret. And of course, you yourself have previously argued on this board that ethnic violence was both necessary and justified - presumably, it follows that any punishment for it is unjust.

There is no mention of him or any other ODMer calling for the release of those charged with looting, assault, arson or murder. That claim is a mongrel created by yourselves just like the many others you created before the elections. Provide the proof.

As above.

The rest of your comments are neither here nor there.

Well, they do tend to show that the claims on which your case rests are false. (Incidentally, your claim that there have been no arrests for retaliatory violence is false.)

[danielwaweru]

Originally Posted by mak&emoto

From the clip you have posted, it's very clear that William Ruto is referring to the youth who blocked the roads. There is no mention of him or any other ODMer calling for the release of those charged with looting, assault, arson or murder. That claim is a mongrel created by yourselves just like the many others you created before the elections. Provide the proof.

The rest of your comments are neither here nor there.

Today's Standard makes my point:

ODM leaders, including Raila, have been calling for blanket amnesty. They argue that the youths are ‘soldiers of democracy’ who made the formation of the Grand Coalition Government possible.

[mak&emoto]

Originally Posted by danielwaweru

today's standard makes my point:

odm leaders, including raila, have been calling for blanket amnesty. They argue that the youths are ‘soldiers of democracy’ who made the formation of the grand coalition government possible.

Waweru,
The standard newspaper is not an odm public communication's organ. Secondly, while reading a newspaper article, at the very least, separate opined pieces from reported facts.

The "blanket amnesty" call as reported by standard or any other news-media for that matter, is not corroborated by hard facts and in that i mean sound clips or documentary proof of raila calling for blanket amnesty. Now, i know you will wanna argue that raila has not denied or sought to clarify these reports, but considering the number of allegations flying in these newspapers on him, he'd have to spend 100% of his time answering these.

So if as i see, you consider newspaper reports as the gospel truth, then it would be redundant for me to try and convince you otherwise.

[mak&emoto]

Originally Posted by danielwaweru

and we all know the means by which they did it in the rvp: roadblocks at which those of the 'wrong' ethnicity were murdered. Several members of the pentagon demanded the release of jackson kibor; there is good evidence that he incited, planned and funded the post-election murders in and around eldoret. And of course, you yourself have previously argued on this board that ethnic violence was both necessary and justified - presumably, it follows that any punishment for it is unjust.

To start with, jackson kibor was charged with incitement, a misdemeanor charge that attracts probably a fine of kshs. 5,000/= with or 6 months jail. So, if you claim that there was "good evidence that he incited, planned and funded the post-election murders in and around eldoret" why then did kibaki's government (the grand coalition had not been formed) not charge him with a graver crime than they did and why did they enter a nolle prosequi? only gema kangaroo courts consider claims held as true in rampant pnu chain mail as "good evidence".

As for the catholic priest who was dispatched to meet with his maker at a supposedly odm road block, did you know that he was lynched (not murdered) and that he was not dressed in religious garb, hesitated to open his car boot when asked to and when it was forced open he was found to be carrying ungodly machetes in the boot of his car? now, i do not condone nor do i support those who lynched him, but i do understand the circumstances. These are the circumstances. After kibaki rigged himself back into power, in his wisdom or lack of it he proceeded to gag all media.

The sum effect was that everyone became a source or conveyor of information/disinformation. Under such circumstances and having witnessed the brutal killings of odm protesters by kibaki's security forces and then rumors flying all over rv and western kenya about government sponsored mungiki attacks, the youth manning that and other road blocks were bound to react as they did. Kibaki and his handlers are therefore to blame for that unfortunate incidence.

As for the necessity and justification of the chaos, i'll repeat my earlier comments...

Originally Posted by mak@emoto

i dare say that it was a necessary evil because in the face of police assisted mungiki onslaught, it was the only practical, viable and expedient avenue left to the protesting odmers.

Originally Posted by danielwaweru

well, they do tend to show that the claims on which your case rests are false. (incidentally, your claim that there have been no arrests for retaliatory violence is false.)

The standard newspaper article that you are referring to clearly outlines the institutionalized bias that we have been and still are up against. Clearly as reported and widely known, hundreds of mungiki youth were recruited by pnu leading lights to run amok in nakuru and naivasha where they proceeded to maim and hack to death hundreds of innocent non-kikuyus, the government then rounded up a few of them and charged them with the misdemeanor charge of "holding an illegal meeting and oathing!", why not charge them with assault, arson and murder? surely, do i need to explain further?